The Real 'Torture' Disgrace

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celticlord2112 -> The Real 'Torture' Disgrace (12/19/2008 12:31:04 PM)
The Real 'Torture' Disgrace Not that Carl Levin was ever anything BUT a disgrace....

Raechard -> RE: The Real 'Torture' Disgrace (12/19/2008 1:52:59 PM)
quote: As Mr. Levin put it in laying on his innuendo this week, a commission "may or may not lead to indictments or civil action." It will also encourage some grandstanding foreign prosecutor to arrest Mr. Rumsfeld and other Bush officials like Pinochet if they ever dare to leave the U.S. I always knew Pinochet was a Bush official, you only have to look at their foreign policy.[8\|]

Sanity -> RE: The Real 'Torture' Disgrace (12/19/2008 3:28:49 PM)
Good article CL. Thanks for posting it. Here's a paragraph that jumped out at me, in light of the arguments put fourth in the "Torture: Europe and Gitmo" thread: quote: We know that the most aggressive tactic ever authorized was waterboarding, which was used in only three cases against hardened, high-ranking al Qaeda operatives, including Abu Zubaydah after he was picked up in Pakistan in 2002. U.S. officials say the information he gave up foiled multiple terror plots and led to the capture of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the architect of 9/11. As Dick Cheney told ABC this week, "There was a time there, three or four years ago, when about half of everything we knew about al Qaeda came from one source" -- KSM. Waterboarding was used on only three high-ranking operatives? Well then! These were little more than "minor, isolated incidents" weren't they... Especially in comparison with the size and the scope of the terrorist organization these criminal terrorists represented, and the large numbers of innocent lives that were under threat.

Raechard -> RE: The Real 'Torture' Disgrace (12/19/2008 3:40:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Waterboarding was used on only three high-ranking operatives? Well then! These were little more than "minor, isolated incidents" weren't they... By high ranking we mean: Bin Laden's paper boy. By three we mean: this report was secretly altered by George Bush and only three of his fingers were available to count on at the time. They probably strictly defined the criteria in terms of what counts as water boarding and then found no boards were involved in the other cases.

Sanity -> RE: The Real 'Torture' Disgrace (12/19/2008 3:54:31 PM)
If by "paper boy" we mean top al-Qaeda officers who were planning massive terrorist attacks against civilian populations then I suppose we are in complete agreement. Otherwise, I would have to ask you to please try to be serious here... quote: By high ranking we mean: Bin Laden's paper boy.

Raechard -> RE: The Real 'Torture' Disgrace (12/19/2008 4:12:43 PM)
Have you ever read a report by someone with access to all the facts? I’d be surprised if you have as it’s practically unheard of for anyone, government or not, to have unfettered access. How it works: "I need to find out how many people were subject to water boarding" "OK ask Jim, he knows all that dark nasty stuff." "Hello Jim how many people were subject to water boarding" "Water boarding?, we don't do that kind of thing." "Come on Jim, this is me you are talking to." "OK three, no more no less, three was the exact number!" "Thanks." “Which three?” “We only tortured the ones we knew for sure were bad people and we knew this because our terrorist network intelligence is so great that we don’t have to torture people. My question is: did the person writing the report sit in on every interrogation? How is it the three times it was used it was used against 'high ranking officials?' and how exactly did they know these high ranking officials were high ranking officials, if they had such good intelligence as to who the high ranking officials are then how exactly did they lose track of these people or not see what they were planning in the first place? You'd have to torture a lot more than three people to know you are torturing the right three people, that much is obvious. Three cases my arse, no report can prove me wrong and no report can prove me right; the doubt has been cast it would be better if the doubt wasn’t there to begin with in terms of ‘does the US government widely use water boarding.’

popeye1250 -> RE: The Real 'Torture' Disgrace (12/19/2008 4:15:49 PM)
Waterboarding, pliers, baseball bats and blow torches should be used "liberally" on al qeada members.

kittinSol -> RE: The Real 'Torture' Disgrace (12/19/2008 4:20:04 PM)
And when anyone captures one of your braves, they will have the perfect reason to torture them. I think it's a fantastic idea: fuck the Habeas Corpus and all that antiquated stuff. The Inquisition: now, those guys had it together, baby.

Raechard -> RE: The Real 'Torture' Disgrace (12/19/2008 4:31:39 PM)
Besides being a member of Al Qaeda isn't like being a member of a library i.e. no membership card, instead a thousand people that will claim to be members when all they really are is angry individuals looking for some kind of reason to exist.

Owner59 -> RE: The Real 'Torture' Disgrace (12/19/2008 4:40:27 PM)
How do we know "just" three guys were tortured?And how many times were "just three" tortured? One really can`t believe anything the conservatives put out or source. There`s the fact that nothing coming out of the bush admin. has any credibility. There`s the fact the bush has a bunch of payed-off reporter lackies, putting out non-sense and mis-info for others to repeat,quote and link to. There`s the fact that the Dept. of Justice is exactly the opposite. And there`s the fact that Cheney just admitted to approving torture. These guys don`t know it(neo-cons),but they`re giving our enemies excuses and rational to torture our GIs and us,in their quest to excuse themselves.Selfish brats. It`s the close to eight years of lawlessness,thievery and treason that`s got the neo-cons/republicans antsy and looking for outs. Think about it. Has there ever been criminals who admitted to their crimes or didn`t lie about them?Or when caught,didn`t make excuses or try to hide behind patriotism? I say ,tell it to a jury.Let them decide. We`ll let the constitution guide the way,finally.

Sanity -> RE: The Real 'Torture' Disgrace (12/19/2008 4:40:36 PM)
Hmm. I don't quite understand what you are trying to say here. You seem to be saying that you don't want to believe the news reports, so you've decided to make up your own facts and call them just as good. Is that about right? quote: ORIGINAL: Raechard Have you ever read a report by someone with access to all the facts? I’d be surprised if you have as it’s practically unheard of for anyone, government or not, to have unfettered access. How it works: "I need to find out how many people were subject to water boarding" "OK ask Jim, he knows all that dark nasty stuff." "Hello Jim how many people were subject to water boarding" "Water boarding?, we don't do that kind of thing." "Come on Jim, this is me you are talking to." "OK three, no more no less, three was the exact number!" "Thanks." “Which three?” “We only tortured the ones we knew for sure were bad people and we knew this because our terrorist network intelligence is so great that we don’t have to torture people. My question is: did the person writing the report sit in on every interrogation? How is it the three times it was used it was used against 'high ranking officials?' and how exactly did they know these high ranking officials were high ranking officials, if they had such good intelligence as to who the high ranking officials are then how exactly did they lose track of these people or not see what they were planning in the first place? You'd have to torture a lot more than three people to know you are torturing the right three people, that much is obvious. Three cases my arse, no report can prove me wrong and no report can prove me right; the doubt has been cast it would be better if the doubt wasn’t there to begin with in terms of ‘does the US government widely use water boarding.’

Raechard -> RE: The Real 'Torture' Disgrace (12/19/2008 4:47:15 PM)
Sanity need I remind you that news reports aren't facts? I also basically said I have no idea how many have been water boarded but wouldn't it be better if I had no doubt? i.e. wouldn't it be better if people didn't condone such things and thus cause doubt in my mind?

Sanity -> RE: The Real 'Torture' Disgrace (12/19/2008 4:49:33 PM)
No one was "tortured" and only three very high ranking al-Qaeda operatives were waterboarded. And we know this the same way you know to post about any of it. In other words, it's noteworthy that you're politically selective as to which parts of what has been reported to believe. After all, it was all reported by the same sources, and there has been Congressional testimony, and these men have lawyers... none of it is a secret, really. quote: How do we know "just" three guys were tortured?And how many times were "just three" tortured.

corysub -> RE: The Real 'Torture' Disgrace (12/19/2008 4:50:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Raechard Besides being a member of Al Qaeda isn't like being a member of a library i.e. no membership card, instead a thousand people that will claim to be members when all they really are is angry individuals looking for some kind of reason to exist. I don't think you totally understand the radical muslim movement. This movement is not led by leaders out of the ghetto of Palistinian refugee camps or poverty stricken areas of Bierut or Nigeria. These are people who come out of the moslem brotherhood of 40 years ago, well-educated, disciplined and purposeful men who truly believe that they are on a mission from God! Many of them are wealthy beyond what we can imagine, Usama coming from one of the wealthiest families in Saudi Arabia. Listen to the President of Iran...he is carrying their message of Islamic conquest better than anyone blowing themselves up in a market full of women and children. From, Indonesia, the Phillippeans, and Bali, to Iran and Iraq, we had better face up to the challange. People who understand torture, who smile as they slice off the head of a prisoner, and laugh at us as we call putting panty hose over the heads of some prisoners in Iraq or waterboard a few terrorists several years ago. If the torture of one of these people saves just one life....it would be worth it. If the torture ...real torture not forcing them to listen to hours of Stephen Colbert....of dozens of them would save just one innocent....you have my vote.

celticlord2112 -> RE: The Real 'Torture' Disgrace (12/19/2008 4:54:34 PM)
quote: One really can`t believe anything the conservatives put out or source. Yeah, facts might force some reality into the equation, and that would just be too terrible to bear.[8\|]

Raechard -> RE: The Real 'Torture' Disgrace (12/19/2008 5:01:54 PM)
Anyone can state things as being facts it doesn't make them so. Political parties are incapable of producing facts however because that would require the thing to be observed without political bias and they are obviously inherently incapable of that. They may do it with good intensions but they’ll unintentionally or intentionally put a spin on it. Only recently in the UK the government was told off for using statistics in an erroneous way for political means.

celticlord2112 -> RE: The Real 'Torture' Disgrace (12/19/2008 5:07:38 PM)
quote: Political parties are incapable of producing facts So you acknowledge that Senator Levin's "report" is garbage?

Raechard -> RE: The Real 'Torture' Disgrace (12/19/2008 5:18:46 PM)
Yes...I would assume he wasn't present at any of the interrogations so what does he know? Far better to listen to the witnesses that were there and hear them describe events. However a lot of these witnesses are so dangerous apparently that contact with the outside world is forbidden and trials have to be held in secret. It doesn't look good, just like N. Korea doesn't look good to the outside world because we can’t see what is happening inside it. Perhaps nothing bad is happening there either, we’ve only seen the odd nasty picture from N. Korea every so often. We didn't see into Nazi concentration camps either until after world war two. History has shown that bad things happen in secret places where immunity from prosecution is a given. I don't trust human beings that keep things from me, never have, never will. Is every US guard good is every prisoner evil, I can't see that for sure. Worse still people condone mistreatment of prisoners.

Politesub53 -> RE: The Real 'Torture' Disgrace (12/19/2008 5:23:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity If by "paper boy" we mean top al-Qaeda officers who were planning massive terrorist attacks against civilian populations then I suppose we are in complete agreement. Otherwise, I would have to ask you to please try to be serious here... quote: By high ranking we mean: Bin Laden's paper boy. KSM was no paper boy for Bin Laden, here we have the man responsible for both attacks on the World Trade Centre. As well as many other terrorist attacks. He only joined Al Qaida a few years prior to 9/11 and presented the whole idea to Bin Laden.

Raechard -> RE: The Real 'Torture' Disgrace (12/19/2008 5:28:13 PM)
KSM can have a glorious death now he has conveniently admitted to those things, personally I wouldn’t believe a word that man said. Other evidence for his involvement hearsay. You have to treat any member of a terrorist organisation as being mentally ill.

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