Do you think by next spring the economy will be better? (Full Version)

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winterlight -> Do you think by next spring the economy will be better? (12/19/2008 6:21:27 PM)

I got this comment from somebody who posted and i am wondering if others feel the same way..




NeedToUseYou -> RE: Do you think by next spring the economy will be better? (12/19/2008 6:44:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: winterlight

I got this comment from somebody who posted and i am wondering if others feel the same way..


Spring 2009 not a chance in hell.
Spring 2010 a chance in hell.




slaveboyforyou -> RE: Do you think by next spring the economy will be better? (12/19/2008 7:02:07 PM)

I'm a day to day person.  I have no idea what will happen next week or next month.  No one really does; there are just too many "what ifs" that can occur.  Don't worry about it.  You can only control the little things. 




celticlord2112 -> RE: Do you think by next spring the economy will be better? (12/19/2008 7:04:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: winterlight

I got this comment from somebody who posted and i am wondering if others feel the same way..

It is possible, but I am not optimistic about spring 2009.  There is still a lot of de-leveraging yet to be done.

2010 has a decent chance for improvement, provided the politicians don't fuck things up more than they already have.  2010 would be a lock for a turnaround if we sent the political types on an extended vacation throughout 2009.




DarkSteven -> RE: Do you think by next spring the economy will be better? (12/19/2008 7:19:45 PM)

I don't even know what "the economy" is any more.  Is it the GXP, the unemployment rate, or the size of the deficit?

I imagine that credit MIGHT be eased up.  But the deficit will be ludicrously high, and I don't expect unemployment to drop any timje soon.




pahunkboy -> RE: Do you think by next spring the economy will be better? (12/19/2008 7:37:21 PM)

No.

By end of February there will be massive bank runs.

Things will heat up quite a bit over the summer.  The government is itself not to be from junk bond status.

The answer is no.




sub4hire -> RE: Do you think by next spring the economy will be better? (12/19/2008 8:21:10 PM)

Considering there are still advertisements around here for interest only loans...only with a ten year term now.

Doubtful.




UncleNasty -> RE: Do you think by next spring the economy will be better? (12/19/2008 9:15:01 PM)

As best I can tell there are only 2 ilks of folks that have faith (faith = belief in something for which there is no evidence) the economy will be better next spring. 1) Those with their heads burind in the sand. 2) Those in a position to take advantnage of the losses of the masses.

Uncle Nasty




Lordandmaster -> RE: Do you think by next spring the economy will be better? (12/19/2008 9:20:12 PM)

No, it's going to be worse.




bluepanda -> RE: Do you think by next spring the economy will be better? (12/19/2008 9:20:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I don't even know what "the economy" is any more.  Is it the GXP, the unemployment rate, or the size of the deficit?


Exactly. Or is it the stock market? The real estate market? Inflation? What netric are we using?


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
I imagine that credit MIGHT be eased up.  But the deficit will be ludicrously high, and I don't expect unemployment to drop any timje soon.


I think you'e pretty much on the mark. Unemployment will be high all year. The stock market will probably be on the rise, but I don't know how fast. I expect it to drop again in or around March, when some other shoes start to drop and people start to figure out that the Obama stimulus plan is going to take a little more than 15 minutes to work. I think the market will grow slowly through 2009, which along with the continuing shortage of credit will make it difficult for businesses to capitalize, which in turn will weaken and lengthen the recovery in unemployment and other key areas.




blacksword404 -> RE: Do you think by next spring the economy will be better? (12/19/2008 9:55:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: winterlight

I got this comment from somebody who posted and i am wondering if others feel the same way..


2010 has a decent chance for improvement, provided the politicians don't fuck things up more than they already have. 


Good luck with that.

Our roads and bridges would be fine if states din't divert the funds to their general fund. If they had resisted the temptation to print all this damn money we would not be in this mess. They have no clue how to fix this. But they will still try. And when they don't get immediate results they will skip to another solution, then another and another. They will likely try everything but the right thing. Trim the shit out of spending.






Hippiekinkster -> RE: Do you think by next spring the economy will be better? (12/19/2008 11:16:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluepanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I don't even know what "the economy" is any more.  Is it the GXP, the unemployment rate, or the size of the deficit?


Exactly. Or is it the stock market? The real estate market? Inflation? What netric are we using?


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
I imagine that credit MIGHT be eased up.  But the deficit will be ludicrously high, and I don't expect unemployment to drop any timje soon.


I think you'e pretty much on the mark. Unemployment will be high all year. The stock market will probably be on the rise, but I don't know how fast. I expect it to drop again in or around March, when some other shoes start to drop and people start to figure out that the Obama stimulus plan is going to take a little more than 15 minutes to work. I think the market will grow slowly through 2009, which along with the continuing shortage of credit will make it difficult for businesses to capitalize, which in turn will weaken and lengthen the recovery in unemployment and other key areas.

I'm with LAM. I think it will be worse. I'll bet that the DJIA will test 5000 next year, after the commercial real estate and option ARM bubbles pop. I think we'll see real unemployment approaching 15%. I think we'll see several major retail chains go belly up due to the worst 4th quarter sales since said sales numbers have been recorded. We already see median car prices exceeding median annual incomes.

Suffice it to say I'm not as sanguine as you about the prospects for any sort of recovery. Peace.




MzMia -> RE: Do you think by next spring the economy will be better? (12/19/2008 11:32:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

No, it's going to be worse.


I pick this answer!
 
I have always felt many really do believe that "the economy" can or will be fixed in a short
period of time.
There are a myriad of issues involved right now, there is a really big mixed bag of serious issues.
Including, and certainly not limited to{Wall Street, the housing industry, and rapidly rising unemployment, and don't forget the seriously struggling lower and middle class}.

President-elect Obama has stated many times that our economy will get worse before it gets
better.
Obama: Economy Will 'Get Worse' Before Improving : NPR

Read the words that came out of his mouth, and understand this!
It will get WORSE before it gets better!
Say this phrase at least 4 times and then click your heels.

At what point will most people "get this"?


I don't have a working crystal ball, so I have no idea, "when the economy" will be better.
If nothing else, you can bet your last money, many changes are coming our way. 
Fasten your seatbelts, we are going to have a bumpy ride.




MzMia -> RE: Do you think by next spring the economy will be better? (12/20/2008 12:33:24 AM)

 I agree with those that stated the unemployment rate will certainly go up.
Let's see 2 million people have recently lost their jobs, many companies are laying
off workers, cutting benefits, or finding some sort of way to cut costs.

Jobs, Benefits: Grim Outlook - WSJ.com




LadyEllen -> RE: Do you think by next spring the economy will be better? (12/20/2008 3:31:32 AM)

The apparent problem is that the financial system has screwed itself quite comprehensively through involvement in speculatory bubbles that have now burst, but by which they were primarily supporting their existence.

The underlying problem is that there is not enough actual wealth - stuff of real value - to support the existence of so many financial institutions. Whatever a financial institution is, it relies as much on incomes as any other business, and it derives those incomes from three main sources -
- providing finance by way of lending, b2b, b2c and interbank
- speculating on the markets on its own account
- management fees for handling others' monies or assets

The financial institutions have to have sufficient assets of their own in order to gain confidence from those who lend to them (personal deposit account holders and other financial institutions) that there is adequate security for the loan. Likewise for them to be able to trade on their own account in the markets and to secure the management of others' monies and assets. But, there is not enough stuff of actual value around any more to support the required security for all insitutions, unless the nominal value of that wealth is inflated.

When the bubble of such inflation burst, financial institutions were revealed as not actually having sufficient assets that lenders to them might have confidence - the nominal value of the assets was much lower than the previous inflated value. Thus they were exposed in a risk sense, interbank lending stopped and there were follow on events in the real world such as the drying up of credit, the withdrawal of credit, the calling in of loans etc - and this will continue until such time as confidence is restored by way of exposure being reduced to the value of the assets in each case. Or, as our governments are attempting to do, by way of the assets of the financial institutions being made up by the taxpayer to cover the exposure.

Long term however we must face up to the fact that unless there is real underlying wealth, all efforts to stabilise the financial markets shall be in vain. The problem then becomes that in the absence of financing, it is very difficult to maintain existing actual wealth, let alone to generate more to the level it needs to be to support the financial sector.

So in answer to the question, this is going to be a long, hard struggle over a considerable time period before we even reach the bottom of this episode, and likely a longer, harder struggle on the other side to regain what was lost - or rather to build what was found to actually not exist at all. 

Next spring we shall not yet be at the bottom, let alone anywhere near to recovery.

E




NormalOutside -> RE: Do you think by next spring the economy will be better? (12/20/2008 4:01:11 AM)

The economy, what's that?  To me, seems like a game they cooked up around 100 years ago, and now EVERYBODY is playing.
Sadly, only a few thousand are going to win, and the rest of us are going to lose bigtime....

..... by next spring.




Aneirin -> RE: Do you think by next spring the economy will be better? (12/20/2008 4:33:54 AM)

General Reply ;

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wTINcPxlOHU




Dargrim -> RE: Do you think by next spring the economy will be better? (12/20/2008 4:49:50 AM)

I think it could be said screwed doesn't quite cover it. Unless your the head of a bank or amenities company, which seem to be making the same profits, by screwing us over more. Thank you capitalist system.


Going to get a hell of a lot worse before it gets better, and not for a few years I would imagine.




samboct -> RE: Do you think by next spring the economy will be better? (12/20/2008 6:20:47 AM)

I agree with Lady E in terms of her analysis of the situation.  I'm just not sure how long the bleeding will continue before drastic surgery occurs.  Politically, it may be easier to do things fast and furious and Obama may have that thought running through his noggin.  If the economy remains in a downward spiral for two years before anything drastic is done, the moment may have passed for radical surgery and it will be a long hard slog to anything resembling economic growth.

At this point, the current financial system is done.  (Lady E and I may disagree on this point.)  Her analysis is that to fix it will take a long slow climb out of a hole.  My comment is that it can't be fixed- the hole is too deep to climb out of.  Hence, there needs to be a radical restructuring of debt which will probably mean a new currency.  If we're going to take this step- to quote Shakespeare "Tis best it were done quickly...."

The solution to the Great Depression was to have massive government spending on an arms buildup.  Well, Obama's setting up a cabinet to declare "war on global warming" and if he musters the political will to carry this out, we might have a short period of lots of disruption, followed by economic growth.  When you're rowing a boat upstream, sometimes a short savage pull will get you to where you need to be more efficiently than a long steady stroke.

Sam




LadyEllen -> RE: Do you think by next spring the economy will be better? (12/20/2008 6:41:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
At this point, the current financial system is done.  (Lady E and I may disagree on this point.)  Her analysis is that to fix it will take a long slow climb out of a hole.  My comment is that it can't be fixed- the hole is too deep to climb out of.  Hence, there needs to be a radical restructuring of debt which will probably mean a new currency.  If we're going to take this step- to quote Shakespeare "Tis best it were done quickly...."

Sam


No disagreement at all on that Sam; when I say "considerable period" I mean "considerable period", and primarly because as you indicate, the hole is enormous and if refillable at all will require such a "considerable period" for that to be achieved.

If we can change the game entirely, it certainly wont bring bright sunlit uplands any time soon - but it will at least sidestep the considerable period of suffering that otherwise lies before us. The choice is akin to starving with no crops in the ground, or eating bugs whilst tending the farm - survival says eating bugs until the next harvest is the better choice.

But I do question how changing the game entirely would play out, unless all players agree to changing the game - although on the other hand it is ultimately in the benefit of all players to change the game; lenders and creditors might be annoyed, but as things are they stand to collect zero either way.

E




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