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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/27/2008 7:27:24 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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You are me when I was younger. Then when I realized the subtle abuse I was doing, it literally made me throw up when the realization hit me. I still have the same fear, because I still have the same capacity. I treat myself like a loaded gun, and make sure that when I go off, it is either constructive or on someone that deserves it (yeah I know egomaniac).

That fear is a good thing though, as you can use it to bolster yourself or force yourself to walk away, when your ego may be saying "don't you dare back down from this bitch.".

I have also found that there are some people that know how to hit my triggers, most of them have done it subconsciously and I learned that they were caught in a cycle from the other side. Just hang in there, and keep to your principles.




quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

So while many people are reading this and afraid they will be a victim, I'm reading this and struggling with feelings of fear of being the abuser one day.



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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/27/2008 7:40:03 PM   
Aszhrae


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

So while many people are reading this and afraid they will be a victim, I'm reading this and struggling with feelings of fear of being the abuser one day.



And from what I surmises, there are countless others who also feel this way yet they may not have the courage to be able to voice what you have here.



It is probably the worst thing for any one person to realize. The way that you have been raised makes an individual guarded from becoming what the parent or guardian treated them growing up.
What I remember of my father as a child is that he always blamed my mother, my sister and my self for everything wrong with his life.
It would also seem that in some situations, its not always opposites that attract but that individuals tend to get involved with those that closely reflect their father's and their mother's.
Alcoholism or other forms of addiction are usually at the root of such abusive behavior. Those that were recipients of such abuse, either become what they do not want to be or they avoid such things so as not to become what they experienced when much younger.
Not everyone wants to become a victim. Its not how an individual begins life but it is the environment that individuals exist and mature within that makes them become the bully, the controller, the submissive, the victim, the protector or the healer.
Certainly gives an individual something to think about as they exist within their chosen lifestyle.



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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/27/2008 7:48:45 PM   
MadRabbit


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God, can I relate to this post...

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
I treat myself like a loaded gun, and make sure that when I go off, it is either constructive or on someone that deserves it (yeah I know egomaniac).


This is more or less the exact same code of ethics I use with dealing with anger. One of things I have learned is that not all anger is bad and there is such a thing as constructive, "righteous" anger. The only problem I've run into that its often hard to tell when your angry whether you are motivated to be angry because they deserve it or you are using "they deserve it" as an excuse to justify "hurting them".

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
when your ego may be saying "don't you dare back down from this bitch.".


I know that thought....

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
I have also found that there are some people that know how to hit my triggers, most of them have done it subconsciously and I learned that they were caught in a cycle from the other side. Just hang in there, and keep to  your principles.


My worst one is the silent treatment, particularly when someone is using not answering the phone as a way to ignore me.

I bought a book about two years ago about triggers and how to turn them off. The hardest thing about the process of becoming aware of what your triggers are is the hard reality that the only way to find your triggers is by having one set off. You know inevitably your going to run the risk of hurting someone again before you have enough life experience to know what they are. It's a rough thought.

Thank you for taking the time to write.

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/27/2008 7:58:17 PM   
beargonewild


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Seeing that this discussion has evolved to a person knowing and acknowledging their triggers and methods to curtail the explosive reactions to a trigger being set off. I am wondering if there will ever come a time when these triggers become desensitized enough that they no longer cause a reaction?

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/27/2008 8:00:33 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

So while many people are reading this and afraid they will be a victim, I'm reading this and struggling with feelings of fear of being the abuser one day.



And from what I surmises, there are countless others who also feel this way yet they may not have the courage to be able to voice what you have here.



I think on the inside, everyone knows the truth.

This has been something I have been dealing with on my own for about 2 years now so I have had a lot of time to come to terms with it slowly, mostly with being able to look myself in the mirror. I am not much for sharing my private life in public, but this particular situation I thought it was worth mentioning.

More or less, every girl I have seriously I have considered being with has heard this same speech. "I have a temper, I'm aware of it, and I have the capacity to harm you." One person who had a past history of abuse couldn't handle it, but I think that was for the best.

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/27/2008 8:04:18 PM   
kiwisub12


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

[


But I will say that there are some people who use their past abuse history to try and excuse or even explain who they are today or use it to give some sort of credence to their 'advice'.  People do feel they need to justify their knowledge - nothing wrong with that at all - but it isn't necessary to prove yourself if your words hold any truth in them.   
the.dark

 
 
as one of those who have shared about their past abuse, i strongly feel that who i am today is because of the past - including the abuse. And do i think it gives credence to my advice or knowledge ? - hell yes!
I don't need to "justify" my knowledge, but the fact that it was hard won gives it more credence than someone who read something somewhere. I have lived it, survived it and recognise it for what it is.  And why should knowledge in subtle abuse be less valued because it is real time than any other subject on these boards? Seems to me that i have read posts of yours that have been based on realtime experience, rather than theoretical knowledge.
the.dark - your words, intended or not, come across as somewhat  dismissive of the posters who had the guts to expose their underbellys, hopefully so that other victims, and abusers alike would maybe see something of themselves and turn from that path.
perhaps i have read something into your post that you didn't intend, and if i did i apologise, however......
 
  edited for spelling

< Message edited by kiwisub12 -- 12/27/2008 8:05:45 PM >

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/27/2008 8:09:06 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

Seeing that this discussion has evolved to a person knowing and acknowledging their triggers and methods to curtail the explosive reactions to a trigger being set off. I am wondering if there will ever come a time when these triggers become desensitized enough that they no longer cause a reaction?


Speaking solely from personal experience, yes, because most triggers are insecurities. You deal with them by ironing out the insecurity.

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/27/2008 8:28:32 PM   
Aszhrae


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quote:

Speaking solely from personal experience, yes, because most triggers are insecurities. You deal with them by ironing out the insecurity.


I agree with you MR and also with kiwi.
For those of us that have survived abuse, some more than others. I don't think given our experiences would make us the victims but the survivors.
As individuals we look back and do what we can to aid those in seeing the warning signs and also instill a certain amount of strength in removing themselves from that hostile situation.
Now I am not completely sure and its only speculative, but being a submissive we may crave some of what has made us what we are today but in a controlled environment. It is only when it becomes hostile, without discipline or reason that it becomes abusive.
For my self, being a submissive and pain slut is my way of ridding my self of the potential to lose control. Thus eliminating the potential for abusive behavior inflicted upon me as a child. Its my way of getting rid of the resentment and hostility actively swimming about in the shadow of my subconscious.
That is how I heal.
How do you heal your self from the abuse endured?


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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/27/2008 8:39:32 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aszhrae

Now I am not completely sure and its only speculative, but being a submissive we may crave some of what has made us what we are today but in a controlled environment. It is only when it becomes hostile, without discipline or reason that it becomes abusive.


I would say that power based relationships have the strong potential for one partner to be emotionally vulnerable to the other. At least, my connections with submissive women have involved that.

It's why I think this issue, in reference to our relationships, is such a serious one and make a point to tell them about my temper. Some people will disagree, but they might lack the poignant experience of having someone who is vulnerable to you and being the receiver of the desire to please you, then fucking it up.

Because, despite how people may want to downplay it, not taking the time to become aware of your abusive behaviors before entering such a relationship is nothing short of irresponsible.

And it's a lllloooonnnggg and hard process.

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/27/2008 8:40:44 PM   
Lordandmaster


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The problem is that the experts aren't saying what you're saying they're saying, and you seem to be getting very frustrated by people (like me) who don't read your information the same way you do.  I refuse to try to educate myself?  Why is it your presumption that you know better and I need to educate myself?  If I made that same presumption, you'd be crying foul!

Your links were very helpful, informative--yes, I agree with all the people who have thanked you for posting them.  But what do they have to say about the claim that started ALL of this--that abusers begin by breaking things and move on to harming people?

They say precisely this:

Some abusers begin by breaking things, then escalate and harm people.
Other abusers don't begin by breaking things; they just start right in by harming people.

And still other people--the majority, frankly--break things and never move on to harming human beings, because people who are honest with themselves have to admit that they have broken things in anger or frustration at some point in their lives, and most people do not become abusers.

So what's the sum total of all that?  The sum total is that breaking things is a pretty piss-poor indicator of abuse.  It could be part of a pattern of abuse.  It could be a red flag...and then again, it might not be.

It saddens me to say this, but most of what I see in all the criticism I received yesterday (I reread both threads tonight) are people who are understandably sensitive about abuse but lashed out at me irrationally because what I said did not sound like what others preach.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

(e)  There is so much still misunderstood about the aspects and consequences of abuse.  What I find sad are that people (mostly men, it seems) want to challenge well known information as wrong (based on their personal opinions, only), rather than try to educate themselves and understand a very touchy topic. This thread (and the other one) is a perfect example of that.  In response to what government agencies, psychological agencies, social service agencies, volunteers who work at shelters, and personal accountings have to say, we still have people saying "That's just not true...because I think it's not true" rather than saying "Hmm, this is a real problem out there and I'm not understanding it - why are all the experts and former victims saying one thing can lead to another?  I can't personally see it, but why does this appear to be a trend?"  No, instead they have used sarcasm, patronization, joke, accusations of being "heated" and "assualting", and a personal pulpit based on nothing but what is in their head.  It is a pity this could not have been a cool, educational, intellectual conversation.  I think we all could have gotten a lot more out of it.


< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 12/27/2008 8:46:30 PM >

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/27/2008 9:12:43 PM   
Kalista07


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On some level i think we are all saying the same things just coming at them from different points of view or different perspectives. In being able to step back and evaluate this thread with some (hopeful) perspective i really do get what LAM and others are saying. Here's the reality for me in this relationship....If He were to throw a plate against the wall cause He didn't like what i fixed for dinner or i ruined it or whatever........my response.......honestly?? i'd probably laugh. When i picked myself up off the floor from laughing so hard i would probably ask what he was doing. The reality is i know beyond a shadow of a doubt that He would never intentionally and unconsentually harm me.  If however, we were at one of His friends house whom i do not know that well....It would definitely put me on edge and i would begin watching for other red flags.  Is breaking something, throwing something, slamming things necessarily a precursor for abusive behavior? No...not necessarily.  However, if it began because He didn't like what i cooked for dinner, than again when He didn't like how i cooked it, then He began to tell me how fat and/or ugly i am.......then i would say that is abuse, yes.
i also feel the need to make something clear. i do not think that because i've survived years of trauma and abuse that it makes me somehow an expert......i do, however, thinks because this is part of my chosen profession that i have been highly educated and trained in this area.
Sometimes i think it's important that we not throw the baby out with the bath water......
Just some things to think of,
Kali


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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/27/2008 9:56:10 PM   
mistoferin


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FR~

The more I read this thread, the more I wish I'd have just passed this one by.

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/27/2008 10:44:00 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

The problem is that the experts aren't saying what you're saying they're saying, and you seem to be getting very frustrated by people (like me) who don't read your information the same way you do.  I refuse to try to educate myself?  Why is it your presumption that you know better and I need to educate myself?  If I made that same presumption, you'd be crying foul!

I have said before that the issue I took with your stance is that you were making claims of what is and what is not abuse without backing them up, while requesting those who were trying to answer your questions about abuse to provide written proof.  I don't "know better" although I have lived it.  I never said I knew better.  I did say I thought experts in various fields and agencies (psychological, government, social services, shelter volunteers) do know better than a stand alone "that's not abuse" opinion, given without further discussion.  If I offended anyone or anything in my stance, it was not my intention.  It was my intention to bring information out that might be useful.  But MR is right.  I'm just repeating myself and that's boring even me.

I am tired of this thread and overstayed my welcome.  Ironically, I received a card in the mail today from my ex husband - a Christmas card I presume (I didn't open it).  The day before my late father's birthday.  It was addressed to the pet name only my father used to call me.  The man still knows what buttons to press and when, it seems.  It was an upsetting experience.

But yes, LAM, sometimes breaking things escalates into further abuse, sometimes it does not.  We agree there.  OK?

< Message edited by NuevaVida -- 12/27/2008 11:10:32 PM >


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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/28/2008 12:17:58 AM   
BondageBarbieX


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I will not tolerate any form of physical or mental abuse and if I see any of my partners even crossing that line they are dumped like yesterdays garbage

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/28/2008 1:17:29 AM   
julietsierra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

The problem is that the experts aren't saying what you're saying they're saying, and you seem to be getting very frustrated by people (like me) who don't read your information the same way you do.  I refuse to try to educate myself?  Why is it your presumption that you know better and I need to educate myself?  If I made that same presumption, you'd be crying foul!

Your links were very helpful, informative--yes, I agree with all the people who have thanked you for posting them.  But what do they have to say about the claim that started ALL of this--that abusers begin by breaking things and move on to harming people?

They say precisely this:

Some abusers begin by breaking things, then escalate and harm people.
Other abusers don't begin by breaking things; they just start right in by harming people.

And still other people--the majority, frankly--break things and never move on to harming human beings, because people who are honest with themselves have to admit that they have broken things in anger or frustration at some point in their lives, and most people do not become abusers.

So what's the sum total of all that?  The sum total is that breaking things is a pretty piss-poor indicator of abuse.  It could be part of a pattern of abuse.  It could be a red flag...and then again, it might not be.

It saddens me to say this, but most of what I see in all the criticism I received yesterday (I reread both threads tonight) are people who are understandably sensitive about abuse but lashed out at me irrationally because what I said did not sound like what others preach.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

(e)  There is so much still misunderstood about the aspects and consequences of abuse.  What I find sad are that people (mostly men, it seems) want to challenge well known information as wrong (based on their personal opinions, only), rather than try to educate themselves and understand a very touchy topic. This thread (and the other one) is a perfect example of that.  In response to what government agencies, psychological agencies, social service agencies, volunteers who work at shelters, and personal accountings have to say, we still have people saying "That's just not true...because I think it's not true" rather than saying "Hmm, this is a real problem out there and I'm not understanding it - why are all the experts and former victims saying one thing can lead to another?  I can't personally see it, but why does this appear to be a trend?"  No, instead they have used sarcasm, patronization, joke, accusations of being "heated" and "assualting", and a personal pulpit based on nothing but what is in their head.  It is a pity this could not have been a cool, educational, intellectual conversation.  I think we all could have gotten a lot more out of it.



lol... I don't break things in anger. It causes a mess that I will eventually have to clean up and on top of that, I'm out whatever it is I broke. I will however separate myself from the situation so that I can calm down before dealing with whatever has angered me. I will do what I need to do to address issues calmly and with some forethought, because a defensive person has precious few choices aside from lashing back in their own anger and that solves nothing. So no, not everyone breaks things or throws things in anger.

Whatever your reasons, if you and I were involved and you began breaking things, what you'd have on your hands would not be pretty. See, I don't care one whit whether you're in one of the categories you've listed or the other or have found a category all of your own. All I know is that you are angry and that you're breaking things because of that anger rather than going for a walk and calming down so we can talk. And all the intellectualizing of the situation won't matter.

You broke something out of anger. You're gone. You raise your voice to me instead of talk to me. You're gone. You discover that you're out of control. You're gone. If I am afraid of what you will do because you're angry, you're gone. I will never NEVER be put in a position where I have to live in fear in my own house EVER again. It also happens to be the reason I will never live with someone again either - unless it IS my own house. And I really don't care and won't care if something led up to it or not. It is what it is. You make me afraid of you and your anger, you're out.

It's really that simple.

juliet

< Message edited by julietsierra -- 12/28/2008 1:52:17 AM >

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/28/2008 1:34:01 AM   
Icarys


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Those that live behind brick walls will slowly starve. What you have stated is one of the reasons I said what I said earlier. You'll probably see anger issues where there might not be any. You'll live the rest of your life running from fear. Any and all of the above with I'm sure a few more possibilities will most likely be your future unless you tone it down and learn to balance those beliefs. If your happy living like that then more power to you but I wouldn't believe you were if you said it.

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/28/2008 1:34:35 AM   
JustDarkness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BondageBarbieX

I will not tolerate any form of physical or mental abuse and if I see any of my partners even crossing that line they are dumped like yesterdays garbage


yes..it is actually pretty easy to deal with. But sadly many people keep accepting it.

ps..why do we have such long discussion about things that have "BAD" written all over it...
The word Abuse itself sounds nasty as hell...so what is there to argue..it is bad to abuse people..period..


< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 12/28/2008 1:38:49 AM >

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/28/2008 1:55:53 AM   
julietsierra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

quote:

ORIGINAL: BondageBarbieX

I will not tolerate any form of physical or mental abuse and if I see any of my partners even crossing that line they are dumped like yesterdays garbage


yes..it is actually pretty easy to deal with. But sadly many people keep accepting it.

ps..why do we have such long discussion about things that have "BAD" written all over it...
The word Abuse itself sounds nasty as hell...so what is there to argue..it is bad to abuse people..period..



And there we have it - the cliff's notes version of this entire thread. You're absolutely right.

juliet

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/28/2008 3:19:18 AM   
stella41b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BondageBarbieX

I will not tolerate any form of physical or mental abuse and if I see any of my partners even crossing that line they are dumped like yesterdays garbage


This is where perhaps we differ. I have been abused in the past, I have also made the choice between victim and survivor, so much so that today I am able to disaasociate actions from the people making them and allow people some sort of an error margin.

It's taken me a while but I have learned that nobody can make me feel bad without my allowing them to make me feel bad. Knowing this has removed any insecurity or fear of being abused, and furthermore, has released me from that cycle of abuse - victim - potential abuser.

I don't tolerate abuse, neither from other people nor, more importantly, from myself as a result of being abused, given that I am still today working on the effects of that abuse, both from other people and from myself. Nobody has even touched really upon the fact that yes, it is possible that someone who has been abused is very capable of abusing themselves as a result and using transference refuse to own their abusive actions directed at themselves and instead ascribe the ownership of that abuse to other people.

I fully accept myself as a person, and it is my own inner voice and my own validation of myself which is stronger than that coming from anyone else. For example I am struggling with a weight issue, with obesity. Nobody else made me overweight, I made myself overweight through poor coping skills and through not just accepting the subtle abuse from others but also seeking from other people validation for me being me. My challenge to myself is to not be overweight, and to work on this issue together with other issues. The key to this is to accept myself as I am, to listen to my inner voice and to rely on my own validation of myself.

Also part of that whole process of working on myself and my issues, is to work on my way of interacting and dealing with other people. Someone who is being abusive to me will be called on it, and I will have no hesitation in pointing out any form of abuse directed towards me. Understandably not everybody is like me, and there are women who for one reason or another are unable to place themselves in that situation and confront the potential abuser and look them in the eye and call them on it, and so therefore they have to walk away. This isn't wrong, it's just different. There is no wrong and right way of dealing with abuse, just some ways are more effective than others.

Does being an abuser make someone a bad person? No, it doesn't, they are still a human being, but one who is doing operating from weakness. It's the abuse which is negative, not the person, and there may be many reasons for that abusive behaviour which are not apparent at the time. Often an abuser is someone who has been abused in the past, someone who feels they have been deprived of something, someone who feels that they are unable to do something, that they have been prevented from doing something, and they are functioning from a position based on anger, insecurity, or fear. However it is someone who is still trapped in that cycle, and my confrontation is an opportunity perhaps for them to try and break out of that cycle.

Abuse isn't necessarily bad, for anger and fear aren't necessarily bad emotions, but emotions which show weakness, and this to me is all that an abuser is being - weak. Strength comes from being open, communicative and being assertive. Directing anger at another person is an incredible weakness, directing anger at things is weakness, being angry is weakness, but understanding why you are angry and being able to channel that energy and emotion into something more positive is strength.

So why would I confront someone who is being abusive? Why not just dump them and walk away? We can be aware of what we are doing, but sometimes we are unaware of the effects some of our thoughts, words and actions have on other people. We learn about ourselves not just through our thoughts, perceptions, and observations but also through other people and how we interact with them. Abuse is subjective, and the way out of the cycle is through recognition, hindsight and honesty. If I were to walk away or to cut off contact with someone who is being abusive, it leaves it open for that cycle to continue with someone else who may not be able to recognize it and one or both people might suffer as a result. However there is no guarantee that someone who is being abusive to me will be abusive with the next person. It comes back to that one word - triggers. Through confrontation I am confronting the issue and challenging the person to do something about it. I'm giving them the choice over how to respond.

My position here is one based on a sense of personal responsibility. I am ultimately responsible for everything I think, do and say, and I hold other people responsible for the same. I refuse to think of abuse in terms of good and bad, but prefer to think in terms of weakness and strength. It doesn't matter to me where you are in the cycle of abuse, whether you are the abuser or the absued, for all that matters is the knowledge that weakness keeps you in that cycle, and strength helps you out of that cycle.

< Message edited by stella41b -- 12/28/2008 3:22:15 AM >


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(in reply to BondageBarbieX)
Profile   Post #: 259
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/28/2008 3:23:41 AM   
JustDarkness


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quote:

whether you are the abuser or the absued, for all that matters is the knowledge that weakness keeps you in that cycle


Does that mean all peopel that are abused are weak? Sounds like the victem gets blamed for what happens to him/her.
(that is how I read it..perhaps I mis understood)

(in reply to stella41b)
Profile   Post #: 260
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