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I'm not so sure this aspect of female domination/suprem... - 1/1/2006 11:22:16 PM   
pollux


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Maybe this belongs in the Gorean forum , but I've been seeing articles on this subject pop up, and thought I'd throw it up here and see what people think about it...

From USA Today:

quote:

In May, the Minnesota Office of Higher Education posted the inevitable culmination of a trend: Last year for the first time, women earned more than half the degrees granted statewide in every category, be it associate, bachelor, master, doctoral or professional.
...
As women march forward, more boys seem to be falling by the wayside, McCorkell says. Not only do national statistics forecast a continued decline in the percentage of males on college campuses, but the drops are seen in all races, income groups and fields of study, says policy analyst Thomas Mortenson, publisher of the influential Postsecondary Education Opportunity newsletter in Oskaloosa, Iowa. Since 1995, he has been tracking — and sounding the alarm about — the dwindling presence of men in colleges.


From The Weekly Standard:

quote:

Yet the trends are grave. Women outstrip men in education despite that there are 15 million men and 14.2 million women aged 18--24 in the country. Kentucky colleges enroll at least 67 first--year women for every 50 men. Delaware has 74 first--year women for every 50 men.

The gender gap is even more palpable within the colleges themselves, because women and men gravitate to different majors. While a split in preferences has always been the case, the gender imbalance in the overall college makes departments so segregated that campus life just ain't what it used to be. In North Carolina's public and private universities, a typical psychology class has four women for every man. In education, the ratio is five to one. The English and foreign language departments are heavily female as well.

The consequences go far beyond a lousy social life and the longer--term reality that many women won't find educated male peers to marry. There are also academic consequences, and economic ones.

...

What is going on? Schools are not paying enough attention to the education of males.


There are some college-age women here... Do you ladies see any evidence/fallout from this? It's been 20 years since I was in college (I went to a Big 10 school), and it seemed to me like things were pretty much 50/50 back then. If anything, maybe a few more men than women.

Those with male unmentionables... Do you think the education system is letting boys slip thru the cracks?

Those with politically incorrect attitudes... In our cultural zeal to level the educational playing field for women, have we neutered/ignored/slighted boys in the process?

< Message edited by pollux -- 1/1/2006 11:23:48 PM >
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RE: I'm not so sure this aspect of female domination/su... - 1/2/2006 5:48:40 AM   
Quivver


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I think in many ways your thread here does go hand in hand with the Pussification thread on the Gor board in some ways. But I personally welcome it here where
others might chime in too. For a short reply to the question though, yes I do think
our Boy's slip through the cracks. But the reasons are many. Over worked
teaching staff and sports come to mind first. Then too many teachers tend to
be female so boy's loose that kind of intelligent roll model early. I hope others
here add their 2 cents. It could prove an interesting topic.

Q

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RE: I'm not so sure this aspect of female domination/su... - 1/2/2006 6:11:28 AM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

Then too many teachers tend to
be female so boy's loose that kind of intelligent roll model early. I hope others
here add their 2 cents. It could prove an interesting topic.
Quivver, I actually have read research saying something similar to this in regards to black boys starting to lose ground around young teen years because they are primarily taught by women instead of men, and for some reason those who remained with male teachers tended to do better in terms of staying in school and excelling further out into the future; I would imagine this may be true for all boys.... If I find the reference, I'll come back to post it... M

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RE: I'm not so sure this aspect of female domination/su... - 1/2/2006 7:15:19 AM   
Tristan


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In addition to the lack of good male roll models in schools, another factor seems to be chivalry. We are a society that believes in ladies first. A couple years ago a feminist group did a survey on how well male and female students were doing in school. They measured performance in about 35 categories, and found that women did better than men in all but one category and women get a better over all education. Their conclusion...women were being cheated because the one category they did not do as well was technology, which they said paid well. They made recommendations to change that one area, and made no recommendations to change anything else. No one in the media seemed to question this recommendation or promote changes that would allow male students to get an equal over all education.

We are a society that accepts and promotes women first in all things (or nearly all things). There are no groups out there promoting changes in the education system that will help boys, and there is no end of groups promoting changes in the education system that will help girls. The result is that we are now graduating nearly 2 female students from college for every 1 male student.

Tristan

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RE: I'm not so sure this aspect of female domination/su... - 1/2/2006 10:00:49 AM   
NakedOnMyChain


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Interesting question. I too went to a Big 10 school (Purdue). I didn't notice a drastic difference, though it's been a couple of years since I was in school. There were slightly more females in a few of my classes, but on the round it was pretty even. Hell, I even managed to get a date now and again.

I don't think that the education system, at least the one that I've witnessed allows males to slip through the cracks. Having seen all aspects of private schools from preschool to highschool, then public schools from highschool back to preschool (I'm a substitute teacher and I spent my last highschool years at a public school), I would say that the public school system (at least the county one in Lafayette) is doing amazing things for enrollment and overall teaching. Private schools (at least the Catholic high school that I went to) dropped people down the cracks all the time, regardless of gender. Central Catholic was simply a bad school in every way, from sports recruiting, to overall teaching staff, to knowledge of subject matters taught, to forms of discipline dealt to students, to bumping up athletes' grades, to persecuting the students that didn't agree with them.

People drop through the cracks in the system, not just men, and not mostly men. If overall college attendance is down, it would stand to reason that the number of men would have dropped too. The number of men actually attending college hasn't dropped out of the normal pattern. The number of women has simply held steady. Why is it that if women are doing better in a given category than men it has to be because someone has "leveled the playing field" or that some poor boy somewhere is being "neutered/ignored/slighted"? Why can't it simply be that maybe we are better at something than someone else? Why can't the boys that didn't make it into college or didn't have the will or desire to go accept responsibility for their own mistakes?

If it makes any men angry that the attendance of boys at universities has dropped so low, then do something about it. A great place to start would be to become a teacher. Out of the many, many elementary teachers I've met in my line of work, only six or seven of them have been male. The number rises a bit in high school, but the vast majority are still female. If you want to change things, jump in and do it. Maybe it would help the boys I teach to have a stable male role model, and perhaps it would dissuade them of the notion that becoming a teacher or professor, or even going to college is "for girls".

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RE: I'm not so sure this aspect of female domination/su... - 1/2/2006 10:30:56 AM   
SweetDommes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain

Interesting question. I too went to a Big 10 school (Purdue). I didn't notice a drastic difference, though it's been a couple of years since I was in school. There were slightly more females in a few of my classes, but on the round it was pretty even. Hell, I even managed to get a date now and again.


Same here - Purdue, graduated a few years ago ... but in my case, there were so few males in my classes (my graduating class had 3 males and over 100 females) that the engineering students were always thrilled to have us in their buildings (and quite a few of our classes ended up over there because the Nursing building was so small). Overall, I didn't notice a serious bias on the campus - just in my classes. But then again, the nursing school is relatively small, especially when compaired to the engineering school, and the ratio in those classes (at least from what I saw) was at least 2 males for every female, and in most of them it was more like 5 males for every female ... so it balanced out our small, female dominated school.

I asked Holly about it (she graduated from Purdue just before I did) and she says that between the School of Engineering and the School of Agriculture, there are more males than females on the campus - those two schools are mostly male students, almost exclusively male professors, and as they are two of the largest schools on the campus, they more than make up for any female/male imbalances in the other, smaller schools on the campus.

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RE: I'm not so sure this aspect of female domination/su... - 1/2/2006 12:06:05 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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I was in college the first time 25 years ago, and there were women aplenty in school (U of Mich) but physics/engineering student there were precious few females in the physics/engineering fields that I was studying, the instructors were invariably male, and often Asian males who felt that women shouldn't be in their programs.

I have seen more and more women in technical fields, and I think it's wonderful! I think that there are just more women in college, period. As to boys falling through the cracks----there are far more studies showing how the males get favored treatment, and how teacher expectation does a great deal to affect their performance.



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RE: I'm not so sure this aspect of female domination/su... - 1/2/2006 2:43:22 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

There are no groups out there promoting changes in the education system that will help boys, and there is no end of groups promoting changes in the education system that will help girls. The result is that we are now graduating nearly 2 female students from college for every 1 male student.
I know there are individuals trying to address whatever it is that seems to be the change that is disenfranchising the boys, but you're right we need more attention and care brought to this subject for public discourse and potential solutions. M

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RE: I'm not so sure this aspect of female domination/su... - 1/2/2006 2:58:51 PM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristan

In addition to the lack of good male roll models in schools, another factor seems to be chivalry. We are a society that believes in ladies first. A couple years ago a feminist group did a survey on how well male and female students were doing in school. They measured performance in about 35 categories, and found that women did better than men in all but one category and women get a better over all education. Their conclusion...women were being cheated because the one category they did not do as well was technology, which they said paid well. They made recommendations to change that one area, and made no recommendations to change anything else. No one in the media seemed to question this recommendation or promote changes that would allow male students to get an equal over all education.

We are a society that accepts and promotes women first in all things (or nearly all things). There are no groups out there promoting changes in the education system that will help boys, and there is no end of groups promoting changes in the education system that will help girls. The result is that we are now graduating nearly 2 female students from college for every 1 male student.

Tristan


Well stated. Your assesment definitely rings true. I would go on to say that while I still see a lot of sharks in the water, they seem to be circled by a lot more porpoise.


- The Ranger

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 1/2/2006 3:00:31 PM >


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RE: I'm not so sure this aspect of female domination/su... - 1/2/2006 5:18:26 PM   
Ethne


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quote:

If it makes any men angry that the attendance of boys at universities has dropped so low, then do something about it. A great place to start would be to become a teacher. Out of the many, many elementary teachers I've met in my line of work, only six or seven of them have been male. The number rises a bit in high school, but the vast majority are still female. If you want to change things, jump in and do it. Maybe it would help the boys I teach to have a stable male role model, and perhaps it would dissuade them of the notion that becoming a teacher or professor, or even going to college is "for girls".


In my education program at a state university, there are 220. Of that 220, there are 19 that are male. Of that 19, 3 are going into elementary education. The rest are all majoring in physical education and secondary education. I second what she said.

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RE: I'm not so sure this aspect of female domination/su... - 1/2/2006 11:35:53 PM   
veronicaofML


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i find this to be a semi interesting topic...in that..."role models?"

i but merely hesitate....on this one.
i may assume? today's generation can't FIND role models?
and WHY do they NEED one? can't stand on their feet and be a man????

ok. not being cutesy....but hey. "I" never had any role models and yet i have been macho all my life.
i dropped out of school because i had to go to work to take care of myself coz i was kicked out of the house at 16.
but not every kid does.
i am sure a lot have semi decent parents.

i think there is more to this than meets the eye.
how much of this, is due to society...and not schools?
how much is due to environment from media? peer pressure?

i fail to believe it is ONLY the school's fault, OR it is MORE of the school.


but it is just MY gut feeling on it.


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RE: I'm not so sure this aspect of female domination/su... - 1/3/2006 5:52:59 AM   
Quivver


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Well of course they can and do find roll models of their own.
They find them on the TV screen! Few ever get to ever touch
their roll model, spend time with them or even get to speak with
them since many are larger then life. There's nobody left to show them
how to stand up and be a man with the way our world seems to be
working today. I agree totally there is more this then meets the eye.
And I belive that society as a whole is the blame, our evolution of sorts
got lost somewhere but it wasnt due to women getting the vote ...
I think its no different then why we are all here, it's a power exchange.
Has been since the day Judas said I dont know that man.

Q




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RE: I'm not so sure this aspect of female domination/su... - 1/3/2006 10:33:12 AM   
SweetDommes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Quivver

Has been since the day Judas said I dont know that man.

Q





I agree with what you said Quivver, but just an aside - Judas betrayed Him, Peter denied knowing Him.

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RE: I'm not so sure this aspect of female domination/su... - 1/3/2006 10:41:07 AM   
Quivver


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Duhhhhh, guess I need to saddle up on Sundays.....

Q

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RE: I'm not so sure this aspect of female domination/su... - 1/3/2006 1:41:21 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

ok. not being cutesy....but hey. "I" never had any role models and yet i have been macho all my life.
i dropped out of school because i had to go to work to take care of myself coz i was kicked out of the house at 16.
Role models are important. We can all learn to survive on our own, but living well, and learning to be a decent human being require a lot more intervention from the outside as well as the inside. M

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RE: I'm not so sure this aspect of female domination/su... - 1/3/2006 5:21:27 PM   
pollux


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quote:

If overall college attendance is down, it would stand to reason that the number of men would have dropped too. The number of men actually attending college hasn't dropped out of the normal pattern. The number of women has simply held steady.


I'm not sure how closely you read the articles I linked to, but the data don't support that conclusion. The declining attendance and graduation rates for men is a real trend, even after you adjust for overall attendance rates, and the relative percentage of men and women in the general population.

quote:

Why is it that if women are doing better in a given category than men it has to be because someone has "leveled the playing field" or that some poor boy somewhere is being "neutered/ignored/slighted"? Why can't it simply be that maybe we are better at something than someone else? Why can't the boys that didn't make it into college or didn't have the will or desire to go accept responsibility for their own mistakes?


Well, sure, but then you're arguing that those things are behind the general trend in the population at large, and you're still back at square one. I mean, if that's true, then you're still left with the question of how is it we've raised a generation of men who don't have the will/desire to go to college.

It's interesting that you mentioned perhaps women are better than men at college. Did you hear about the controversy that erupted when somebody asked the President of Harvard (I think it was Harvard) why science & engineering fields tend to graduate proportionally more men than women? He said, "well, I think men are probably just better at those things". He was hounded mercilessly for that remark (by women, mostly), and eventually had to withdraw it.

Personally, I tend to doubt that men are inherently better at science & engineering, and I tend to doubt women are inherently better than men at attending and graduating college.

Edit to add: Crikey, look at all the Big 10 peeps here...and two of ya from -- *holds nose* -- Purdue, even. I'm an IU grad

< Message edited by pollux -- 1/3/2006 5:24:17 PM >

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RE: I'm not so sure this aspect of female domination/su... - 1/3/2006 5:57:47 PM   
NakedOnMyChain


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quote:

I'm not sure how closely you read the articles I linked to, but the data don't support that conclusion.


I read it very closely. It doesn't specifically refute my conclusions either. However, I was using my personal experience to draw from as well as I made my points.

quote:

I mean, if that's true, then you're still left with the question of how is it we've raised a generation of men who don't have the will/desire to go to college.


That's a very good question. And one that I don't really have an answer to. Perhaps today's culture of instant gratification is spawning the "Why go to school when I can get a job and make money now?" thought process. Also, costs of tuition are becoming increasingly prohibitive. In addition, as the numbers of teen pregnancies continue to grow, many miss out on the opportunity to go to college in favor of raising children (they have options, but many don't realize it). Not to mention so many young people (both male and female) have developed a catered for, 'give it to me on a silver platter', selfishly lazy attitude... at least in my experience. The type just mentioned tend to not feel the need to go to college thinking that everything will be taken care of by someone else.

I still don't think that special treatment is given to females in the public school system, leading to young men "falling through the cracks". If men are being lost to colleges and universities it is most likely their home environment and conditioning or one of the above factors causing that end. I simply don't have a very good answer for this.

quote:

Personally, I tend to doubt that men are inherently better at science & engineering, and I tend to doubt women are inherently better than men at attending and graduating college.


Ack! I didn't mean it that way at all! (Going back now and rereading it, it did sound that way, though.) I was simply trying to refute the opinion that I've encountered so many times that women are given preferential treatment across the board, be it for jobs, college acceptance, or program placement. I was trying to ask why it is so impossible that we earned it, not accuse men of being worse than women in any category. I have always upheld an egalitarian point of view concerning the equality of genders in all categories.

Here's my attempt at rephrasing what I stated above: Why must it be, if a woman is accepted to a particular position and a man is rejected from the same position, that accusations of unfair treatment for the male must always be leveled? Is it not enough that perhaps the woman was better suited and qualified for the position? Why must the accusations typically insinuate that the playing field has been "leveled" for womens' benefit? More often than not no one is being slighted unfairly. I for one, would not want a leg up that someone else wasn't receiving. (Also, I would make this argument if the genders were in the opposite situation. However, for the sake of this discussion they are not.)

Edited to add: I know this great joke about an IU student, a computer monitor and white out...

< Message edited by NakedOnMyChain -- 1/3/2006 6:01:50 PM >


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RE: I'm not so sure this aspect of female domination/su... - 1/4/2006 3:48:03 AM   
LaMalinche


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux


It's interesting that you mentioned the possibility that perhaps women are better than men at college. Did you hear about the controversy that erupted when somebody asked the President of Harvard (I think it was Harvard) why science & engineering fields tend to graduate proportionally more men than women? He said, "well, I think men are probably just better at those things". He was hounded mercilessly for that remark (by women, mostly), and eventually had to withdraw it.

Personally, I tend to doubt that men are inherently better at science & engineering, and I tend to doubt women are inherently better than men at attending and graduating college.



I believe that you are referring to Larry Summers, who among a list of different reasons why males were doing better in hard sciences than women, he also suggested that there MIGHT BE a genetic difference between males and females when it comes to the hard sciences. Mr. Summers was listing different areas that should be looked into in order to improve the ration of male vs. females in the hard sciences.
The women that hounded him were also the idiot women who didn't seem to mind that one of their "hard scientists" nearly had a fainting spell upon hearing that hypothesis out of around twenty.
The whole incident was absurd, but after losing the election, the liberals had to make some sort of human sacrifice. *WEG*
By absurd I mean the repeated mea culpas, breast-beating, and supposed scientists nearly fainting in the aisle. IT is not absurd that males do better and matriculate at a higher proportion than females, and there may be a gene that controls that - after all, that is what the human genome project is all about - how much is nature and how much is nurture.

Now, in reference to the OP's original topic. . . yes, girls typically out perform boys until about puberty or middle/Jr High school, and then the boys start out performing them. There are various theories and reasons for this. One is that boys (usually one or two per classroom) receive about 50% of the teacher’s time. This means that in a class of 25 - the other 23 students are only receiving about 2% each of the teacher’s time. Another is reading material. The greater percentage of "reading" books (as opposed to textbooks) assigned by teachers and school boards have male protagonists with female characters (if any) as passive observers. This works to further instill the societal belief about how girls should behave - passively, while the male has adventures and solves problems.
At the college level, one of the things to consider is which gender is getting which degree, and which degree pays more. An engineering degree pays much better than an English degree. In someways the classes are still segregated by gender.
In the hard sciences, a mentorship is a must for graduate degrees and above, and those that currently hold the posts of "professor" whether assistant, associate, full, et cetera, are most often men. By and large, these men chose male students to mentor.
Now, before I get flamed, please keep in mind that I did use the phrase, by and large. The problem with looking at ANY gender inequality is that there is always the case of the individual that does not fit the by and large category.
Women are the nurturers, okay, but what about the women who drown their children, or the single father who raises and loves his children with the same care and compassion that we typically reserve for women?
Women are not physically strong enough for combat. Well, by and large, but there are some that can run other males into the ground on that 5km trek with a 90 pound rucksack.
Another thing to look at as far as college matriculation rates go, are the changes in society. College has become more of a viable option for females and not just to get their Mrs. degree. The number of white middle class females in the workforce is steadily increasing, and these women know that they need a degree to get a decent paying job.
It goes further than gender, or I should say, it is not only reflected in gender. Minorities are also increasing their rates of admission and matriculation. The University that I attend, has about a 20 something % of students who identify as African America, yet the percentage for the State is slightly under 6%. This cannot just be for the basketball. Minority enrollment is up for both males and females, but especially the females. This is going to change the percentile rates for matriculation by gender.

Okay, I have been long winded enough. My point, and as Ellen DeGeneres would say, and I do have one, is that a change in college matriculation percentages does not necessarily reflect that the public education or collegiate education system is failing anyone regardless of gender. There are other factors to consider, some which the schools and students have no control over, such as their parents level of education and the age of their mother when she had her first child. I personally believe that the public education system is failing all when I look around at our post-literate society. But that is a topic for another thread.

I am somewhat at a loss as to how an increase of college graduating females, pussifies men, but oh well, perhaps white men ages 18-45 feel the need to belong to a victim group also. A system that has served them well for millennia is changing; it is not surprising that they would be alarmed.

If anyone wants to PM me, I can get you a works cited list on any of the information that I included.


Have a great day


LaMalinche

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RE: I'm not so sure this aspect of female domination/su... - 1/4/2006 5:52:15 PM   
Tristan


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LaMalinche,

First, I don't think anyone is saying that an increase in graduating females pussifies men. I think that the OP was about equality. Specifically, how do you make sure that boy children and girl children grow up with the same opportunities. At least that's how I read the OP.

Second, there really are groups that are not graduating high school or college at the same rates as others. I think we as a society need to understand the needs of each specific group so that everyone has the same opportunities for success. Cultural differences influence accademics. Different people respond to different teaching methods. One of the most obvious cultural differences is that between white collar and blue collar workers. A child of a white collar professional has a much greater chance of graduating high school or college than a child of a blue collar professional. Understanding and responding to the differences in learning between groups can help create equality.

Third, this idea that white males were served by a system for millennia kind of misses the point that no one on this planet has been around for more than a few decades. I'm not one to believe that justice can be obtained for previous generations by creating inequality amoung the current generation. I think we need to work toward equality now regardless of race, gender, religion, or what ever else you want to use as a defining characteristic.

Tristan

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RE: I'm not so sure this aspect of female domination/su... - 1/4/2006 9:04:51 PM   
quietkitten


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From: Alberta, Canada
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I know that in my community there is a real push for tradesmen (and tradeswomen too I suppose) and there are fast track courses to encourage people (I assume mainly men, but I am not sure) to take these courses and work in the trades. There is a real shortage of trained carpenters, plumbers and electricians.. and the wages they can make is increasing as a result. If given the choice between taking a four year degree and a two year trade many men might choose to take the trade with more of a guarantee of a job once they are done. Education costs are increasing every year, so the choice may be more finanacial than anything else.

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(in reply to Tristan)
Profile   Post #: 20
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