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RE: I'm not so sure this aspect of female domination/su... - 1/5/2006 4:24:54 PM   
pollux


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Joined: 7/26/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain

Here's my attempt at rephrasing what I stated above: Why must it be, if a woman is accepted to a particular position and a man is rejected from the same position, that accusations of unfair treatment for the male must always be leveled? Is it not enough that perhaps the woman was better suited and qualified for the position?


Nobody's saying that in this thread, are they? We're talking about a decline in college graduation and attendance rates, right? There's no rejection going on. The men are making the choice for themselves. The question is, what's changed in the last 20-30 years that's caused them to make that choice?

quote:

Why must the accusations typically insinuate that the playing field has been "leveled" for womens' benefit? More often than not no one is being slighted unfairly. I for one, would not want a leg up that someone else wasn't receiving. (Also, I would make this argument if the genders were in the opposite situation. However, for the sake of this discussion they are not.)


I don't really know enough about education and social trends to make that accusation. And by definition, if you "level" the playing field, no one has an unfair advantage anyway, right? Again, it seems like something's changed in the last 20-30 years to affect male college attendance and graduation rates. Nobody seems to know what it is. However, the conventional wisdom (until very recently) has been that *girls* were the ones slighted by the educational system. Lamalinche gave all kinds of examples -- in literature we always have a male protagonist, etc. And it seems that there's been a justified reaction to that by the educational system, and in the culture at large. We instituted "Take Your Daughter To Work Day", etc.

Now, I come from a systems background, and I know that often when you try to fix a complex system, 11 times out of 10 you break something else in the process. I'm just wondering if in our zeal to improve the educational experience for girls (which I wouldn't want to undo), we perhaps neglected the boys in the process, or maybe made some other cultural change that has affected them negatively.

quote:

Edited to add: I know this great joke about an IU student, a computer monitor and white out...


Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever. And all the Purdue jokes I know involve engineers and farm animals.

(in reply to NakedOnMyChain)
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RE: I'm not so sure this aspect of female domination/su... - 1/5/2006 9:21:45 PM   
kittyplay


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Joined: 11/15/2005
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quote:

Now, I come from a systems background, and I know that often when you try to fix a complex system, 11 times out of 10 you break something else in the process. I'm just wondering if in our zeal to improve the educational experience for girls (which I wouldn't want to undo), we perhaps neglected the boys in the process, or maybe made some other cultural change that has affected them negatively.


That's an interesting take on systems theory. My training is in social work and my understanding is that in systems theory if you change one aspect of the system is causes a shift in the rest of the system. I think that our public educational system doesn't work well for most kids unless they have parents/guardians/families that can spend time helping them with school work and advocating for them at the schools. I've worked in various capacities at inner city schools, suburban and now at a big 10 university, and the kids that "make it" are either incredibly gifted and resilient or have a lot of support. The odds are heavily stacked against low income kids who usually have crappy schools with few support services. When I think nationally about our education system I'm most worried about those kids, whether male, female, white, African American, Latino, etc. Privledge doesn't know gender or ethnicity, but it certainly knows wealth.

As far as our culture and gender issues, I don't think we pay enough attention to children as children , meaning all children need a ton of love, affection, affirmation and support. In my opinion that means helping boys as well as girls understand what it means to be a "man" in our culture and that men and women have complimentary strengths, not neccessarily the same. In working with college men I'm saddened by how many feel shame in relation to their sexual feelings and are almost paralyzed when it comes to how to act with women (speaking about het guys). They've gotten so many mixed messages: be sensitive, but not TOO sensitive, make the first move, don't be a jerk, blah blah. They walk around with a lot of guilt about just being a guy (no, I don't mean all guys do). We need some kind of balance: all men aren't pigs, all women aren't angels...it's somewhere in between.

I'm really tired - hope this made sense :)

(in reply to pollux)
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RE: I'm not so sure this aspect of female domination/su... - 1/5/2006 10:19:15 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
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quote:

I think that our public educational system doesn't work well for most kids unless they have parents/guardians/families that can spend time helping them with school work and advocating for them at the schools. I've worked in various capacities at inner city schools, suburban and now at a big 10 university, and the kids that "make it" are either incredibly gifted and resilient or have a lot of support. The odds are heavily stacked against low income kids who usually have crappy schools with few support services. When I think nationally about our education system I'm most worried about those kids, whether male, female, white, African American, Latino, etc. Privledge doesn't know gender or ethnicity, but it certainly knows wealth.
As far as our culture and gender issues, I don't think we pay enough attention to children as children , meaning all children need a ton of love, affection, affirmation and support. In my opinion that means helping boys as well as girls understand what it means to be a "man" in our culture and that men and women have complimentary strengths, not neccessarily the same.
It made a great deal of sense to me.
Enjoyed reading your perspective Kittyplay. M


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""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to kittyplay)
Profile   Post #: 23
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