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RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever ... - 12/30/2008 1:01:20 PM   
BostonPeter1971


Posts: 9
Joined: 9/9/2007
Status: offline 		A professor asked his history class 'What is the reason behind the violence in the middle east & Israel?'

His top student raised his hand and said 'Its due to long standing geopolitical friction, where as for centuries racial mistrust, religious differences and cultural inequality has spearheaded any attempts at a long lasting peace'

The Professor shook his head no and said 'Its because it's hot, and they have no water.'

(in reply to MzMia)
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RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever ... - 12/30/2008 1:44:41 PM   
bdsmbear


Posts: 9
Joined: 10/10/2008
Status: offline 		When the Palestinians(and all islamics) start loving their children like we do, and stop teaching them to hate, there just might be a chance!

(in reply to MzMia)
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RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever ... - 12/30/2008 3:12:48 PM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		I'll throw out a radical idea-

There will be peace in that region in between 2020 and 2030.  Here's why-

The conflict has kept going due to external economic forces.  Israel recieves massive military aid from the US for several reasons-
1)  Israel is one of the best allies the US has.
2)  As long as we rely on oil for our economy, the region is of strategic importance.
3)  There is pro Israeli sentiment amongst the Jews in the US, but there is also a history where the creation of Israel was seen as the best alternative for the Jews that were displaced in Europe.  (How come nobody but me brings up the role of the Swiss in all this?  If the Swiss bankers had given the Jewish heirs of the Holocaust their money, the European Jews would have stayed to help rebuild Europe.  I guess the Swiss were worried about their complicity with the Nazis.)  Given that there was insufficient housing and food for Europeans and the need for massive US aid postwar its not surprising that the surviving Jews were left high and dry.  (A lot of these comments are based on my reading of Postwar, by Tony Judt.  I found it a fascinating post WWII history.)  There was also an element of US guilt in that we failed to harbor Jews from the Nazi death machine in the 1930s.

In terms of the long standing conflict- other posters prior have pointed out that the conflict prior to the establishment of Israel on the land previously referred to as Palestine was really pretty minor and petty.  Jews and the other tribes got along reasonably- everybody lived an agrarian lifestyle. As also pointed out prior- there was and remains plenty of intra Arab conflict. This conflict changed dramatically with the massive influx of  Jewish refugees and a certain amount of money, some of it belonging to the refugees, while a large chunk came from donations.  The Arabs united against the Jews.

So what are the causes of the current conflict?  Economics provided the spark.  I'm less concerned with the supposed centuries of conflict- I think it's overblown.  Artic- you may find that up until the 1950s there were thriving Jewish communities in Arab capitals such as Baghdad.  The establishment of Israel drove a wedge in between those communities and their neighbors.

How did Israel become such an economic powerhouse in short order?  Irrigation.  Basically the Jews irrigated the land where the Arabs did not.  This increase in food production allowed a much higher population density than in Arab countries.  It also triggered a good bit of jealousy.

OK- that's the background- here's the solution;

1)  As the world moves away from oil as a fuel in the next decade, Arab oil production declines and their economy gets into trouble.
2)  Israelis are developing solar power (both thermal and PV) and are working on more efficient methods of desalination.  There's plenty of water in the region- it's just salt water.  There's also plenty of energy.  Salt water + energy + money = fresh water
3)  Arabs need the Israeli technology to continue their standard of living absent oil profits.
4)  Without the need for oil, the rhetoric of the global community changes sharply against Arab aggression.
5)  Arabs are given a choice of live with the Jews or get nuked.  They decide that maybe the Jews aren't so bad after all- especially since they've got water to drink and farm with.


OK, I'm dreaming.  But it's at least a long shot.

Sam

< Message edited by samboct -- 12/30/2008 3:17:09 PM >

(in reply to bdsmbear)
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RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever ... - 12/30/2008 3:37:50 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bdsmbear

When the Palestinians(and all islamics) start loving their children like we do, and stop teaching them to hate, there just might be a chance!




Or when the Israelis stop stealing water rights and hoarding water.....

Then there might be a chance.



< Message edited by Owner59 -- 12/30/2008 3:38:24 PM >

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RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever ... - 12/30/2008 3:50:43 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia


The more recent conflicts involving Arab riots and Jewish immigration seems to have begun in earnest around 1920.
The Arab-Israeli conflict has been going on for certainly almost 100 years, and for MANY that would qualify as years and years and soon to be over 100 years of conflict.


I have not read the rest of the posts, but the Arab - Jewish SERIOUS fighting started in 1066 with the Granada Massacre. 

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(in reply to MzMia)
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RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever ... - 12/30/2008 4:00:44 PM   
StrictnSaucy


Posts: 363
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Status: offline 		I have lived in Ireland while the whole North / South  issue was being warred. Its now solved. The Israel/ Gaza Strip situation is quite similar. When they reach a position, that their leaders realise there is little to be gotten from warfare, and realise more can be gotton from peace, they will listen to outside advice and lay down the guns. Hopefully thats soon.


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RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever ... - 12/30/2008 4:50:13 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: bdsmbear

When the Palestinians(and all islamics) start loving their children like we do, and stop teaching them to hate, there just might be a chance!




Or when the Israelis stop stealing water rights and hoarding water.....

Then there might be a chance.




That's right, they really need to stop picking on those poor people. After all the hamas has never done anything to them, right?

Maybe you think the idiot in Iran has the right idea and they should just be exterminated....that would end the conflict fast.

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(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever ... - 12/30/2008 5:00:34 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		It is my fervant hope that P.E. Obama will keep the U.S. out of the affairs of foreign countries.
He's promised us "change" from Bush the interventionist.
How many "peace deals" do they need with all the photo ops, shaking hands etc going all the way back to Carter? Isn't one enough?
The only people who can make "peace" are the Palistinians and the Israelis.

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RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever ... - 12/30/2008 5:06:04 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		I got one, America, stop helping Israel, and let them go for it alone.



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RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever ... - 12/30/2008 9:18:52 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		http://larouchepac.com/news/2008/12/30/lpactv-threat-peace.html     .. .. 4 MIN blurb on the mess.  ...the logic goes that forces make a problem in order to solve it, a mode of creating empire.   being that US banks funded both sides of ww2, there is some credance to the theory.

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RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever ... - 12/30/2008 9:23:12 PM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
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Status: offline 		There will never be peace as long as one side "clings to their guns and religion".

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RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever ... - 12/30/2008 9:40:10 PM   
bluesgun


Posts: 33
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		Great post ,many good replies.
Very glad you brought up who was in this country (United States) first MzMia .
should we give it back ?
how about Ireland ? its been "occupied" for over 900 years... they certainly havent forgotten.
Many countries have been conquered/occupied and the citizens have forgotten and moved with the changing wind.
Many ....well nuff said.
I think this has much to do with cultural assimilation and religious identity,and the ability to sacrifice.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong;I was once.... October of 1977.(thats a joke)

Peace and Prosperity
Blues

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RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever ... - 1/3/2009 8:10:23 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		Just wanted to update this thread.
Watching the situation in the Gaza strip just makes me sad.
The situation is certainly escalating quickly.



< Message edited by MzMia -- 1/3/2009 8:13:46 PM >

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RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever ... - 1/3/2009 8:54:31 PM   
corysub


Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StrictnSaucy

I have lived in Ireland while the whole North / South  issue was being warred. Its now solved. The Israel/ Gaza Strip situation is quite similar. When they reach a position, that their leaders realise there is little to be gotten from warfare, and realise more can be gotton from peace, they will listen to outside advice and lay down the guns. Hopefully thats soon.




The problem between Israel and the Palistinians is very different than the quarrel between the catholics and protestants in Belfast.   Actually, I don't believe the arabs are fighting the Israelis because of religious differences but becase of the partition by the United Nations after WW2 creating the State of Israel.  Up until that time, arabs and the Jewish minority got along for hundreds of years.  That ended abruptly in 1947 and the Palistinians have been pretty much either in refugee camps or scattered all over the mideast.  In addition to the Palistinian peoples wanting their land back, arab countries ( and Iran as well) benefit from fueling the fires of bitterness towards Israel as a rally cry for the tribal masses.  Kinda keeps the focus off the sheiks and their billions earned because of a blood line.
While there will be periods of relative calm, this conflict will outlive all of us.

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RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever ... - 1/3/2009 9:25:26 PM   
PanthersMom


Posts: 2215
Joined: 11/26/2007
From: Cleveland Ohio
Status: offline 		will it ever end?  i'm afraid it could end very badly.  it will only end peacefully if the people there decide they've had enough and "encourage" the leadership to stop fighting.  how many of their children, on either side, have to die before someone says enough?
PM

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RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever ... - 1/3/2009 9:37:07 PM   
ArticMaestro


Posts: 178
Joined: 12/8/2008
Status: offline 		Of course the leadership on one side siezed total controll by force and refuses to allow "thier" people to have any input. 

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RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever ... - 1/4/2009 5:47:35 AM   
TNstepsout


Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		Informative thread. Thanks for starting it MzMia. I'm reading with interest but don't have much to add. (I have a lot to learn about what's going on there)



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RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever ... - 1/4/2009 7:39:20 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

I'll throw out a radical idea-



And the only sensible one to date

E

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RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever ... - 1/4/2009 12:09:59 PM   
MzMia


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Joined: 7/30/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PanthersMom

will it ever end?  i'm afraid it could end very badly.  it will only end peacefully if the people there decide they've had enough and "encourage" the leadership to stop fighting.  how many of their children, on either side, have to die before someone says enough?
PM



I think you hit it out of the ballpark.
How many generations of innocent victims {on both sides} will and have had their lives turned upside down, ruined and ended quickly because their elders have fought for decades?
They have little say in the situation, I wonder if they have the option to move the hell out of the area?
**I seriously mean people should be allowed to {LEAVE possibly forever} on BOTH sides, to get the hell out of there, and taken away, and given amnesty.**

< Message edited by MzMia -- 1/4/2009 12:58:04 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

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RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever ... - 1/4/2009 12:27:10 PM   
corysub


Posts: 1492
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I got one, America, stop helping Israel, and let them go for it alone.




Would seriously consider America abandoning it's friends?  I guess Europeans don't have the same attachement for relationships which, in the caseof Israel, go back six decades to the day the State of Israel was declared. 
I'm not saying that Ameica won't do such a thing given that the democrat party is now in control of both the Presidency and the Congress, and they have a long held belief in doing exactly that as in the case of VietNam, for example.
The battle in the mideast is obviously very complicated and not fully understood by most westerners, me included.  However, it seems to me that the battle here is even bigger than Gaza/Israel...it really is also Iran vs Egypt to lead the muslim world, deposing the criminal Kings and Sheiks that rule and install their own theorcacy.  Peace with Israel caused Sadat to lose his life to the Moslem Brotherhood, but the country has still held to it's accords.  Iran would like nothing better than a destabilized middle east with its growing power and within the next two years becoming a nuclear power.  

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