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RE: Police protection v Concealed carry - 1/2/2009 6:24:16 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix1heather



Why don't you hear about guns saving lives?  Because the press tends to the left and the left's agenda includes massive gun control.  It's counter productive to give any air, or ink, to the many thousands of defensive gun uses that occur each day. 



Ah yes, the evil liberal media is again to blame.

But I wasn't talking about the media, I was talking about what is presented on these boards and what I have heard in person.

Just from my own observation, it seems those who carry or keep a gun for protection mysteriously seem to find themselves in situations where they believe a gun is the only solution.

(in reply to phoenix1heather)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Police protection v Concealed carry - 1/2/2009 6:31:04 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Since leaving my former employer I still own and carry on occasion. Have not had to pull my weapon or even think of pulling my weapon since then. Why is it assumed so many others do or would?

And it is that damned corporate media, not damned liberal media ;)

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Police protection v Concealed carry - 1/2/2009 7:16:12 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf


Sometimes it could be a self fulfilling prophecy, but usually because they have the gun taken from them or is found by someone else that uses it on them.


So, wouldn't that be an additional argument against believing that a gun will be your savior?

Here's another interesting story.  I have a cousin who lives in the city, in what once was a nice area but has deteriorated into a haven for drugs and gangs.

One of his neighbors was a guy in his 70's who was the neighborhood "grandpa". Someone who was always helping everyone out.

Because of the way the neighborhood was declining, he kept a gun for protection.  He hit on the lottery.  Not a big win, I think it was around a grand, but he bragged about it and word got around.  He was out shopping and came home to surprise two burglars who ended up shooting him dead with his own gun.

They were caught, and they had no other weapons other than the old guy's gun.





(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Police protection v Concealed carry - 1/2/2009 7:24:46 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Ummm, rulem, referring to the title of the thread, I don't think you quite proved what you wanted to prove.

In other words if he had taken the gun with him, things would have been different.

T

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RE: Police protection v Concealed carry - 1/2/2009 7:43:18 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Since leaving my former employer I still own and carry on occasion. Have not had to pull my weapon or even think of pulling my weapon since then. Why is it assumed so many others do or would?



I'm not assuming anything, just reading the posts and hearing things in person.

Every gun thread has several posts with people detailing the stories of that very thing, including this thread.

Which leads me to believe that if you have a new toy you are going to find a reason to use it, or at least pull it out for everyone to admire.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Police protection v Concealed carry - 1/2/2009 7:47:03 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
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quote:

(
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Ummm, rulem, referring to the title of the thread, I don't think you quite proved what you wanted to prove.

In other words if he had taken the gun with him, things would have been different.

T


No, this happened a few years ago, and I believe it was before concealed carry was allowed here.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Police protection v Concealed carry - 1/2/2009 9:33:48 AM   
cadenas


Posts: 517
Joined: 11/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Ummmm North America is a continent too. I used the regional data because someone mentioned Canada. No I will not compare Germany to the US, as their histories and sociology is different. Also, no one has mentioned that 70% of violent crimes are committed with a firearm. Yes if a magic wand could be waved the violent crime rates could be reduced. Glad there are no magic wands.



You say you won't compare the USA to Germany because their histories and sociologies supposedly are too different - and then proceed to defend comparing two vastly more different regions.

North America includes Canada, Mexico and the USA. Canada and Mexico both have very strict gun control laws. Mexico also has a severe problem with weapons smuggling from the USA, along with a major drug war.

Europe includes such countries as Germany, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Moldova, Finland, Spain, Russia, Bulgaria, Turkey, Portugal, Ireland, Liechtenstein, Norway, and quite a few more. And Europe even includes a few war-torn countries.

Talk about comparing apples and nuts to oranges and machine screws!

The 70% of violent crimes are a US figure; in other countries, the numbers are far lower. That's the whole point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Not sure who it was that was talking about murder rates but North America has a murder rate of 6.6 and Europe has a murder rate of 5.5, as of 2004 data.



Ummm... Europe isn't a country but a continent with some 30 or so different countries, including Russia with a pretty severe organized-crime problem that dwarfs Mexico's.

Compare the murder rate between the USA and Germany (two countries with similar economy, demographics and culture), and you will find that the USA murder rate by firearms is about ten times the German one. Meanwhile, the rates for all other crimes - even for murder with other weapons such as knives - is very comparable between the two countries.






(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Police protection v Concealed carry - 1/2/2009 2:54:22 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Joined: 10/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf


Sometimes it could be a self fulfilling prophecy, but usually because they have the gun taken from them or is found by someone else that uses it on them.


So, wouldn't that be an additional argument against believing that a gun will be your savior?


A gun, knife, or any tool will be no one's savior. They are tools, to be used as they should be depending on the situation.

quote:


Here's another interesting story.  I have a cousin who lives in the city, in what once was a nice area but has deteriorated into a haven for drugs and gangs.

One of his neighbors was a guy in his 70's who was the neighborhood "grandpa". Someone who was always helping everyone out.

Because of the way the neighborhood was declining, he kept a gun for protection.  He hit on the lottery.  Not a big win, I think it was around a grand, but he bragged about it and word got around.  He was out shopping and came home to surprise two burglars who ended up shooting him dead with his own gun.

They were caught, and they had no other weapons other than the old guy's gun.



We can swap stories all day long and in the end it proves nothing. I am happy I live in a country that gives me the rights to carry a weapon and use it if I need to. I am more concerned about driving safety than gun safety, since it effects more people. Everything in perspective.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Police protection v Concealed carry - 1/2/2009 2:57:59 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Ummmm North America is a continent too. I used the regional data because someone mentioned Canada. No I will not compare Germany to the US, as their histories and sociology is different. Also, no one has mentioned that 70% of violent crimes are committed with a firearm. Yes if a magic wand could be waved the violent crime rates could be reduced. Glad there are no magic wands.



You say you won't compare the USA to Germany because their histories and sociologies supposedly are too different - and then proceed to defend comparing two vastly more different regions.


No I gave a reason, not a defense.

quote:


North America includes Canada, Mexico and the USA. Canada and Mexico both have very strict gun control laws. Mexico also has a severe problem with weapons smuggling from the USA, along with a major drug war.

Europe includes such countries as Germany, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Moldova, Finland, Spain, Russia, Bulgaria, Turkey, Portugal, Ireland, Liechtenstein, Norway, and quite a few more. And Europe even includes a few war-torn countries.

Talk about comparing apples and nuts to oranges and machine screws!

The 70% of violent crimes are a US figure; in other countries, the numbers are far lower. That's the whole point.


Not sure what you believe you are arguing and with whom. I see too many red herrings for me to scoop them all up.

Hope that all works out for you.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to cadenas)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Police protection v Concealed carry - 1/2/2009 2:59:23 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Since leaving my former employer I still own and carry on occasion. Have not had to pull my weapon or even think of pulling my weapon since then. Why is it assumed so many others do or would?



I'm not assuming anything, just reading the posts and hearing things in person.

Every gun thread has several posts with people detailing the stories of that very thing, including this thread.

Which leads me to believe that if you have a new toy you are going to find a reason to use it, or at least pull it out for everyone to admire.



The part in bold is the portion that appears to be an assumption.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Police protection v Concealed carry - 1/2/2009 4:31:46 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline 		 
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I'm not assuming anything, just reading the posts and hearing things in person.

Every gun thread has several posts with people detailing the stories of that very thing, including this thread.

Which leads me to believe that if you have a new toy you are going to find a reason to use it, or at least pull it out for everyone to admire.



The part in bold is the portion that appears to be an assumption.


I think you can safely assume any statement that starts with "which leads me to believe" is an assumption. 

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 1/2/2009 4:41:24 PM >

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Police protection v Concealed carry - 1/2/2009 4:48:54 PM   
sujuguete


Posts: 263
Joined: 7/3/2008
From: DC metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife 
Why is it we never hear stories from those who don't have guns talking about the situations in which they wished they had a gun to protect themselves?


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4069761537893819675&p


quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix1heather
Why don't you hear about guns saving lives? 


http://northshorejournal.org/jeanne-assam-hero-for-our-time



_____________________________

"The true man wants two things: danger and play. For this reason he wants woman, as the most dangerous plaything." ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Police protection v Concealed carry - 1/2/2009 5:57:06 PM   
phoenix1heather


Posts: 14
Joined: 7/13/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sujuguete


quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix1heather
Why don't you hear about guns saving lives? 


http://northshorejournal.org/jeanne-assam-hero-for-our-time




Thanks ever so much for cherry picking what I said.  Why didn't you include the entire passage that I wrote?  Which was:

Why don't you hear about guns saving lives?  Because the press tends to the left and the left's agenda includes massive gun control.  It's counter productive to give any air, or ink, to the many thousands of defensive gun uses that occur each day.

Despite the fact that you give an example of a defensive gun use in your reply, the little pic at the bottom is quite unflattering.  There's a difference between being a defender and being a killer.  There's thousands of other daily gun usages that never involve a shot being fired.  The press only covers the ones where someone gets hurt or killed.

Those that think because a person chooses to carry a firearm that they will "look for a reason to use it" have obviously never been trained in firearms.  I carry every time I leave my home, but part of the training I have always received included situational awareness and threat avoidance.  I hope the only thing I use it for is USPSA shooting but OTOH I'm not going to be a victim either.

For the poster who's so happy that he lives in a place where the law gives him the right to carry.  NO, you live in a place that recognizes that you have a god given right to defend yourself by virtue of being human.  The second amendment just says the right to keep and bear arms may not be infringed.  It gives you nothing, you already have it.

This is a tough topic because it so rarely stays civil.  People have strong feelings about this one way or the other and a middle ground cannot be found.  I dislike religious conversations as well

(in reply to sujuguete)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Police protection v Concealed carry - 1/4/2009 2:23:38 PM   
sujuguete


Posts: 263
Joined: 7/3/2008
From: DC metro area
Status: offline 		Mea culpa.  I didn't even look to the bottom of that page and see the pic attributed to an Australian site.  All I saw was the text of the article from the Denver Post, which was what I wanted to show.

And I was just pointing out that occasionally even our left-leaning media reports on guns being used to save lives.

_____________________________

"The true man wants two things: danger and play. For this reason he wants woman, as the most dangerous plaything." ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

(in reply to phoenix1heather)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Police protection v Concealed carry - 1/5/2009 5:58:27 PM   
phoenix1heather


Posts: 14
Joined: 7/13/2008
Status: offline 		Unfortunately, that is the exception rather than the rule.  I would almost be willing to bet that had that situation come to an end when the lady presented her weapon and ordered the assailant to drop his weapon without a single shot fired, it never would have been covered.

(in reply to sujuguete)
Profile   Post #: 75
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