Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

Illinois Irony


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> Illinois Irony Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Illinois Irony - 1/1/2009 12:28:06 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
Regardless of how crass or corrupt Rod Blagojevich might be, one thing seems painfully clear:  He understands law better than those seeking his removal from office.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid has pronounced that no Blagojevich appointee will be seated in the U.S. Senate, relying on the power afforded both Houses of Congress under Article I §5 of the Constitution to "judge the qualifications...." of their respective members.  However, Reid's pronouncement conveniently ignores Powell v. McCormack, which explicitly refutes Reid's interpretation of that clause:
quote:

In order to determine the scope of any "textual commitment" under Art. I, § 5, we necessarily must determine the meaning of the phrase to "be the Judge of the Qualifications of its own Members." Petitioners argue that the records of the debates during the Constitutional Convention; available commentary from the post-Convention, pre-ratification period, and early congressional applications of Art. I, § 5, support their construction of the section. Respondents insist, however, that a careful examination of the pre-Convention practices of the English Parliament and American colonial assemblies demonstrates that, by 1787, a legislature's power to judge the qualifications of its members was generally understood to encompass exclusion or expulsion on the ground that an individual's character or past conduct rendered him unfit to serve. When the Constitution and the debates over its adoption are thus viewed in historical perspective, argue respondents, it becomes clear that the "qualifications" expressly set forth in the Constitution were not meant to limit the long-recognized legislative power to exclude or expel at will, but merely to establish "standing incapacities," which could be altered only by a constitutional amendment. Our examination of the relevant historical materials leads us to the conclusion that petitioners are correct, and that the Constitution leaves the House [Footnote 44] without authority to exclude any person, duly elected by his constituents, who meets all the requirements for membership expressly prescribed in the Constitution.

The 17th Amendment delegates to the individual states the power to determine the means of filling their Senatorial vacancies, explicitly including the option of delegation the power of appointment to the state's chief executive:
quote:

... the legislature of any State may empower the executive thereof to make temporary appointments until the people fill the vacancies by election as the legislature may direct.

Illinois statute reflects this by empowering the governor to fill a vacancy until the next election:
quote:

When a vacancy shall occur in the office of United States Senator from this state, the Governor shall make temporary appointment to fill such vacancy until the next election of representatives in Congress, at which time such vacancy shall be filled by election, and the senator so elected shall take office as soon thereafter as he shall receive his certificate of election.

Regardless of the charges arrayed against Blagojevich, one fact is undeniable:  He is the current Governor of the State of Illinois, and his powers as Governor are neither diminished nor restricted.  That is the the judgment of the Illinois Supreme Court, when it denied Attorney General Lisa Madigan's request to have Blagojevich unfit to serve--unless and until he is impeached, Rod Blagojevich is the Governor of the State of Illinois.

The Illinois Legislature has the capacity to remove the gubanatorial appointment power, as it is granted by statute and thus may be revoked by statute--a 3/5 vote of both houses of the Legislature would render the legislation veto-proof, per Article 4 §9 of the Illinois Constitution.  As the Lieutenant Governor is also part of the Executive Branch, explicitly identified as such in the Illinois Constitution, arguably the Legislature might even have dodged calls for a special election by transferring the appointment power to the Lieutenant Governor, even while Blagojevich remains in office pending a presumably successful impeachment process.

The Legislature demurred, however, and no such bill has even been introduced in either house.  Now, U.S. Senate leaders are left with hoping that Illinois Secretary of State Jesse White can prevail in his refusal to certify the Blagojevich appointment--which is unlikely, given that Blagojevich's capacity to act as Governor has already been adjudicated by the Illinois Supreme Court, and that the statute imposes no requirement for certification by the Secretary of State for the appointment to stand.

Thus Blagojevich was handed a slim opportunity to turn the tables on his adversaries, and has taken full advantage.  Roland Burris is by all outward appearances Consitutionally qualified to serve in the Senate, and no evidence has surfaced thus far linking him to Blagojevich's crass efforts to "auction" off the appointment.  While Blagojevich himself appears irredeemably corrupted, an argument that his appointment of Burris is similarly corrupted is far less persuasive, undermined by the failed efforts to judicially oust him:  He is able to act, he is authorized and even required to act to appoint someone to fill the vacant Senate seat, and, per the laws of both the United States and the State of Illinois, he has acted.

In addition to the certain delight of thumbing his nose at the pontifications of Harry Reid as well as the impeachment efforts within the Illinois House of Representatives, Blagojevich might also have strengthened his hand against impeachment--a long standing maxim of common law, qui tacet consentire videtur (he who keeps silent is assumed to consent) renders the Illinois Legislature complicit in his appointment of Burris.  In choosing not to alter Illinois statute to remove his appointment power, they in essence validated the continuing effect of that power; if the Legislature consents to his continued statutorily derived powers, their capacity to impeach becomes suspect (a process which is murky and ill-defined already); the Legislature has also left itself in the uncomfortable position of having the impeachment trial itself stand as an opening trial on the merits of U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald's charges (the oath of Illinois Senators when trying an impeachment is to "do justice according to law.")--which puts the U.S. Attorney somewhat at odds with the Legislature (already, Fitzgerald has asked the Legislature not to subpoena Rahm Emmanuel and Valerie Jarrett).

Thus, by making the Burris appointment, Blagojevich has made his impeachment a political necessity for politicians from Springfield to Washington, yet dramatically raised the bar for that impeachment--all because he knows the statutes better than his opponents.

A sad irony when the putative criminal has a finer grasp of law than those who would indict, impeach, and incarcerate him.


_____________________________


Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Illinois Irony - 1/1/2009 1:11:29 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
CL, what do you expect, Harry Reid's an Asshole!
Just *Another* fossil who's been in office WAY too long!
We *really do* need to have Term Limits!
Look at Robert "Sheets" Bird of W. Vir., he's fucking *90*!
Twelve years is too much for any one person to be in the senate.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Illinois Irony - 1/1/2009 1:19:19 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

CL, what do you expect, Harry Reid's an Asshole!

He's far too inept to merit the term "asshole", frankly.  "Asswipe" is a far better description, given the ineptitude of his tenure as Majority Leader.

As for my expectation, my first expectation would be that Reid, et al, actually pause long enough to familiarize themselves with the full extent of applicable law--the saddest irony of all in the Blagojevich scandal is the bevy of legislators lacking even a passing familiarity with applicable statutes.

My second expectation, an evolution of the first, is that any effort to impeach and remove Blagojevich (or any politician) proceed from a rigorous examination of the particulars of the law, rather than bowing to shifting political winds.

Blagojevich's appointment of Burris, in addition to being a shrewd legal gambit, may also prove to be the most apolitical move in this entire drama.

< Message edited by celticlord2112 -- 1/1/2009 1:20:10 PM >


_____________________________



(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Illinois Irony - 1/1/2009 1:23:42 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
IL, CA, NJ, FL are all pretty close to bankruptcy.   no gawking here- many states are.. with the remaining to be adversely effected.

I had a chat with my brother on this- in so far as taxes go.  I said- if 30 % of a town has tight finances and cant or wont pay property tax, then that means the other 70% will have to pay more.   that such could mean that a 2nd property might now be a good deal at any price.

IL got on my one nerve... when they passed a sales tax increase in 1987 to go to a stadium.  at that time food was taxed full rate there. 

crooked politicons are no shock. not really.  consider how wall street execs think they are not doing their job unless they are being sued.

I dont think blogy is any worse then the other crooks IL had.   the influence peddling happens everytime, and most every where.  some of good at being subtle over it- some are not.

....also- no one gets into office that is skelton free,  the cabal that rules behind the sceens must have a scandal -- to make the pol do what they expect.  when a pol doesnt then all of a sudden a scandal conveninetly happens.   this is not happenstance.   it is a giant chess game.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Illinois Irony - 1/1/2009 3:49:09 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline
Hunky, put down the bong, step away from the bag and put your hands on top of your head ! In other words that was quite out of sorts with the flow.

Now, as to the topic, I have seen this. I have protected myself legally, even if guilty, and saw it happen more recently. My buddy got busted with a bunch of plants, you know the kind. Well he is aquitted on appeal. Details available on request.

This can happen for you, say on a drunk driving charge.  All you need is the $50,000 lawyer instead of the $1,000 lawyer. Look at OJ Simpson. Anyone else would have been convicted. I said nothing about innocence or guilt, just that without that money, they would have been convicted.

Now you know why law labraries are so BIG.

T

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Illinois Irony - 1/1/2009 4:39:24 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
It's a shame to see Burris destroy his political career...Despite all the legal or political wrangling Blagojevich  will be impeached. Any appointee to the Senate by Blagojevich  will not be affirmed.

Burris is a desperate man and pinning his hopes on a dead hoarse. He will be tainted by his attempt to gain the Senate in this manner. He will be forever dead to Illinois voters...at least this is my opinion

Butch

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Illinois Irony - 1/1/2009 4:52:41 PM   
GoodFeathers


Posts: 202
Joined: 11/20/2008
Status: offline
kdsub is probably correct.

However, I believe he what he will lose in political power, he will gain in Hollywood swagger.  Not unlike those who came before him, in similarly corrupt manner, he is bound to be immortalized by some insolent cinematic genius, thus giving Mr. Blagojevich & Mr. Burris more clout with the people than he could ever really have in the political circuit.  I can see the playbill now:  The Blagojevich Brotherhood,  Charlie Sheen will unfurl a new side of his career as a dramatic actor when he accepts the role as Blagojevich, Harry Reid will probably be played by Peter Fonda, assuming Mr. Fonda is still alive.    

_____________________________

"The more I learn, the more I realize I haven't learned enough."

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Illinois Irony - 1/1/2009 6:27:16 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
Hey, it's "The Chicago Way."

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to GoodFeathers)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Illinois Irony - 1/1/2009 6:52:49 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

Any appointee to the Senate by Blagojevich will not be affirmed.

While that is a distinct possibility, it is by no means a certain outcome.  As matters stand now, there are few if any substantive grounds for rejecting Burris, absent a clear connection to a criminal act by Blagojevich.  The language of Powell v McCormack is fairly explicit--the U.S. Senate authority to exclude is limited to an evaluation of Constitutional qualifications exclusively (even though Powell addressed the House of Representatives, the relevant clause in the Constitution applies to both houses of Congress equally). 

Blagojevich is crude, crass, corrupt, and in the eyes of the public forever tainted.  He is also the Governor of Illinois, and as yet still fully empowered to act as such.  The Burris appointment is in keeping with his statutorily prescribed authority.  Unless a substantial allegation of bribery or other misconduct can be attached specifically to the Burris appointment, as an operation of law it cannot be "tainted" by Blagojevich's other legal problems--if that were so, Blagojevich would have been declared incapacitated by the Illinois Supreme Court, which it explicitly refused to do.  Blagojevich has been under investigation since at least 2006, and that basic fact has been essentially common knowledge for quite some time, yet politicians in Washington and Springfield were comfortable with him filling the vacant Senate seat.  Despite his arrest and the wave of bad press, legally speaking, the circumstances have not changed much, if at all.

Even if Blagojevich is impeached, impeachment itself does not automatically rescind gubernatorial decisions; Blagojevich's powers are legally undiminished, and that includes his power to appoint.  Subsequent removal from office does not invalidate an appointment made even before articles of impeachment were voted by the Illinois House of Representatives.  Burris would have a most interesting court case should he insist on claiming the appointment even after a Blagojevich impeachment--assuming Blagojevich is removed from office. 

If Blagojevich survives impeachment, then Burris almost certainly will be sworn in as the junior Senator from Illinois.


_____________________________



(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Illinois Irony - 1/1/2009 7:24:59 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
OK..here I will show my ignorance...I thought...could sure be wrong... that any nominee by the Governor had to get the OK from the Illinois legislature..Am I wrong?

If not I'm sure a legislative vote does not need legal reasons for a vote for or against.... Any vote "FOR" would be political suicide at least under these circumstances.

That's why I don't think there is a snow balls chance in hell for Burris.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/1/2009 7:31:51 PM >

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Illinois Irony - 1/1/2009 7:31:22 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

that any nominee by the Governor had to get the OK from the Illinois legislature..Am I wrong?

The relevant Illinois statute grants the Governor the power of appointment, not nomination.  The Legislature has no say in the matter unless and until they revise the statute--a step they have conspicuously declined to take, given Senator Durbin's call for a special election to remove the specter of a tainted appointment.


_____________________________



(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Illinois Irony - 1/1/2009 7:43:39 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

that any nominee by the Governor had to get the OK from the Illinois legislature..Am I wrong?

The relevant Illinois statute grants the Governor the power of appointment, not nomination.  The Legislature has no say in the matter unless and until they revise the statute--a step they have conspicuously declined to take, given Senator Durbin's call for a special election to remove the specter of a tainted appointment.



Thanks Celticlord...but I do see where there is speculation the Senate will stall and not swear in Burris until Blagojevich is impeached...and a new appointment is made by Quinn.

Also if it becomes necessary Jesse White will refuse to sign the papers for the appointment... that would force the appointment back to the courts... giving time for impeachment.

Butch

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Illinois Irony - 1/1/2009 7:49:22 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
More to my point however is Burris and his future. To me it shows poor judgement on his part. So poor I would not trust his decision making in Washington. I think most Illinois residents would agree. His political future in Illinois is at an end.

Butch

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Illinois Irony - 1/1/2009 7:49:27 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

Also if it becomes necessary Jesse White will refuse to sign the papers for the appointment... that would force the appointment back to the courts... giving time for impeachment.

Burris has already petitioned the Illinois Supreme Court to force the issue.  I suspect he will prevail.

The point no one is mentioning yet, though, is that nowhere does it say that impeachment automatically invalidates the appointment.  Unless the appointment itself can be shown to be criminally tainted, unless there is some other procedural irregularity (and declamations from Harry Reid and Dick Durbin for Blagojevich to recuse himself from the appointment process have no substance in this regard), on what grounds does the impeachment itself invalidate the Burris' appointment?


_____________________________



(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Illinois Irony - 1/1/2009 7:52:13 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

More to my point however is Burris and his future. To me it shows poor judgement on his part. So poor I would not trust his decision making in Washington. I think most Illinois residents would agree. His political future in Illinois is at an end.

Politically speaking, you may be correct.


_____________________________



(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Illinois Irony - 1/1/2009 7:56:22 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Also if it becomes necessary Jesse White will refuse to sign the papers for the appointment... that would force the appointment back to the courts... giving time for impeachment.

Burris has already petitioned the Illinois Supreme Court to force the issue.  I suspect he will prevail.

The point no one is mentioning yet, though, is that nowhere does it say that impeachment automatically invalidates the appointment.  Unless the appointment itself can be shown to be criminally tainted, unless there is some other procedural irregularity (and declamations from Harry Reid and Dick Durbin for Blagojevich to recuse himself from the appointment process have no substance in this regard), on what grounds does the impeachment itself invalidate the Burris' appointment?



From what I just read the validity is not important. The Senate does not have to swear him in… If necessary the leaders of the Senate say they will refer his appointment to the rules committee.

This will effectively kill his appointment…at least until the impeachment. Quinn then has the power to withdraw the appointment and name someone else.

Butch

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Illinois Irony - 1/1/2009 8:37:57 PM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline
Burris's career in Chicago has been "over" for years. He hasn't been able to win an election to a higher office than AG in years. Burris has nothing to lose by pushing for this position, and everything to gain, including a lifetime pension, and all the other perks Congress gives itself.

Not to mention Burris is in his 70's

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Illinois Irony - 1/1/2009 8:40:32 PM   
Lorr47


Posts: 862
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

From what I just read the validity is not important. The Senate does not have to swear him in… If necessary the leaders of the Senate say they will refer his appointment to the rules committee.

This will effectively kill his appointment…at least until the impeachment. Quinn then has the power to withdraw the appointment and name someone else.

Butch


From CL's materials:

So far, the governor has the power to appoint;
As of yet, the Illinois State houses have no authority to stop him;
Congress has no authority to refuse to seat the nominee.

So, it would seem that the nominee has to be seated.

I was figuratively yelled at when I opined that the "for cause" wording in the Illinois Constitution was going to cause problems; that the federal atty should have waited until the $1.00 for the seat changed hands rather than base the charge on "conspiracy;"  that while the gov may leave office it will be on his own terms and I doubt he will be convicted of anything.  They wet their pants when they saw how he was talking and charged months too early.

As to Termyn8or's marijuana and expensive attorney reference.  Boy gets busted and charged with attempted delivery of marijuana.  Boy get court appointed attorney who makes motion to suppress based on difference between burning and burnt marijuana..  Judge suppresses marijuana.  Boy gets up and asks "Am I free to go?"  Judge says "yes, the case is dismissed"  Boy raises his hand and further asks "Can I have my marijuana back?"  Attorney bills statutory $150.00. 

The resolution of some fact situations is simple.  The feds strewed up.

(If I were in my 70's and the governor offered me a Senate seat, why not?  It would piss off so many people.  However, how would I move all my guns to DC?)
                             

< Message edited by Lorr47 -- 1/1/2009 8:46:49 PM >

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Illinois Irony - 1/1/2009 8:50:38 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

Quinn then has the power to withdraw the appointment and name someone else.

Does he? Nothing in the statute suggests the appointment is at the pleasure of the governor, which to my mind suggests that Quinn could withdraw the appointment only "for cause"--assuming he can withdraw the appointment at all.


_____________________________



(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Illinois Irony - 1/1/2009 8:53:33 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47

quote:

From what I just read the validity is not important. The Senate does not have to swear him in… If necessary the leaders of the Senate say they will refer his appointment to the rules committee.

This will effectively kill his appointment…at least until the impeachment. Quinn then has the power to withdraw the appointment and name someone else.

Butch


From CL's materials:

So far, the governor has the power to appoint;
As of yet, the Illinois State houses have no authority to stop him;
Congress has no authority to refuse to seat the nominee.

So, it would seem that the nominee has to be seated.

I was figuratively yelled at when I opined that the "for cause" wording in the Illinois Constitution was going to cause problems; that the federal atty should have waited until the $1.00 for the seat changed hands rather than base the charge on "conspiracy;"  that while the gov may leave office it will be on his own terms and I doubt he will be convicted of anything.  They wet their pants when they saw how he was talking and charged months too early.

As to Termyn8or's marijuana and expensive attorney reference.  Boy gets busted and charged with attempted delivery of marijuana.  Boy get court appointed attorney who makes motion to suppress based on difference between burning and burnt marijuana..  Judge suppresses marijuana.  Boy gets up and asks "Am I free to go?"  Judge says "yes, the case is dismissed"  Boy raises his hand and further asks "Can I have my marijuana back?"  Attorney bills statutory $150.00. 

The resolution of some fact situations is simple.  The feds strewed up.

(If I were in my 70's and the governor offered me a Senate seat, why not?  It would piss off so many people.  However, how would I move all my guns to DC?)
                            


Lorr47 I believe you are wrong...The senate DOES have the power not to seat Burris.. if they do it or not is another matter. At least that is what my search found.

Butch

(in reply to Lorr47)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> Illinois Irony Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.125