Education for the dolites

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Aneirin -> Education for the dolites (1/3/2009 7:57:03 AM)
With all these job losses and redundancies in this present economic climate, would it not be better for the government to instead of forcing people back into employment, any employment to soothe the statistics, to actually invest in our future ? Invest in that those that find themselves without work, if they are looking for a change in career direction, actually let them sign on at colleges and other schools of higher education, so at least they are working for their subsistance, and stand to get a viable piece of paper at the end of it and a set of new skills. Skills which I might add, might very well be of use, when this country is forced to take a change of direction. To understand, many people in employment are not happy in employment, they seek a career change, but cannot make the jump due to economics, i.e. you get no support if you want to better yourself, unlike many other further thinking countries. People going into education during this economic climate serves several purposes, there are many positives about the action, one being skills for the future and a happier workforce, assured employment for educators and learning establishments, valuable training in how to live cheap, i.e, not spending above one's means. It is just a sore pity governments do not recognise the positives that can be had from this recession. Oh, except in the UK training is available for dolites, sometimes compulsory training, with a government contractor,a company called 'A4E ', an outfit so people tell me who have done their training is so inept, all it causes is anger, the training which is aimed at the thickest of the thick, insulting to those that do it. Has anyone any thoughts about this, would this be a good idea for this current situation, which to be honest, whether it be the actual economics of the situation or the mood of the population, may well last for a long time ?

LadyEllen -> RE: Education for the dolites (1/3/2009 8:16:01 AM)
Of course it would be a good idea; so it will not be considered. My friend is a qualified engineer. He was made redundant eighteen months ago and thought he'd go and retrain as a gas fitter what with engineering being a fairly useless skill in our modern consumer credit economy. He could certainly have completed the course and got back into steady employment with a decent wage. Only problem was he'd have to pay for the training himself and wouldnt be eligible for any benefits whilst training - with the follow on consequence that the insurance he'd taken out to cover his mortgage etc would be null and void since he wasnt counted as unemployed. We sat down and looked at it - a cost of around £5000-00 in terms of the training course and loss of income whilst training, alongside the likelihood of being repossessed and/or declared bankrupt about halfway through the course. He signed on again. Luckily he got a new job in aerospace engineering about seven months later, but this is understood to be fairly temporary since most of the work is being moved to China in the next two to three years. So, at around 50 years of age he will likely be dumped on unemployment for the rest of his life, homeless and bankrupt - unless he manages to compete with 17 year olds for a job in a shop that is going nowhere and wont pay adult bills. Overall though I guess the question is "for what do we retrain people?". If we're to rely on consumer credit economics again, as seems the intent behind propping up the shambles that this system got us into, retraining only makes sense if we retrain people for jobs in shops, administration or government services - and lets face it, anyone with half a brain can do those jobs with around two hours training on the job. And yes, I have friends who have told me about the "training courses" offered by the dole office. A total waste of time and money yielding no employable skills whatever that were not present in the first place; insulting, humiliating, demoralising. Still, they do get people off the numbers for a week or few. E

came4U -> RE: Education for the dolites (1/3/2009 8:17:01 AM)
Canada has education and employment strategies already in place, GM and other manufacturers are shutting down now or will be by 2010. Laid off? Take a seat and find out what's next Second Career is an Ontario government program that offers training for a new job, including financial support. Second Career provides career planning and financial support (up to $30,000)specially designed to help laid-off Ontarians participate in long-term training for a new job. Career counsellors in Employment Ontario offices across the province can help you take the first step. http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/tcu/secondcareer/

TheHeretic -> RE: Education for the dolites (1/3/2009 8:43:44 AM)
I was talking to a friend the other day, the owner of a small business that does custom manufacturing and fabrication, and he needed to vent a little bit. It isn't patience, understanding, and educational entitlements his employees need, it's a swift kick in the ass. These are decent jobs. The pay scale starts south of $10 an hour, but as they learn the specialized skills of the trade, they can easily double that within a year. On top of that, his company is a great stepping stone into the very good jobs around here, building airplanes from scratch. This is supposed to be a rough economy, but what does he get? People who don't give a shit. People who will screw something up, know they screwed it, and rather than working late to fix it (with O/T, of course), will try to sneak it onto the truck without quality control seeing the job. He gets people who dump negative energy into the environment all day, bitching about not having the money to pay bills, but still want to quit early on Friday, and are sick on Monday. Got a class that teaches the skills these folks are lacking?

Aneirin -> RE: Education for the dolites (1/3/2009 8:55:05 AM)
I used to think I was one of the government maligned, one of the sector of people the government is trying to shift public oppinion onto as the money drain, but no, I am not, true I am on the subsistance, but I am heavily engaged in a five year part time honours degree course, completion of which will give me a Bachelor of Arts in my chosen profession, that of my natural skills, the skills I had from a very young age, skills I was naturally good at and enjoyed using. The employment I left had many faults, the biggest being the health risk, daily working in contaminated atmospheres, with all manner of chemicals and pollutants, ranging from diesel fumes, petrol fumes, spirit cleaning fumes, wood dust, concrete dust, sewage and all manner of mineral oil based nasties. That combined with lethal voltages, explosives, volatile fuels and nasty vicious mechanical cutting, crunching, breaking and grinding machines. Health and Safety at work, personal protective equipment, though it was provided, it disabled the ability to do the job, so it was not used, ever try to tune a two cycle engine on a high revving cutting machine by ear with ear defenders on, it can't be done, an untuned engine is dangerous for the end user, failures we made risked lives, I was in a very responsible employment but without the pay packet to match, so I quit after ten years, an industry I trained myself to be one of the better at in my part of the world. But, back to the college, it is hard work, the academia, perhaps the hardest academia I have ever done, that combined with a mind for working, not learning. From this education I have discovered skills I never knew I had, one being the natural ability to teach others, and in particular people with communication and learning difficulties, a natural talent my tutors say, which I should pursue as well as my chosen profession. The trouble is, I really ought to be studying full time, but labour rules prevent this, I am limited to sixteen hours a week, I go above, and I lose subsistance, survival allowance, benefits if you prefer. If I studied full time, my course would be three years, plus another two for a teaching qualification, so a course could yield an option of two types of employment, both of which are useful to the countries future, the problem is those of us who are not 'laying around on our backsides' and actually retraining ourselves are lumped in with those that are doing nothing, and so the government continuinly pushes for us to do government training courses with a view to improving the statistics, none of which will work, because skills that are existing are of no use for the present employment market, low paid and demoralising. Another angle, I do believe there is a link between ill health to include depression and one's employment, it's status and prospects, in short if the workforce are demoralised, stuck, unhappy, that is an opening for illness of the depressive kind.

missturbation -> RE: Education for the dolites (1/3/2009 9:10:16 AM)
quote: With all these job losses and redundancies in this present economic climate, would it not be better for the government to instead of forcing people back into employment, any employment to soothe the statistics, to actually invest in our future ? The government has never had the ability to force people to work. Just look at the millions of dole dossers we have in the UK. The government does actually invest in peoples futures. There are several ads running on tv at the moment which offer training courses government funded too. I have myself trained in the past with government funding. Problem here is too that whilst training people may be a short term solution to what to do with the unemployed, it's not a long term solution. There just aren't the volume of jobs out there that there used to be. Even when you have finished training there may not be any vacant positions available in that field. Personally if i was out of work i would be glad of the chance of a job whatever it was. I would rather be working than not. There is far to much snobbery about what we are willing to do for a living rather than accepting that we need to work to live. The economy cannot surely stand the strain of too many people on training courses, the dole because they feel they are above doing a menial job.

Aneirin -> RE: Education for the dolites (1/3/2009 9:26:03 AM)
I am training to start my own business, I have ideas that via the business, it serves many requirements, to include holiday/leisure, manufacturing, repair services, education and something for the kinky inclined, a personal service as such. These plans I though of years ago, I researched my ideas, consulted others and have arrived at the conclusion that my ideas are viable, all I need now is the training in some areas, the relevant bits of paper, and the networking abilities. I am also a semi pro qualified photographer, something which I will include in my business ideas. I intend to enjoy my future employment and via enjoyment, I hope it will go from strength to strength. The idea as it is, I am not putting all my eggs in one basket so to speak, by covering various disciplines in industry, I believe my business will ride out any or most downturns that may transpire in the future, plus doing something different now and again is fun. With doing 'anything' in order to live, the point always comes where weighing up between the need to live and risking life and limb must come. Also just putting food on the table is not life these days, we have been conditioned to understand that life means more than food in the belly and a place to sleep. People want more from life than what our ancestors had, whose fault is that ?

alysia -> RE: Education for the dolites (1/3/2009 9:41:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation quote: With all these job losses and redundancies in this present economic climate, would it not be better for the government to instead of forcing people back into employment, any employment to soothe the statistics, to actually invest in our future ? Personally if i was out of work i would be glad of the chance of a job whatever it was. I would rather be working than not. There is far to much snobbery about what we are willing to do for a living rather than accepting that we need to work to live. The economy cannot surely stand the strain of too many people on training courses, the dole because they feel they are above doing a menial job. alysia agrees with this statement. This girl would rather work than not and if it means doing a menial job then so be it. As for too much snobbery about what people are willing to do for a living... alysia has heard friends and aquintances say they would not get out of bed for the national minimum wage and then complain that immigrants are taking all our jobs. Yes they are taking a lot of the jobs because they don't mind what they do or that it is the national minimum wage as long as they are working and earning honest money and good for them! Some people need to step back and take a good look at themselves; it is not that they are too good for the job or that it pays too little, it's that they are too lazy to get off their backside! As for the training, it is a good idea and a nice idea but don't know if it would be achievable or sustainable.

missturbation -> RE: Education for the dolites (1/3/2009 9:44:12 AM)
quote: With doing 'anything' in order to live, the point always comes where weighing up between the need to live and risking life and limb must come. Also just putting food on the table is not life these days, we have been conditioned to understand that life means more than food in the belly and a place to sleep. People want more from life than what our ancestors had, whose fault is that ? Could you go into a little more detail about 'the need to live and risking life and limb' for me please? I agree that we have come to expect more from life than just surviving but we need to remember that luxuries are just that! When it boils down to it we don't need luxuries to survive, sure they are nice and sure they are good for morale, the soul etc etc, but they are not essential. I make a reasonable living to be fair and im not struggling to make ends meet. I know loads of people that are though and would be grateful just to have a job and make ends meet, never mind the luxuries. Its about priorities and luxuries and having a job we love just aren't.

Aneirin -> RE: Education for the dolites (1/3/2009 10:13:04 AM)
Sure, my last ten years of work, very risky business, many a time have I been on the end of cranes and gantries inspecting pullies and mountings, working in 'gas' atmospheres, scaling pole ladders and scaffolds, thetype of work were adrenalin features much. Also the workshop facilities mentioned in a post above, I got to point where diesel engine fumes no longer bothered me, and that in an enclosed space, worrying. The ten years before, I was armed forces. My last work, the pay was such that it just payed my rent, food and car running costs, to get to work. Little was left, and it was the low pay was typical of the region, whereas my last location it payed twice as much, where there I kept a family with cash to spare.

LadyEllen -> RE: Education for the dolites (1/3/2009 10:28:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: alysia Personally if i was out of work i would be glad of the chance of a job whatever it was. I would rather be working than not. There is far to much snobbery about what we are willing to do for a living rather than accepting that we need to work to live. The economy cannot surely stand the strain of too many people on training courses, the dole because they feel they are above doing a menial job. alysia agrees with this statement. This girl would rather work than not and if it means doing a menial job then so be it. As for too much snobbery about what people are willing to do for a living... alysia has heard friends and aquintances say they would not get out of bed for the national minimum wage and then complain that immigrants are taking all our jobs. Yes they are taking a lot of the jobs because they don't mind what they do or that it is the national minimum wage as long as they are working and earning honest money and good for them! Some people need to step back and take a good look at themselves; it is not that they are too good for the job or that it pays too little, it's that they are too lazy to get off their backside! As for the training, it is a good idea and a nice idea but don't know if it would be achievable or sustainable. There are most definitely a hard core of scrounging useless layabouts out there, but its important to take into account the benefits trap when talking about this. Dole at fifty quid a week or so is nothing next to all the other benefits one might be entitled to - combined they mean that it literally isnt worth going to work unless one is going to at least earn what one gets on benefits plus the expenses of going out to work. This "required salary level" will vary from person to person, but I'd guesstimate that for most it wouldnt be worth doing any job paying less than £15k per annum before tax, since their benefits exceed this. The real problem is, we dont have enough well paid jobs - albeit we have a plethora of vacancies as the government keeps reminding us, for low paid, part time and temporary jobs that arent worthwhile. E

missturbation -> RE: Education for the dolites (1/3/2009 10:31:49 AM)
Ah i see, you meant hazardous work. With respect i assume you trained to do those jobs, chose to do those jobs? If it was the only work you could get then i am sorry you had to do that. However you still had a choice to do it or not. A lot of people choose jobs such as those you mentioned though for various reasons including financial reasons. 'Danger money' can be very attractive to some. There is some danger in every job though surely? The risks will vary of course, but long term most jobs will cause you some kind of health problem.

Lynnxz -> RE: Education for the dolites (1/3/2009 10:36:30 AM)
Honestly some people just choose not to make use of their education. Some of C's WORST employees were guys that had gone to school and become certified welders. The best? Immigrants from Mexico and Puerto Rico who are sending cash back home. The certified guys got fired for screwing around, and the others make 20-30 bucks an hour or more depending on the job.

popeye1250 -> RE: Education for the dolites (1/3/2009 11:18:15 AM)
Aneirin, on the face of it that sounds good but why get a "degree" in computing if the big companies are just replacing programmers, I.T. workers, etc with workers from foreign countries on H1b visas at half the going rate? Or a Law degree when we have Armies of lawyers now? I think the main problem in Western countries is that we've imported good paying manufacturing jobs to other countries and that is now backfiring on the big companies who did it as people have less money to buy their products! As I've said before, most of the waitresses and waiters who've waited on me in this area have "degrees" in Psychology, Sociology or Political Science. I doubt that any of them will use those "degrees" in the ways that they had hoped. Colleges and Uni's in the U.S. have become "degree factories" pumping out vast numbers of people with "degrees" more suited to the 1970's not the 21st Century. It seems that they're looking at the bottom line and forgetting that they're "Non Profit" institutions! Look at Harvard University, they own a large portion of Cambridge, Mass on which they pay no taxes and have an "endowment" of $35-$40 Billion dollars! Does that sound like a "Non-Profit" to you? Who's better off, the waitress with a $600 per month student loan to pay for the next 15-20 years or the waitress with no "degree" who can take $600 a month and invest it in a mutual fund, reit, or bond fund or maybe start her own business? Why "invest" $125,000 in a "degree" that won't make you any more money than a fellow waitress or waiter? Many of these "degrees" today are dubious in their value. There's a Lawn Jockey who works on the golf course next to me with a "degree." Does that mean he gets to drive "the good tractor with the cupholders" because he has a "degree" and the other Lawn Jockeys don't? I think that it's bordering on criminality that colleges and unis keep pumping out hundreds of thousands of "degrees" each year that they know won't be able to get jobs in their area of study just to bolster their bottom line! When "everyone" has a "degree" what good are they employment-wise? We simply don't need 60-80% of the populace to have "degrees" when the country is hemoraging jobs to low cost slave labor countries and the corporations who do that still expect access to our markets. This "global economy" is not only bad for blue collar workers but also white collar workers as well! About 20,000 people in the U.S. have gotten obscenely rich from it while the other 299 million or so people have gotten hurt from it. As Ross Perot said; "It's a race to the bottom!"

Aneirin -> RE: Education for the dolites (1/3/2009 12:55:10 PM)
I trained myself for workshop duties, but as the company evolved into other business areas, I had to evolve too. The job I took was after the armed forces, where contrary to popular oppinion, the forces do not train a person to be a civilian employee, my trade of avionics technician was pretty damn useless in civvy street without a CAA licence, so I took a job where fixing things was the something I could do. The job I left last, the industry I was involved in paid £16k per annum, hardly a wage for the dangers involved. The wage was for unskilled labour, which was pathetic, as the skills required to service and repair a vast array of machinery from electric kettles, through chainsaws to excavating machines required some level of skill in fault finding, repair and initiative in bodge situations out on site in all weather conditions.Not only that, but bench manufacturing skills to scratch build parts that were unobtainable, use of lathe and milling machine was common, and I only devised a wax injection and casting machine for casting alloy parts we could not get. It is very sad to scrap a machine for a part that can be made with a bit of thought. So an unskilled industry, with no union representation, wages were crap for what we did. I took the job, as it was all I could get post forces, either that or a bus driver.

Aneirin -> RE: Education for the dolites (1/3/2009 1:08:35 PM)
I am training in the so called 'dead' industries, that of smithing and ceramics with a view to exploring the possibilities of advanced ceramics, old trade skills, but with advanced modern materials. What this country did was tell everyone that the old skills are dead, they won't be needed anymore, so people chose other professions to train in, I initially trained as a toolmaker, useless with manufacturing going out of this country, then a marine engineer, but merchant shipping died a death. The old trades are largely gone, but there are now people training in old trades, like dry stone wall building, thatching, smithing etc, because with those skills gone, the requirement is still there, and those trades command high wages and they are never out of work. I saw this as the way to go, manual skills from a past time, they will always be required, and I have only myself to look after. So with an interest in metal, I am furthering my skills in metal smithing, both precious metals and ferrous metals, black smithing, but of the artist variety.

LadyEllen -> RE: Education for the dolites (1/3/2009 1:50:28 PM)
I think you'll do fine Aneirin, no need for wishes of luck. I wish I had such inclinations and innate ability to develop - as it is I cant really say I have any particular skills. Yes I write well, speak English well and German tolerably, have an eye for making deals and the skill to negotiate them and can coordinate like there's no tomorrow, but ultimately all that is useless without people like you actually making things, creating the wealth to support the likes of me. Where we've gone wrong is rubbishing the likes of you and celebrating the likes of me, failing to understand the symbiotic relationship the two entail. E

TheHeretic -> RE: Education for the dolites (1/3/2009 2:25:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin where contrary to popular oppinion, the forces do not train a person to be a civilian employee, Really? Didn't you learn to show up on time? To get the job done, despite obstacles and challenges? To understand and respect that if your job wasn't done right, it impacted the efforts of the whole? To place the mission above your own immediate gratification? I'd say those are some valuable things to be trained in.

LadyEllen -> RE: Education for the dolites (1/3/2009 2:37:25 PM)
Ex military friends of mine learned all those things Rich - and found they had to unlearn all those things pretty damned quickly in civilian life or face resentment and hostility from fellow "workers". My engineer friend is ex military - he left over ten years ago and still has endless stress and frustration at the sheer ineptitude, inefficiency and disinterest of those he works with now. He simply wont understand that this is civvy street where things are very different. If only he'd relax and go with the flow and sink into the mire of the general population, he could be happy. E

celticlord2112 -> RE: Education for the dolites (1/3/2009 2:38:40 PM)
quote: Invest in that those that find themselves without work, if they are looking for a change in career direction, actually let them sign on at colleges and other schools of higher education, so at least they are working for their subsistance, and stand to get a viable piece of paper at the end of it and a set of new skills. Skills which I might add, might very well be of use, when this country is forced to take a change of direction. Only one problem with this: Colleges do not teach skills. Paying money for people to sit idly in a classroom is money down the drain. There is only one effective way for government to "invest" in an economy's future--stop sucking up all the money in taxes. When government spends, the economy loses.

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