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RE: Why I don't participate in Organized Religion. - 1/4/2009 6:57:03 AM

bluesgun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluesgun

I stay away from religion myself,

Just a coincidence that you look like Jesus Christ?

LOL, yep just that coincidence. Last I heard he was perfect.
I am way far far far away from perfect. Somedays I cant even make a
good cup of coffee.

best wishes
Blues

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I'm not a gynocologist ....but I'll take a look.

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RE: Why I don't participate in Organized Religion. - 1/4/2009 7:07:24 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bluesgun

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluesgun

I stay away from religion myself,

Just a coincidence that you look like Jesus Christ?

LOL, yep just that coincidence. Last I heard he was perfect.
I am way far far far away from perfect. Somedays I cant even make a
good cup of coffee.

best wishes
Blues

But you must be the messiah!

You just turned coffee into a whine!

E

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RE: Why I don't participate in Organized Religion. - 1/4/2009 7:13:50 AM

MarsBonfire

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Certainly the recent Jerimiah Wright, Hagee blowups during the election were entertaining... watching otherwise intelligent adults argue until they are blue in the face over which deluded pulpit thumper was "eviler" just had me rolling!

As to the thread subject: If anyone could possibly come up with a conception of God that fits with our understanding of the universe as we know it, I'd be deeply tempted to join it's congregation. Unfortuantely, every major religion on Earth is deeply rooted in myth and "facts" that are about as correct as saying the Earth is flat, supported by four titanic elephants, who stand upon a vast turtle which swims through the celestial sea. If the Bible, or Kuran, or any other holy book truely had the inside track on God and the universe, wouldn't it be chock full of verifiable facts, instead of being a mashup of barbarian history and fairy tales?

I tend to believe there is a God. (For reasons that would take me far longer to explain than I'm sure any of you would be willing to read.) I just don't think anyone on Earth has the vaugest idea of who or what God is, or what our part in the grand scheme of things really is.

Anyone who says otherwise is either deluded, or selling something.

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RE: Why I don't participate in Organized Religion. - 1/4/2009 8:59:52 AM

Termyn8or

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Well put Mars. Next comes from a friend of mine, not the brightest bulb on the tree in some things but has his moments :

If we are God's children, and this life is like a childhood, why is there noone watching us and teaching us ?

T

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RE: Why I don't participate in Organized Religion. - 1/4/2009 9:29:16 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire
As to the thread subject: If anyone could possibly come up with a conception of God that fits with our understanding of the universe as we know it, I'd be deeply tempted to join it's congregation.

I have a conception of God that fits with my understanding of the universe as I know it. I do not yet have a congregation for you to join, though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire
Unfortunately, every major religion on Earth is deeply rooted in myth and "facts" that are about as correct as saying the Earth is flat, supported by four titanic elephants, who stand upon a vast turtle which swims through the celestial sea.

Actually, that is a very accurate description that is misleading (though accurate) in one respect only - and also lacking another significant detail.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire
If the Bible, or Kuran, or any other holy book truely had the inside track on God and the universe, wouldn't it be chock full of verifiable facts, instead of being a mashup of barbarian history and fairy tales?

I do not know more than a little bit about the Kuran (seems to have been haphazardly compiled by an idiot, so I could not get through it). It is said that the Kuran in some ways is very scientific. (But there must be falsehoods in it as well, as it was not written by either Mohammed nor another Arab.) To me the bible seems accurate; its errors are easily recognizable; it is written all in "Chinese", though (gotta understand "Chinese" first).

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire
I just don't think anyone on Earth has the vaguest idea of who or what God is, or what our part in the grand scheme of things really is.

I have, I have! Me! Me!

(It might even be not as vague as that.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire
Anyone who says otherwise is either deluded, or selling something.

Hm. Am I selling something?

I guess not. Therefore: I must be deluded!

< Message edited by Rule -- 1/4/2009 9:53:43 AM >

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RE: Why I don't participate in Organized Religion. - 1/4/2009 9:49:58 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

If the Bible, or Kuran, or any other holy book truely had the inside track on God and the universe, wouldn't it be chock full of verifiable facts, instead of being a mashup of barbarian history and fairy tales?

Only if God is Man-made.

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RE: Why I don't participate in Organized Religion. - 1/4/2009 10:41:43 AM

SilverMark

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Why would you apply logic or science to something that takes faith and belief?
Religion at it's core may very well be the least logcical thing anyone is asked to believe.
To apply logic to faith will never work.

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RE: Why I don't participate in Organized Religion. - 1/4/2009 11:11:43 AM

Roselaure

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I am not a believer. I tend to avoid organized religion unless attending the life cycle events of friends and loved ones. I know a lot about religion and find it fascinating but as far as I am concerned god (any god or gods) and religion is, at best, a man made creation to explain the universe and their place in it and at its worst an elaborate scam to separate people from their money and keep them in their "place". Understandable certainly, but not for me.

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RE: Why I don't participate in Organized Religion. - 1/4/2009 2:21:50 PM

MasterG2kTR

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

I'm pretty much with George Carlin on the entire religion thing.

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!

Oh so true.....and here's a good example of the greed in religion.

This goes back about 20 years. An elderly lady that I knew had always attended church along with her husband. Every year they always paid church "dues" and always put a little something on the collection plate as well every sunday while attending mass.

Well, one day her husband died, and before the casket was allowed into the church for funeral services she had to pay $150 to the priest. She was incensed by that and asked the priest what the money they had been paying all those years went for and where is the charity the church is supposed to always be good for?

Her husband had just died and we all know funerals are not cheap, but the church has to make sure they get their cut too. That money you give to the church is NOT going to get you any front row seats in heaven!! I don't think I have ever heard of Jesus asking for any donations ever either.

On a second rant. The bible is biggest joke of all. It was not written until about 200 A.D. So, until that time it was nothing more than tribal knowledge. Diluted and exaggerated by word of mouth tellings for many generations. The bible was also a compilation of several works, with many of the so-called scriptures removed by the head of the catholic church because they were seen as blasphemous and contradictory to the beliefs of the religion. One of the biggest ones (recently seen on the History channel) was one such removed scripture that told of Jesus being married to Mary Magdalene and having had children of their own (also the basis for the DaVinci Code).

So nowadays, we have several bibles. The "old testament" and the "new testament" which differ considerably. Seems the church can change the rules and do a re-write to fit their needs. Kinda like when I was a kid you could not eat meat on friday, but now it's ok to do so.

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RE: Why I don't participate in Organized Religion. - 1/4/2009 2:51:40 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterG2kTR
It was not written until about 200 A.D. So nowadays, we have several bibles. The "old testament" and the "new testament" which differ considerably.

Old testament scriptures were extant before the birth of Jesus. New testament scriptures as far as I recall were all written during the first century after the birth of Jesus.

Of course the OT and the NT differ considerably. The OT is not christian and the NT is christian. The difference is a factor five or six less congenitally inherited diseases.

< Message edited by Rule -- 1/4/2009 2:52:21 PM >

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RE: Why I don't participate in Organized Religion. - 1/4/2009 5:19:58 PM

MarsBonfire

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celticlord wrote:

"Only if God is man made."

I think you missed my point. If the Bible, or any other holy book was the work of God, then there would be things in it that we wouldn't have known beforehand. Things that we would have verified only after our science advanced to the point where we could understand them.

If some yokel came into town saying he'd been abducted by a UFO, and the aliens gave him the secret to nuclear fusion... and the plans obviously won't work... I'm inclined to disbelieve his story. If on the other hand, his facts check out, and we all start enjoying limitless, pollution-free energy, then maybe he was telling the truth. But the Bible and other "holy books" offer nothing like that... and their claims are far more wild than the yokel's. They are claiming that we should all give up 10% of our money, and enslave our minds to a vast power that ultimately created everything*... the yokel just wants us to believe that there might be other living beings elsewhere in the universe more advanced than us.

*oh and while you're at it:
give up your forskin
sex is dirty
gays are a threat to mankind
radical female circumcision
condoms are forbidden
AIDS is God's wrath
creationisim is the law
kill the unbelievers!

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RE: Why I don't participate in Organized Religion. - 1/4/2009 6:19:43 PM

jlf1961

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

celticlord wrote:

"Only if God is man made."

I think you missed my point. If the Bible, or any other holy book was the work of God, then there would be things in it that we wouldn't have known beforehand. Things that we would have verified only after our science advanced to the point where we could understand them.

If some yokel came into town saying he'd been abducted by a UFO, and the aliens gave him the secret to nuclear fusion... and the plans obviously won't work... I'm inclined to disbelieve his story. If on the other hand, his facts check out, and we all start enjoying limitless, pollution-free energy, then maybe he was telling the truth. But the Bible and other "holy books" offer nothing like that... and their claims are far more wild than the yokel's. They are claiming that we should all give up 10% of our money, and enslave our minds to a vast power that ultimately created everything*... the yokel just wants us to believe that there might be other living beings elsewhere in the universe more advanced than us.

*oh and while you're at it:
give up your forskin
sex is dirty
gays are a threat to mankind
radical female circumcision
condoms are forbidden
AIDS is God's wrath
creationisim is the law
kill the unbelievers!

Actually, the tithe, or 10% sacrifice being money, livestock or food is to be used by the religious leaders to care for the sick and infirm in the town, not to line their pockets.

Thus, if you want, give to a reputable charity, it is the same thing, take it off your taxes, big deal.

It was written that what you give will return to you 100 fold.

If you give away cash, food, or household items that can be tax deductible, you are being rewarded, maybe not in the way the early church preached, but does it matter?

Mars, compare the bible account of creation to the big bang.

God said, let there be light, and there was.

Some unknown spark started the big bang, which has yet to be discovered.
From that point on, creation followed the same cycle as the growth and development of the Universe, and it was all written before science figured it out.

A few physicists decided to make a copy of the ark of the covenant, for gits and shiggles and discovered that the blasted thing was your basic capacitor.

The sons of Adam took to Wife the daughters of men, who were the daughters of men they are talking about, well we recently discovered that at the time of the birth of civilization, going from hunter gatherer nomads to building cities and farming, it would seem to me that the daughters of man were those females that came from groups a little more primitive.

In a very real way, some of those facts in the bible are verifiable by science. I went to high school with two brothers, twins. One had faith, but questions, the other was an atheist.

William became a priest, and still had questions, he always thought there was more to the bible than what was written.

Pete became an anthropologist / archeologist. Pete also spent most of his time disputing the bible.

I ran into them a little over a week ago, when I attended midnight mass. Both were there, having come home to visit family for the holidays.

I asked Pete why an atheist was in mass.

"I cant be an atheist anymore," was his answer, "because I was asked a question."

It seems William asked Pete who the daughters of man could have possibly have been, around 4000BC. Pete started listing off the possible human species running around then asked William why.

William only wanted to answer a question bugging him for the longest time, "who could the sons of Adam and Eve married?"

Think about it.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: Why I don't participate in Organized Religion. - 1/4/2009 6:25:56 PM

Roselaure

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

"who could the sons of Adam and Eve married?"

Think about it.

If one follows a literal interpretation of scripture they they would have married their sisters. If one follows a less literal interpretation then Adam and Eve were only emblematic of the first man and first woman when actually many people were created at the same time.

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RE: Why I don't participate in Organized Religion. - 1/4/2009 6:43:01 PM

hardbodysub

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I don't disagree in principle with the OP, but most of the "disagreements" in the original post have to do with the New Testament, not the Old Testament, which has been specified as the "one book".

That said, my distaste for organized religion is long-standing. More recently I am inclined to view virtually any religious faith as foolishness from brainwashing.

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RE: Why I don't participate in Organized Religion. - 1/4/2009 6:46:06 PM

hardbodysub

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quote:

A few physicists decided to make a copy of the ark of the covenant, for gits and shiggles and discovered that the blasted thing was your basic capacitor.

I'm curious to know where you got this information about an object that has never been found.

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RE: Why I don't participate in Organized Religion. - 1/4/2009 6:58:18 PM

sharainks

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I thought about starting a thread and calling it "why I do participate in organized religion" but decided against it.

Here are the some of the reasons I do.

To spend a bit of my time around people who see the world through the same set of lenses I do. (not unlike why people attend bdsm get togethers or come here) People just like to have some place they don't have to hide parts of themselves due to the company they are keeping. In many settings it would be just as unpopular to talk about your religion as it would be to talk about your participation in bdsm.

It changes my focus on things to get around a group of people and pray for their needs and realize that no one else has a perfect life either.

In my church the music is modern and upbeat and praises God, whom I happen to care about a lot.

You get to hear other's ideas about their spirituality and why they believe and how those beliefs have an impact of their lives. That adds to your own ideas about your spirituality.

You meet a variety of people who would not be likely to all be together in any other place. If you have a good pastor he reminds you that you need to love each other here if you plan to spend eternity with the people you attend church with on Sunday. Stretching yourself to do that also gives you a different perspective on life.

To me "organized religion" simply means going to a place where there is some kind of plan in place for the service and where people have decided to allow God into their life.

Being Christian, or any other faith, doesn't entitle you to judge, to force your beliefs, on others or to be denigrating to those who don't see things the same way you do.

< Message edited by sharainks -- 1/4/2009 7:00:04 PM >

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RE: Why I don't participate in Organized Religion. - 1/4/2009 7:17:54 PM

corysub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

It is not because I dont believe, I just have this major problem with the simple fact that as far as Christian, Muslim, and Jewish people are concerned there is one book, or in the words of the Prophet Mohammad, "Allah will bless all the children of the book."

That book is the old testament, since the Jewish don't believe the messiah has gotten here once already, the Muslims don't believe Jesus was the son of God, and the Christians cant agree on what the New Testament means.

An Indian once said, "if there is one god, and one book, why do you all (whites) disagree with what it says?"

An interesting point made by a man who had watched his world destroyed and limited by a group of invaders who preached "do unto others as you would yourselves."

I am not sure but I do not believe God meant the golden rule to apply only to whites, or people of the same color of skin.

Then you have one group of people saying that the children of Adam and Eve married each other, when it is made clear incest is a big taboo, and totally disregarding the passage, "and the sons of Adam took to wife the daughters of men.?"

I can really rattle some cages with the next 'implied' point in the new testament, that being that Jesus was married.

Under the law of Moses, to teach in the Synagogue, a man had to be married. Thus, the law of God demanded Jesus to be married, read Leviticus. For Jesus to teach in the Synagogue and not be married would have been blasphemous, and a major sin.

Second, when Lazarus lay in his tomb dead, and Jesus on the way to the tomb called Mary, Lazarus' and Martha's sister to come forth from the house and join him, he was doing what only her husband could do while she was in mourning, command her to leave the home.

Again, read Leviticus.

Jesus' ministry would not have gotten the followers it had if he had blatantly disregarded the law of moses.

Bring those points up to a christian and watch em backpedal and say that Christ was above the law. Well, the problem with that is if he had flaunted the law in that way, he would have been stoned to death.

One book, and no body can agree on what it says.

Thus the question is who is right and who is wrong?

Personally, I feel you have to find your own way to your creator, Pagan, christian or desciple of Holly....

My opinion is that some guy got really bored being surrounded by yes men in heaven, made the universe and gave his creation free will.

After that, at some point he sent junior down to get people straightened out and that went over like, well you know....

What ever makes you happy...However, your point about Jesus must have been married because you had to be married to "preach" in the temple might be reconsidered. I could be wrong, but according to the Gospel of Luke, "when Jesus was twelve years old, his parents took him to Jerusalem for the Passover. As they started to return home, they realized that Jesus was missing. Three days later they found Jesus sitting in the Temple surrounded by religious teachers. He was "listening to them and putting questions; and all who heard him were amazed at his intelligence and the answers he gave." (Luke 2: 47) Even in the time of the Old Testament I don't think boys married at 12.

Your comment "one book and no one can agree with what it says" is not really true somce many people agree with each other on the meaning of the words.. ... We are dealing with the interpretation of humans and I would guess that just about every document has its "pro" or "con", its strict interpretation and more liberal interpretations...hence the variety of Christian sects interpreting the New Testament in myriad ways. Heck, we can't even agree in this country on what the intent was of the "founding fathers" in the words of the Constitution..much less agree on words put down almost 2,000 years ago!

The point is not what YOU get out of religion but what other people derive from being muslim, jew or christian....not to mention Hindu, Bhuddist, or Tao....or just simply love "nature". Good luck on your path.

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