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RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 8:22:24 AM

Bella1965

Posts: 285
Joined: 12/12/2006
From: NYC
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G'morning all:

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
You also repeated the often repeated, bogus claim that police officers are frequently outgunned by criminals. Anyone reading the local papers knows that's not true. Occasionally police officers run into someone with more firepower; but it's not often.

Apparently, you've never seen an evidence locker during a sweep. Or the processing room of a precinct where officers are tagging and bagging the perpetrators' cache of weapons from a violent arrest. I have. You keep on believing whatever little white lies your "local papers" feed you. There would be anarchy and chaos on the streets of NYC if they ever disarmed police officers. I may not always agree with their methods or reasons, but I for one am glad they are around. With their damn guns.

Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...

Bella

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Post #: 21

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 8:30:13 AM

scifi1133

Posts: 8529
Joined: 3/27/2007
From: virginia
Status: offline

The same people trashing the cops are the same people who scrream the loudest when something happens to their stuff.
Not every cop on the street is "bad" or "out to get you".
Trash them all you want without them your screwed.

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Post #: 22

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 8:39:27 AM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wulfgarw

$5 says the whole incident gets swept under the rug. Probably to the tune of 'he had a weapon" or something similar. Courts always cover cops, no matter how far in the wrong they are. This is one of the reasons I have a CCW, carry everywhere I legally can, and quietly go the other way when I see the JackBoot Thugs. The only police officer I have ever trusted retired a couple years back.

And variation30, there already been many instances of people being harrassed, arrested and physically harmed for filming police, anything from a ordinary traffic stop to a felony no-knock warrants (don't get me started on those... the no knock warrants that is) Don't give them the idea of putting anti-filming laws into code (they'll call it anti counter surveillance and make it punishable under the Patriot Act) and letting JBT's run amok.

Which actually begs the question... has there ever been a incidence of vindicated self-defence against a Law Enforcement Officer (LEO)?

Not to my knowledge.

Twice now and recently, cops from P.G. County, Md. have shot and killed two different 'suspects' one was even chased (out of his jurisdiction) from MD. to Va. without any provocation. Both cops have now been acquitted. (they were not captured on film)

Demonstrators have been rousted and arrested all over this country ALL...without charges or in many cases a single word out of law enforcement. In D.C. during an international trade conference...2-3000 demonstrators were arbitrarily arrested and jailed. A federal lawsuit judged police actions to be unwarranted, without any provocation and without Miranda rights, all charges were expunged but the police were never disicplined.

That means all of this will continue to happen.

Capitalism IS fascism...it just takes a while for it to sink in.

We progress ever so slowly down the natural slippery slope to a fascist police state. Get ready kinkroids...tell your children all about it so they can slow it down as much as possible.

(in reply to wulfgarw)

Post #: 23

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 8:42:42 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

I don't hate the cops: it would be stupid to hate a group of people. I just don't trust them. It's my default mode when it comes to the police. In England, I find the police easier to trust because, at least, they are not routinely armed over there. Incredible, isn't it? Yet, it works.

It's their role that is questionable. This thread alone demonstrates how much confusion reigns over the police's responsibilities and duties: many people still seem to believe the police are there to protect them when, clearly, they are not.

I also question the recruitement of police officers: much more screening and vetting should be done of candidates who are postulating for such positions of power over their fellow citizens.

I don't see why asking these questions equates 'hating' the police.

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Post #: 24

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 8:48:31 AM

scifi1133

Posts: 8529
Joined: 3/27/2007
From: virginia
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You have no idea then how long it takes for most of these guys to get hired and go through the process. And england has one of the lowest gun crime stats in the world so yes your cops don't routinely carry guns. That being said if you will take a good look more and more of them are.......gasp......for their own protection.
While I was not speaking to you directly about the hate thing it is a standard issue on these boards to do the " I hate all cops and I wish they would all die" speach.
I was commenting on those types of comments. Not on your Im scared of them comment.

_____________________________

I'm the happy fascist slut.
awwwwwww yeeeeeeeeah
And I see your schwartz is as big as mine.
My heart 10-01-72 / 10-16-09

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 25

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 8:48:42 AM

SubmissiveUKMale

Posts: 1
Joined: 12/14/2008
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The Police in England are NOT trustworthy. My experience of the UK Police are far from trustworthy and most are corrupt.

If you are the victim of a crime here, whether it be a theft or assault or another form of harrasment the Police will do fuck all unless you are female or of an ethnic background.

It makes me ashamed to be British when I see what this country has come to!

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 26

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 8:49:19 AM

beargonewild

Posts: 22716
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

~FR~

Kinda think many lost sight of the fact that us ordinary citizens are the ones who want the protection of law when our rights are being violated and this also includes personal safety. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to to realize that news media will alter the truth to sensationalize a news report. The news media never related the circumstances that led to the shooting.

Many say they don't trust the police, if that's the case, who do you suggest is able to do a better job?

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Post #: 27

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 8:53:34 AM

colouredin

Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SubmissiveUKMale

The Police in England are NOT trustworthy. My experience of the UK Police are far from trustworthy and most are corrupt.

If you are the victim of a crime here, whether it be a theft or assault or another form of harrasment the Police will do fuck all unless you are female or of an ethnic background.

It makes me ashamed to be British when I see what this country has come to!

Ahh well Im a woman so maybe that explains it but I think that we have some wonderful people working in the police (I am especially fond of the cso's they totally rock) I trust the police in general to be honest, and your assessment of 'most' is strange, I know many police officers and none would fit your view.

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Post #: 28

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 8:55:36 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

Same here, scifi: my comments weren't addressed to you personally. I blame the 'fast reply' for the confusion

.

And... SubmissiveUK: give me an unarmed cop over an armed one anyday. It's a question of personal comfort for me :-) .

_____________________________

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Post #: 29

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 8:57:44 AM

slaveboyforyou

Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline

quote:

Apparently, you've never seen an evidence locker during a sweep. Or the processing room of a precinct where officers are tagging and bagging the perpetrators' cache of weapons from a violent arrest. I have. You keep on believing whatever little white lies your "local papers" feed you. There would be anarchy and chaos on the streets of NYC if they ever disarmed police officers. I may not always agree with their methods or reasons, but I for one am glad they are around. With their damn guns.

I've seen the evidence lockers of police stations; they're generally filled up with old, rusted long guns and handguns. A few civilian versions of military style rifles, but nothing serious. I've also seen police raid houses and take out assorted weapons. It's usually a drug house, and those weapons were kept to ward off competitors, not the police. Generally these are weapons that are avaliable to the general public legally. How exactly are the police outgunned in these situations? It's not a patrolman conducting these raids; it's SWAT teams.

For the third time, I am not advocating that police be disarmed. I'm just saying that it is a myth that police are being outgunned by criminals. It's simply not true. When you see some police chief or mayor holding up rusty old civilian versions of AK-47's or some TEK-9 with the serial numbers filed off, you are not seeing weapons that are superior to what the police have. If you believe that, you don't know anything about firearms.

(in reply to Bella1965)

Post #: 30

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 10:15:11 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

I’ll estimate there are near ¾ of a million police officers in the United States. On the whole they are well trained and unappreciated…until you need them.

You are bound to have a few incompetents…which that officer was… We should be forever vigilant to weed them out.

But it is overreacting to condemn them all for the actions of a few.

PS… in my town there have been three police officers killed on the job in the last three years…all murdered without their weapons pulled. It is a tough job performed day in and day out by good men and women under constant pressure…I’m glad they do it.
Butch

(in reply to Lynnxz)

Post #: 31

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 10:43:07 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

This is an amazing thread!!!!
Haven't seen the video but will concede that it is as advertised.
One cop messed up period.
Put half a million (minimum) people in a high stress job and someone is going to mess up, maybe on purpose.
Machine guns owned by drug dealers aren't intended for the police just the competetion? So when the police ID themselves the drug dealers will put away the machine guns and use their single shot 22s so it will be fair??   RIGHT!!!!
Cops don't normally carry machine guns and most departments untill recently forbade them to have rifles. Here out city cops can't have rifles in their cars but the Sheriff's deputies can.
We had a good example of a cop geting away with murder recently in Selma (Alabama).
20 witnesses saw the cop gun down a 17 year old who was just runing away from a domestic despute he hadn't even been involved in.
Cop claimed the kid had taken his service weapon and tried to kill him.
Corener said that the kid was shot at close range.
He said the kid was shot in the front (hard to do if he is running away)
He said the kid was shot from the ground like he was standing over the cop.
He said the kid was shot with the cops backup weapon.
He said everything he needed to to clear the cop.
Then the video came out.
It showed the kid grab the cops gun (clearly not the more expensive secure holsters) knock the cop down and try to shoot him (fortunatly the cop was in violation of most departmental rules and didn't have one in the chamber). While the kid was working the slide the cop pulled his backup and shot him.
Result two weeks later there was a march by concered citizens demanding the chief be fired and the cop tried for murder.
I am sure the person who started this thread would have been proud to participate.
'

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 32

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 10:54:47 AM

MissMorrigan

Posts: 2309
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

I have watched the clip a couple of times and in no way is it clear what actually occurred, the actions are ambiguous and I reserve judgement until I receive all of the facts, it was even stated by the deceased's family's attorney that as yet none of the video clips how the incident DIRECTLY so until the many questions are answered by the police officers involved and those in the direct line of vision of the incident, we are in no position to make such spurious accusations.

It seems the presumption of innocence is not extended to the police force.

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Post #: 33

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 10:59:19 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

Hi, MissM - it's lovely to see you posting again :-) .

Regarding this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan
It seems the presumption of innocence is not extended to the police force.

I will be cynical and say that, unfortunately, what goes around comes around.

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Post #: 34

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 11:04:59 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

Not every cop on the street is "bad" or "out to get you

This is true. The vast majority are just useless.

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Post #: 35

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 11:15:53 AM

MissMorrigan

Posts: 2309
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

Hi KittinSol, it's lovely to see you too. I've missed you guys.

In response to your latter comment though, while I accept and have seen plenty of evidence indicating a corrupt minority in police forces, I have yet to see evidence that the minority needs a status upgrade and until the police officer that shot the guy in the video is convicted of acting in direct contravention of his ethics and duties as an officer of the law, I will not be a participant in a kangaroo court.

We should debate the issue of armed officers as I feel that's a topic all on its own - for another thread.

_____________________________

The Tooth Fairy who teaches kids to sell body parts for money.

A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

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Post #: 36

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 11:48:09 AM

ArizonaSunSwitch

Posts: 205
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Coldwarrior57

How long do you think it'll be before there is a law against filming cops.

I've always said that if there is any group of individuals who should be denied the ability to own and carry firearms it is our...officers of the law. most people think I am kidding when I say this, but I am quite serious.

I'm curious how many people here support having one agency with a monopoly on dispute resolution and the use of force. imagine it like this, you and five other people are stranded on a desert island. would you ever suggest that you give all of the weapons and the ability to justly use those weapons to one individual? would you also make that individual the final arbiter of all disputes (including disputes involving that officer of the law)? if you think the rampant abuses visited upon the citizenry by those who claim to protect it are evidence enough that this system is flawed, what would you propose as an alternative?

What a LOAD of CACA!

MURDERED? He was struggling against the police, THIS was in OAKLAND Ca, NOT backwater bama.

Take firearms away from police !
And you better check this little document called the Constitution, you cannot DENY any one their RIGHTS !
Good Lord!

Since when did the Constitution cease being a piece of used toilet paper ? Trust me, I agree with your sentiment, but this is a useless argument.

(in reply to Coldwarrior57)

Post #: 37

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 12:17:11 PM

ArizonaSunSwitch

Posts: 205
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wulfgarw

Capitalism IS fascism...it just takes a while for it to sink in.

Capitalism is the marketplace that naturally arises when there is an absence of government coercion. This country ceased being capitalist before anyone currently living was born.

If a government were to, hypothetically, direct industry on what to produce then tax them progressively it would be a fascist government. Fascism, Socialism, Communism are all leftist ideologies despite whatever propaganda your high-school or college professors may have fed you. Let me guess, you voted for Obama and the rest of the liberal crew ? So you bitch about fascism yet vote for it.

I must have some kind of genetic defect, if I tried to embrace that level of internal double talk blood would pour from my ears.

This post is off-topic but i'm tired of letting this kind of galactic ignorance pass uncommented.

(in reply to MrRodgers)

Post #: 38

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 12:20:07 PM

ArizonaSunSwitch

Posts: 205
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wulfgarw

$5 says the whole incident gets swept under the rug. Probably to the tune of 'he had a weapon" or something similar. Courts always cover cops, no matter how far in the wrong they are. This is one of the reasons I have a CCW, carry everywhere I legally can, and quietly go the other way when I see the JackBoot Thugs. The only police officer I have ever trusted retired a couple years back.

And variation30, there already been many instances of people being harrassed, arrested and physically harmed for filming police, anything from a ordinary traffic stop to a felony no-knock warrants (don't get me started on those... the no knock warrants that is) Don't give them the idea of putting anti-filming laws into code (they'll call it anti counter surveillance and make it punishable under the Patriot Act) and letting JBT's run amok.

Which actually begs the question... has there ever been a incidence of vindicated self-defence against a Law Enforcement Officer (LEO)?

Yeah, swept under the rug, as in the moment any shred of exculpatory evidence arises the media will lose interest. Mad dog foaming at the mouth police killers sell papers, police defending themselves in the course of their job don't.

(in reply to wulfgarw)

Post #: 39

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 12:27:43 PM

wulfgarw

Posts: 752
Joined: 3/18/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I don't hate the cops: it would be stupid to hate a group of people. I just don't trust them. It's my default mode when it comes to the police.

*snip*

It's their role that is questionable. This thread alone demonstrates how much confusion reigns over the police's responsibilities and duties: many people still seem to believe the police are there to protect them when, clearly, they are not.

I quite agree. I don't hate cops, I don't trust them.

As a truck driver, I regularly deal with state patrol, local cops, and DOT officers. All of them I have ever dealt with, have an elitist "I'm better than you and I am above the law" superinflated ego, whether I have done something wrong or not. And hence, the basis of my distrust is founded.

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Post #: 40

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