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RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 12:38:40 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
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quote:

On the whole they are well trained and unappreciated

On the whole they are barely trained, and don't get half the scorn and disrespect they deserve.

As the saying goes, when seconds count, the police are minutes away. They show up just in time to perform the body count and file a report. Handy when it comes time to file the life insurance claim, but not much good otherwise.

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Post #: 41

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 12:55:36 PM

blacksword404

Posts: 2068
Joined: 1/4/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

Many say they don't trust the police, if that's the case, who do you suggest is able to do a better job?

Well the time may come in the future where the police are inadequate (they already are sometimes) and will be replaced by maybe Blackwater or another like group. They used them in Katrina. They hold an allegiance to whoever pays them. I don't see this as likely but possible. We already know Obama has ideas for Brown shirts of his own. He might settle for Blackwater instead.

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Post #: 42

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 1:04:41 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
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quote:

Many say they don't trust the police, if that's the case, who do you suggest is able to do a better job?

My recommendation would be Nobody. If I only have to worry about robbers and gang bangers, I'm ok--polite folk won't mind me shooting back at those. They are far less of a threat than the thugs who pack badges along with their guns.

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Post #: 43

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 1:14:46 PM

beargonewild

Posts: 22716
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

Many say they don't trust the police, if that's the case, who do you suggest is able to do a better job?

Well the time may come in the future where the police are inadequate (they already are sometimes) and will be replaced by maybe Blackwater or another like group. They used them in Katrina. They hold an allegiance to whoever pays them. I don't see this as likely but possible. We already know Obama has ideas for Brown shirts of his own. He might settle for Blackwater instead.

I agree that could be a future possibility. So projecting that scenario and in the futuristic society where said group is paid to enforce the laws, who will be protecting the population from the protectors? Yet looking back to an era when most of this country was mostly frontier, quite often the local sheriff was a hired gun paid by the local officials to protect the citizens, or what is affectionately known as the wild wild west.

Though if you look at your concept from another angle, we citizens do indirectly hire and pay people to enforce the laws and "to serve and protect." We are the ones who elect the municipal, provincial/state officials who then in turn hire the law enforcement which their salaries come from our tax dollars. (yea I do realize that this just the basic concept and not how it works in reality)

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Post #: 44

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 1:21:35 PM

slutslave4u

Posts: 217
Joined: 6/14/2004
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celticlord2112......As an ex-cop of many years, would not do us any good to get together to talk, as I see your views on the subject......I can get along very well with anyone, but what I see you saying here.....well, let's just say that I will be more of a man and reserve my comments....as I know they will not be appreciated, and know that I am a better man for keeping them to myself. You are a man that is in need of help!....and surprisingly, one day it just may be a cop that comes to you and offers that help too!

I sit here as an ex-cop, both military and civilian, of near 20 years, and have read just a few of the posts here, and what I am seeing disgusts me.

I will say that yes the video was troublesome to see, and yes there are at times incidents that unfortunately do and will happen, face it folks the world is not a perfect place, never has been, and never will be. Yes there are some bad apples out there that have sworn to serve and to protect. But to bad mouth and bash all that do so on a daily basis, some of you need to grow up and get a life. You sit where you are, some making very good money, while an officer can and I personally knew of some that were collecting food stamps while on the job just to survive and put food on their table to feed their children because of the LOW pay they get for what they do every day so you can be in a better place and make what you make, so you can sleep in peace and in safety at night, knowing they are out there protecting you and yours EVEN thought they dont even know who you are.

You want to bash someone, bash the corrupt ones, but instead you bash them all? What kind of world are you living in? What fantasy life are you in that the rest of society is clueless on? Cops on the street have never been up to date, with weaponry against the criminal out on the street. Departments do try, however it is a neverending thing. As for police not being able to hit what they do aim at, well as for this ex-cop, we trained often, and even in our off time...Want to see what I can hit? Officers spend more time in classes and training than you could ever imagine. Still yes, you will find and see an occassional corrupt one out there. Keeping in mind also in any given situation it is easy to sit and judge what an officer did out on the street, but keep in mind in the midst of things, that officer had maybe 2 seconds to make that decision, while you have a lifetime to judge whether he/she did right or wrong in it. A cop once hired on the job is next to useless for the first 1 1/2 to 2 years due to all the classes and training that they must go through. Effectively they are not good out on the street up to about 1 1/2 to 2 years, and still not have the experience that goes with all the training that has been thrown at them in that time. The officer that did this shooting, I believe they did say yes he was a rooky of 2 years, not enought time out there to gain any amount of real experience after all his training before he was put out there to begin with. I started civilian police in 1984, and that first year found myself being shot at for what? Because someone did not want to go to jail for their drugs? and for what, $12k a year, and IF I had a bullet proof vest, I HAD TO PAY FOR IT MYSELF. To protect you, those that rant and rave and bash those that are out there EVERY single day to try to make this world a better place for you to coninue making your money and having your families safe and secure? Those that want to bash the police, do so under the very protection that they provide for you every day, so you can rant and rave even.

Those here that bash ALL cops here, take a good hard look, someday you just may need them, and even though you bash them, they will come running anyway. To proctect you so you can bash them another day. You will need them some day....and tell me, when that day comes, will you still continue to bash them then?

Not all are bad apples, yes a few out there make it seem as so....but look at the number of EXTREMELY GOOD cops out there all across this country, then see the FEW bad ones out there.............me, yes I was a cop for a number of years, I'LL TAKE MY CHANCES WITH THEM, AND THANK THEM FOR WHAT THEY CONTINUE TO DO....do i still have guns, yes I do, will I use them IF I need to, yes I will......take them away from me? COME TRY!

< Message edited by slutslave4u -- 1/7/2009 2:17:25 PM >

(in reply to Lynnxz)

Post #: 45

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 1:38:23 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

You want to bash someone, bash the corrupt ones, but instead you bash them all?

Corrupt cop is redundant. If a person carries a badge, he is corrupt. I bash them, sneer at them, scorn them--each and every one of them.

Do I need them? No.

Do I want them? No.

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Post #: 46

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 3:17:21 PM

variation30

Posts: 1190
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

However, you propose taking weapons away from law enforcement. Uh Huh...and...who is going to protect people on the streets, in their homes, schools, banks, shopping malls, and on and on...from criminals who, in many cased are better armed that the cop on the beat? I guess you have never been on a NYC subway at 1:00 A.M going home from a night out and breathing that sigh of relief seeing two cops in the car you just entered. It's not a nice warm fuzzy world out there...there are people who kill for you sneakers..for your jacket,or because you wore a T shirt with a message they disagreed with...aside from the really serious criminals peddling drugs.

well we've come unto a few important point. the phrase 'when seconds count, the police are minutes away' may be trite, but it is true. I am not suggesting the world is a warm fuzzy place. perhaps that is why I have a colt cobra and super shorty. ultimately I am the one responsible for my own protection. I am well aware that there are people who would kill me for my loafers or my topcoat. hopefully I'd be able to prevent it.

your subway example leads to an interesting topic, why is security so lax? is security an issue at The Venitian or Trump Towers? perhaps there is simply not the same incentive for the mta to to protect its clients as there are for purely private corporations to protect their clients...

and maybe certain restrictions on carrying the means to protect outselves only worsens the problem.

quote:

Innocent people have been killed by out of control law enforcement officers with clubs in a cave 4,000 years ago and in the streets of NYC. According to the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund (NLEOMF) and 140 police officers have died in the line of duty in the United States in 2008 and 181 in 2007. I now live in the suburbs of Philly and it's almost like open season on cops here. Somehow, I don't remember the dozens of blogs
attacking the ruthless killers of these men and women who protect us with their lives in a work place often as dangerous as Iraq...but so many about the unfair treatment of criminals.

perhaps this is because everyone knows that murders are...well....murderers. it is common knowledge that they are not above the law and their actions are unjust. most people do not, however, realize that...officers of the law are not above the law. if I were to subdue someone against his will after he got into a fight with a thrid party, wrestle him to the ground with my friend, and then shoot him because I thought he was squirming, would I ever, ever, ever, have anyone defend me? no. yet there are undoubtedly going to be some people who side with this officer. maybe that's why you see so many blogs about the problems with the police.

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Post #: 47

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 3:31:16 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

.
However, you propose taking weapons away from law enforcement. Uh Huh...and...who is going to protect people on the streets, in their homes, schools, banks, shopping malls, and on and on...from criminals who, in many cased are better armed that the cop on the beat?

Newsflash, Cory - it is NOT the job of the police to Protect Citizenry From Crime. There was a Very recent thread on this particular subject where it was pointed out (again, as it's been done several times in the past) that the cops' actual job is to file a friggin report after the fact - and maybe, if they're lucky and actually on the ball for a change, catch the alleged perp.

Get out of your head any idea that the cops are here to "protect" us. Get out of your head any idea that the cops are here to "serve" us. They're not. They're around to be official bully boys, minor (and usually rather unctious) officials, and to help the statisticians keep records.

Does not catching"the alleged perp ,in fact "prevent" future crimes.Therefore fufilling the mandate to "protect and serve"the community.Having grown up in NYC the idea of removing or disarming Law Enforcement strikes me as societal suicide.Seems ironic that this suggestion comes to us from a staunch defender of the right to bear.Apperently the 2nd ammendment does not apply if you wear a uniform,interesting to say the least.

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Post #: 48

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 3:35:55 PM

lronitulstahp

Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
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quote:

MURDERED? He was struggling against the police, THIS was in OAKLAND Ca, NOT backwater bama.

Does a life in Oakland CA count less than one in Backwater Bama???

Mind specifying WHY????

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Post #: 49

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 3:37:47 PM

variation30

Posts: 1190
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

While I don't agree with the OP's argument, please spare me the 'police officers are street warriors holding back the barbarians' macho nonsense. Police officers enforce laws and investigate crimes; that's their main duty. For the most part, they show up after the crime has been committed. You're responsible for your own safety

a cop's job is not to protect us, it is to enforce laws. some of the crimes they file reports (ipso facto) for are real crimes, but most are simply edictal. sometimes the catch the criminal. sometimes they don't. sometimes they arrest innocents. sometimes innocents are convicted. whatever the case may be, it's a horribly inefficent system. and the illusion that the police are here to serve and protect us is disappearing quickly.

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all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

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Post #: 50

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 3:38:00 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

Forgive my ignorance, but these regional allusions elude me: where is Backwater Bama?

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Post #: 51

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 3:40:58 PM

variation30

Posts: 1190
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

Perspective please people. Take guns away from police? Are you kidding? I'll take my chances with the cops (even stupid ones) over the gang bangers and thugs any day.

to be honest, I don't think there's a difference between gang bangers and police.

other than the fact that I can shoot gang bangers in defense and not risk the death penalty.

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all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

or old.

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Post #: 52

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 3:42:18 PM

slaveboyforyou

Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline

rural Alabama, kittin.

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Post #: 53

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 3:44:00 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

Thank you, slaveboy - although now, I'm even more confused

.

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Post #: 54

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 3:44:23 PM

lronitulstahp

Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Forgive my ignorance, but these regional allusions elude me: where is Backwater Bama?

It means not U-R-B-A-N...and urban takes on even more non-specific (alluded) connotations .

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Truth is, everybody is going to hurt you; you just gotta find the ones worth suffering for." -Bob Marley

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Post #: 55

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 3:45:46 PM

variation30

Posts: 1190
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wulfgarw

$5 says the whole incident gets swept under the rug. Probably to the tune of 'he had a weapon" or something similar.

a friend of mine made a joke when he saw this video...well...not really a joke, it was more or less an observation. after the cop murdered that man, the other cops' reactions were priceless. it looked as if they were looking around to see if they could find any crack to sprinkle on the body.

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all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

or old.

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Post #: 56

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 3:51:04 PM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

Cops can be petty, sneering, loathsome individuals. And with the power they have, what can you do but sit there and take it, most of the time...

Case in point: I am currently being harassed by the Idaho State Police of late. It's a long story but I'll make it as short as I can...

The middle of summer two years ago there was a series of horrible wrecks on the interstate that blocked traffic for hours. My car didn't have air conditioning, and it was between 105 and 110 degrees out there in the sun, and after about two hours of misery I was finally able to take an off ramp and go around the accident. I phoned ahead to Pizza hut, then picked up a pizza for dinner because I was already going to be late and my UM was to be home alone and hungry by the time I got there.

Anyway, I took the side roads around the accident, picked up my dinner and got back on the freeway just in time to have to stop again because of another really bad accident further up - and the traffic report on the radio said I would be there for hours more! So I looked, and there was nothing coming from the other direction on the other side of the freeway for miles. Not a car, not a truck - nothing. And the median was clear, no problems there. So I whipped my car around, and I headed back up to where I had just got on, less than a mile back. I was gonna get my ass home!

No, not so fast. A state cop that was in traffic behind me turned his lights on and pulled me over, and ticketed me for crossing a divided highway, which is a misdemeanor. I explained it to him, what my situation was and he didn't care, said tell it to the judge. Can't have people breaking the law like that.

So I told it to the judge, who turned out to be a hanging judge. What an asshole this judge was, too. I was the very last one to be heard, and every case before mine was guilty, guilty, guilty. They could have had an automaton doing what that guy did!

I presented my case anyway, and I thought I did a pretty good job - after which I was found guilty. So naturally I became somewhat contemptuous, and I asked the judge what he thought a person was supposed to do if a traffic light never changed, and the judge said "Wait until a cop comes and tells you that you can go."

Oh man, I started arguing... because what kind of horse shit is that? And that poor stupid judge was red faced and shaking, and he was threatening me with throwing me in jail for contempt of court before it was over while I was laughing at how stupid he was. That judge look like an absolute moron in front of the remaining gallery, which consisted of about five or six city, county and state police who had been basically sitting there eating donuts and watching the show, but who were by that point staring at me angrily with their mouths wide open and with their hands on their handcuffs and their billy clubs.

I barely made it out of there with just my fine... but I was laughing pretty good about how shook up that judge was. I noticed that there were three goons in suits with earpieces and sidearms hanging around outside the courtroom when I exited too, making it obvious that someone had pushed a "security" button in there at some point.

A little while after that though, someone burnt that state cop's cruiser right in front of his residence, in the dead of the night...

You think it's a coincidence that I've been pulled over several times by the state since then, for extremely minor things? Prior to this I hadn't been pulled over but maybe twice in twenty years. Last time was just two days ago, and he claimed I hadn't used my turn signal for the full five seconds as required by law. Before that he said the month / year sticker wasn't in quite the right place on my license plate.

Bullshit.. what utter bullshit. Sometimes they don't deserve any respect, and I have to wonder what the full story is when one of them gets shot, or when they kill someone. They reduce themselves to highway robbers, essentially. Thugs with badges and guns...

There are good cops out there, sure. But the asswipes among them tend to make them all look rotten, and with their power one could even say tyrannical and threatening.

Playground bullies, with the teacher's backing.

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Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 57

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 3:59:10 PM

lronitulstahp

Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
Status: offline

quote:

We already know Obama has ideas for Brown shirts of his own. He might settle for Blackwater instead.

First i'm hearing of it....Any sound proof...like not from a blog, or The Onion? i would be intersted to see it.

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Truth is, everybody is going to hurt you; you just gotta find the ones worth suffering for." -Bob Marley

(in reply to blacksword404)

Post #: 58

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 4:00:57 PM

variation30

Posts: 1190
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

In the real world, unfortunately, most of us live in areas where there would be absolute chaos and vigilantism were it not for well trained law enforcement.

I doubt it. would you turn into a lawless vigilante without law enforcement?

target practice frequently.In fact, I think it's compulsury.

I'm not talking about their ability to hit a target...I"m talking about their ability to hit innocent targets with relative invulnerability.

quote:

And no one addresses the other not insignificant issue in this theortical excercise...what happens to the weapons in the hands of thugs?

I'm suggesting that they already are.

quote:

Are they going to be legislated away too and turned in to authorities? Sure! Ah, the sweetness of innocence....such a precious attribute in children...so ludicrous in adults.

when did I suggest that this would be the case? all I am saying is that if we are to have a group of individuals that are above the law (e.g. they can bust into your house with a 'no knock warrant'), let's not arm them.

quote:

Why do you think it was called the "wild west"

um...because it is a fictional movie setting fabricated by hollywood that did not really represent how the west was?

_____________________________

all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

or old.

(in reply to corysub)

Post #: 59

RE: Policeman Murders Citizen. (anyone surprised?) - 1/7/2009 5:22:44 PM

UncleNasty

Posts: 1108
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline

Courts have repeatedly ruled it is not the job of police to protect citizens. I just posted an article from 1992 on this very topic that had a number of case citations.

Do the courts tend to "protect their own" or "cover for the cops?" It seems they frequently do.

Which brings up another issue - corruption in the courts and perversion of justice. Of course once corrupt or perverted in the slightest way the entire "institution" and system becomes suspect. In my opinion our court system is worse than useless.

Directly to the OPs point I agree that having only one body with use of force type authority is a bad idea.

What to do in its place? Doubtful we can get rid of the one in favor of any other. The one is probably too entrenched and the masses too afraid and disorganized to do anything effective.

Among the biggest issues I see are a lack of involvement of the citizenry in any meaningful way in terms of review and oversight. Without an impartial panel of objective constituents reviewing the actions of police forces their is little way to hold them accountable.

Accountability goes double for our court systems. Their is practically zero accountability for judges. Judicial immunity is, in all praticality, pretty much complete. Lacking accountability they can and do rule any way they choose, whether in accordance with the law or not. Even when charges of judicial misconduct are brought (which is extremely rare as attorneys are loathe to hold a judges feet to the fire) the group that oversees such matters is generally made up of attorneys and former judges. In other words they went to school together, were in the same fraternities, play golf together, their kids are in the same schools. They probably swap wives and have homosexual relations, LOL.

Attorney malpractice is another rarely pursued charge. Again, attorneys that have ties with each other going back years are loathe to pursue each other for misdeeds.

As is typical for me these days I'll tie this back to the economic mess, and the issue most consider the cause of it - the mortgage meltdown. If the courts had consistently ruled in accordance with the law the numbers and rates of foreclosures would be extremely and drastically lower. Defective pleadings, defective paperwork, fraud in origination, TILA, HOEPA, RESPA violations out the wazoo, etc. The courts have turned a blind eye to the numerous violations, crimes and unethical behavior on the part of Plaintiffs in foreclosure cases.

Uncle Nasty (where is the duct tape?)

(in reply to MichiganHeadmast)

Post #: 60

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