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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/17/2009 5:28:03 PM   
ArticMaestro


Posts: 178
Joined: 12/8/2008
Status: offline 		Kained, So you are now complaining that Isreal is stopping shooting....Your posts simply drip objectivity.   Do note that up the screen, you say that Isreal remaining in Gaza after the Cease fire has begun is reasonable, now it is a deal breaker.

Politesub, unfortunatly the "leaders" of the Palestinian people do not agree. 

Who wants to place bets that Hamas actually stops shooting?

< Message edited by ArticMaestro -- 1/17/2009 5:29:00 PM >

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 241
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/17/2009 5:39:35 PM   
KaineD


Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline 		No no no, they need to pull their troops out within the first week.

You seem to think you know better than
Saeb Erakat, the chief Palestinian negotiator involved in diplomatic talks on the conflict, noted that Olmert did not say Israeli troops would be leaving Gaza.

"I'm afraid this means the cease-fire will not stand; it will break," Erakat told CNN International. "Anybody can fire a shot now. ... It's a very fragile moment."

You're not very objective if you can just brush that view aside.

(in reply to ArticMaestro)
Profile   Post #: 242
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/18/2009 1:53:06 AM   
ArticMaestro


Posts: 178
Joined: 12/8/2008
Status: offline 		If Hamas wants to keep fighting its thier choice.  If a lone gunman fires, the Isrealis will fire back, it will then be up to Hamas to decide to resume full out war.  Or to arrest the gunman for violating the law.  Even in Gaza you are not allowed to just shoot at someone. 

The shooting can stop and the civillains can be cared for.  Its up to Hamas.  If the civilians need to suffer untill Isreal is no more, then they will suffer for a long damn time.  It's up to them.

Be real, It doesn't matter if it's a week or 3 years, of course Hamas won't hold fire for a week.  They have been shooting during the 3 hour lulls. 

But apperantly, your objective nuetral self doesn't think they should stop and let effective international monitors get in there and prevent any more fighting, preventing any more dead civilians....

But what you and everyone needs to realise is there is a new paradigm.....

Jews shoot back.

< Message edited by ArticMaestro -- 1/18/2009 1:56:47 AM >

(in reply to KaineD)
Profile   Post #: 243
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/18/2009 3:59:18 AM   
KaineD


Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline 		People in support of Israel have just about lost their damn minds.

Get some perspective.

14 Israelis have died.  10 of whom are soldiers.

You can't coldly lay the blame of the high death count at the feet of Hamas.  How easily the Israeli government think they can shirk their responsibility for so many civilian deaths is disturbing, and the fact that people in the west can do so too is also beyond frightening.

I'm going to post a picture of horrible mutilation.  It really is very nasty, just to warn you.  You can say "I could post pictures of death from the Israeli side", but not of the same scale as what has happened to the Palestinians.  Not even close.  Israel have done things in this conflict that are unjustifiable.  Just because they are fighting eeeeeeeeeeevil terrorists (who have killed 14 people, 10 of whom are soldiers) doesn't excuse the response.

This picture is not safe for work.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_rl0N1IJv-p8/SWv8D-CLGcI/AAAAAAAAEKs/VuD8p4HGe9E/s1600-h/006+see+Israel+what+you+done+to+a+Palestinian+child.jpg

So.... was it worth it?

(in reply to ArticMaestro)
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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/18/2009 7:24:46 AM   
JustDarkness


Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

People in support of Israel have just about lost their damn minds.


quote:

Get some perspective.


that doesn't sound so well together..

and btw...Hamaz said they won..so ..what about perspective... lol

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 1/18/2009 7:27:24 AM >

(in reply to KaineD)
Profile   Post #: 245
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/18/2009 7:48:14 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

People in support of Israel have just about lost their damn minds.

Get some perspective.

14 Israelis have died.  10 of whom are soldiers.

You can't coldly lay the blame of the high death count at the feet of Hamas.  How easily the Israeli government think they can shirk their responsibility for so many civilian deaths is disturbing, and the fact that people in the west can do so too is also beyond frightening.

Irael has the right of self defense.  Once the first rocket was fired by Hamas into Israel, there is no "tit-for-tat" requirement (oh, that rocket killed 2 Israelis .... let's get a sniper in the local Arab market to kill two Hamas members.  We wanna be proportional in our response, ya know ....).

The Israel government is responsible for taking action to protect it citizens.  They are allowed to take any action to make them safe.  Hamas is the one responsible for the uneven causalities:  It was too incompetent to kill enough Israelis' to make a difference, and was too incompetent to protect it citizens from the consequences of its' own actions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

I'm going to post a picture of horrible mutilation.  It really is very nasty, just to warn you.  You can say "I could post pictures of death from the Israeli side", but not of the same scale as what has happened to the Palestinians.  Not even close.  Israel have done things in this conflict that are unjustifiable.  Just because they are fighting eeeeeeeeeeevil terrorists (who have killed 14 people, 10 of whom are soldiers) doesn't excuse the response.

This picture is not safe for work.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_rl0N1IJv-p8/SWv8D-CLGcI/AAAAAAAAEKs/VuD8p4HGe9E/s1600-h/006+see+Israel+what+you+done+to+a+Palestinian+child.jpg

So.... was it worth it?


More propaganda.  An emotional attack, rather than a "logical" attack.

You are still a mouthpiece for Hamas.

The "scale" isn't important.  The important question for Israel is "Did we kill enough, and of the correct type of Hamas members to stop the attacks on our citizens?".

If the answer turns out to be "no" then more Palestinians will die.

And Israel will be fully justified.

Firm


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(in reply to KaineD)
Profile   Post #: 246
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/18/2009 8:11:43 AM   
KaineD


Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline 		You're still the dude that claimed Hamas were helping the BBC write their articles, so there is nothing you have to say that will be taken seriously.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 247
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/18/2009 8:14:10 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline 		"Take for example, Palestinian reaction to the 2001 Palestinian terror bombing of a Jerusalem Sbarro pizzeria in which 15 Jews, five of whom were two sets of parents and their children, were murdered and an additional 130 people were injured, some permanently maimed.

As reported by the Associated Press, a month later, Palestinian university students opened an exhibition that included a grisly re-enactment of that mass murder. The students built a replica of the Sbarro pizzeria, with fake blood, splattered pizza, a plastic hand dangling from the ceiling, and a fake severed leg wearing jeans and a bloody black sneaker.

The exhibit also includes a large rock in front of a mannequin wearing the black hat, black jacket and black trousers typically worn by fervently-Orthodox Jews. A recording from inside the rock calls out: O believer, there is a Jewish man behind me. Come and kill him, paraphrasing a verse in the Koran. It became a popular tourist attraction for Palestinians, to which Palestinian parents took their little children.
(Taken from an article by Dennis Prager located here: http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0109/prager011309.php3"

_____________________________

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(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 248
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/18/2009 8:27:21 AM   
KaineD


Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Irael has the right of self defense.


Not at any cost.  And the Palestinians have the right to their own state, which the Israelis have denied them for 60 years.

quote:

Once the first rocket was fired by Hamas into Israel,


This conflict didn't begin with Hamas.

quote:

there is no "tit-for-tat" requirement (oh, that rocket killed 2 Israelis .... let's get a sniper in the local Arab market to kill two Hamas members.  We wanna be proportional in our response, ya know ....).


Well, why not?  You're telling me that the highly trained IDF, and the millions of dollars of military hardware, they can't get accurate strikes on Hamas?  And why use phosphorus shells at all?  Still, no one in this thread has been able to justify that one for me.  Of the 1, 300 dead (at least) how many are Hamas?

quote:

The Israel government is responsible for taking action to protect it citizens.  They are allowed to take any action to make them safe.


Not according to international law.  The longer this conflict was going on, the angrier the international world was getting, and Olmert was forced to apologize to the UN for attacking UN targets.

quote:

Hamas is the one responsible for the uneven causalities:  It was too incompetent to kill enough Israelis' to make a difference, and was too incompetent to protect it citizens from the consequences of its' own actions.


Too poverty ridden.  Their rockets are homemade.

quote:

More propaganda.  An emotional attack, rather than a "logical" attack.


Let's face it, logical arguments don't seem to cut it with a lot of people here.  I don't think the emotional impact of what's happened in Gaza should be ignored.  For as sad as the three civilian deaths are on the Israeli side, the humanitarian impact on the Gaza side is many, many times worse.

quote:

The "scale" isn't important.  The important question for Israel is "Did we kill enough, and of the correct type of Hamas members to stop the attacks on our citizens?"


The scale is important.  Of course it is.  14 vs 1, 300 kind of makes any justification for Israel "defending themselves" seem ludicrous.  Who really needs defended?  It's not a war so much as a massacre, a genocide.

Another reason scale is important.  Say 400 of the 1, 300 dead were Hamas members.  Great, that's a lot of dead Hamas.  But crap, for every dead Hamas member, about ten more are going to want to JOIN Hamas to avenge their dead friends and family.  Why don't you realize that?

quote:

If the answer turns out to be "no" then more Palestinians will die.

And Israel will be fully justified.


Genocide isn't justifiable.

The IRA when they were active, killed at least 30 people with just one bomb.  All civilians.

Should the people in London have went absolutely mad, lost their minds, and decide to flatten West Belfast to the ground to get a handful of terrorists?

They say 'Bloody Sunday', the day when British soldiers shot dozens of innocent catholics, was the greatest recruitment drive Britain could have given to the IRA.  How many people can Hamas recruit after the deaths of so many civilians in Gaza?

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 249
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/18/2009 10:52:37 AM   
ArticMaestro


Posts: 178
Joined: 12/8/2008
Status: offline 		So now we can add the unjusitifyable accusation of Genocide to your list.  Gaza hasn't been flattened.  Kained, you are making that up.  The video you posted clearly disproved it.  Unless you are making up your own definition of Genocide to go with your made up definition of Carpet bombing.   

And apperantly some fantasy history also, if you think that Isreal prevented Palestine from becoming a state in 1948.  The place was invaded by Jordan, Egypt, and Syria..With the formal approval of the Arab Leauge.  Armies with the blessing of the Arab Leauge occupyied the place untill 1972.   East Jerusalem was occupied by arab troops, every inch of the West Bank, every inch of Gaza, every inch of the Golan.  Not a single Isreali settlement.  And it was used to launch War to destroy Isreal, a couple of times. 

It has been clearly explained to you, that Phospourus has 2 non weopon uses on the battlefield (illumination and smoke cover).  you have provided no evidence that it was illegally used as a weopon. 

"Say 400 of the 1, 300 dead were Hamas members.  Great, that's a lot of dead Hamas.  But crap, for every dead Hamas member, about ten more are going to want to JOIN Hamas to avenge their dead friends and family.  Why don't you realize that?" 

Because it isn't true, despite what the BBS might have to say about it.

(in reply to KaineD)
Profile   Post #: 250
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/18/2009 12:02:14 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		...not going to quote you HK. Your own words are eloquent enough. However, you present a connection that ought not be made You have fallen into a trap. i've seen you point out to others when they have falen into such a trap. i'm not trying to be mean when i do the same service for you.

The Holocaust is one of those events in human history that must never be forgotten. It is not the only one of its kind. Pol Pot's Year Zero for instance. People still live that wee involved in both events.
These events contine to have their effects.

However, what is done by the State of Israel is a separate issue. To use the Holocaust, in any way, to justify the actions of a political entity that only came to exist after the Holocaust is to take meaning away from it. Such a use of the Holocaust weakens its signifience. Takes away from its power.

i do not forgive a murderer just because their uncle, aunt and all grandparents were murdered. To try to do so does not honour the memory of those murdered people does it?

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 251
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/18/2009 12:08:35 PM   
KaineD


Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro

It has been clearly explained to you, that Phospourus has 2 non weopon uses on the battlefield (illumination and smoke cover).  you have provided no evidence that it was illegally used as a weopon. 



I provided a CNN clip.  Buildings have been hit by white phosphorus shells.

(in reply to ArticMaestro)
Profile   Post #: 252
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/18/2009 12:24:40 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
If it's suspected that there are rockets or any other kind of munitions stored in or near those buildings, or if it's suspected that there are enemy refueling facilities there it is perfectly legal under international law to hit those buildings with WP shells.

And that's what the Israelis are specifically after - Hamas rockets.


quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

I provided a CNN clip.  Buildings have been hit by white phosphorus shells.







< Message edited by Sanity -- 1/18/2009 12:27:16 PM >

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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/18/2009 6:29:52 PM   
ArticMaestro


Posts: 178
Joined: 12/8/2008
Status: offline 		Yes, your CNN clip showed a building on fire with black smoke, after you went on and on about how phosphourus burns white smoke.  The same clip also put to bed your lie that Isreal is carpet bombing Gaza.

So you are not going to adress your lie about who invaded and occupyied Palestine in 48, nor your baseless charge of Genocide. 

Such objectivity.....

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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/19/2009 2:14:05 AM   
MissSepphora1


Posts: 669
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline 		As I predicted, Hamas claimed victory.  I am correct once again.

Despite losses suffered, Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh claimed "a heavenly victory" in remarks broadcast on Al-Jazeera Arabic news channel.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,480606,00.html

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Profile   Post #: 255
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/19/2009 3:46:23 AM   
KaineD


Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro

Yes, your CNN clip showed a building on fire with black smoke, after you went on and on about how phosphourus burns white smoke.  The same clip also put to bed your lie that Isreal is carpet bombing Gaza.

So you are not going to adress your lie about who invaded and occupyied Palestine in 48, nor your baseless charge of Genocide. 

Such objectivity.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUwgmin_muQ&feature=PlayList&p=8A66FAB28BA1BDFF&index=43

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5521925.ece

If you doubt something I claim then you should really learn to do your own research.  Your remarks against me are becoming increasingly inflammatory and I won't be addressing you again.  It seems to me that you are purposefully trying to annoy by confusing the debate when you pretend you think I'm lying.

Try doing your own research in future.

(in reply to ArticMaestro)
Profile   Post #: 256
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/19/2009 11:08:42 AM   
ArticMaestro


Posts: 178
Joined: 12/8/2008
Status: offline 		I fail to see how examaning and asking for clarification per your allegations is confusing the debate.

Say something false on this subject, I will point it out.  Respond or not, it's up to you.  The charge of Genocide is baseless.  The facts of who denied the Palestinian's a state in 48 are facts.

As has been pointed out several times, Phouspourus is legal to use in Gaza, as smoke and cover.  You Times on Line article does indeed have the smoking gun of proof of use of Phousohourus.  The casing of shell M825A1 was found near a Gaza village.  A smoke shell.  Totally legal. 

UN Strike...Why would the same guy, telling the same story, about the same event, with the same catch phrases, to a different TV station be considered a different report?  

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Profile   Post #: 257
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/19/2009 12:14:07 PM   
ArizonaSunSwitch


Posts: 205
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

As I predicted, Hamas claimed victory.  I am correct once again.

Despite losses suffered, Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh claimed "a heavenly victory" in remarks broadcast on Al-Jazeera Arabic news channel.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,480606,00.html


Hamas could have one person left, hopping around on his last limb (exactly like the monty python script), bleeding from every orifice and they'd still claim victory. I drink to their continued "success".


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Profile   Post #: 258
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/19/2009 12:17:23 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Well, white posphorous has been used in Gaza's densely populated areas whether it be for smoke generation or other, it is a fact that it has been used, and now Amnesty International are on the case and accusing Israel of war crimes. Obviously Israel deny this, but the truth will come out eventually. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why Israel would not let independant journalists into Gaza during the offensive, oh well, journalists are in there now, and any shit that needs to be found, will be found and presented for the world to see.

Amnesty International  report 19 January 2009 -
Israeli army's use of white phosphorus in Gaza is 'clear and undeniable'



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(in reply to ArticMaestro)
Profile   Post #: 259
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/19/2009 12:32:22 PM   
ArizonaSunSwitch


Posts: 205
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

People in support of Israel have just about lost their damn minds.

Get some perspective.

14 Israelis have died.  10 of whom are soldiers.



That's called having competent military and civilian leadership.

quote:


You can't coldly lay the blame of the high death count at the feet of Hamas.  How easily the Israeli government think they can shirk their responsibility for so many civilian deaths is disturbing, and the fact that people in the west can do so too is also beyond frightening.


That's what happens when you fire at a competent military while surrounded by your own civilians.

quote:


I'm going to post a picture of horrible mutilation.  It really is very nasty, just to warn you.  You can say "I could post pictures of death from the Israeli side", but not of the same scale as what has happened to the Palestinians.  Not even close.  Israel have done things in this conflict that are unjustifiable.  Just because they are fighting eeeeeeeeeeevil terrorists (who have killed 14 people, 10 of whom are soldiers) doesn't excuse the response.

This picture is not safe for work.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_rl0N1IJv-p8/SWv8D-CLGcI/AAAAAAAAEKs/VuD8p4HGe9E/s1600-h/006+see+Israel+what+you+done+to+a+Palestinian+child.jpg


Without even bothering to look, yeah, explosives do that. Explosives are contained in hamas rockets also. Israel just happens to hit their targets, and since they're targets are cowards the nearby civilians get shredded too.

quote:


So.... was it worth it?


What was worth what ? Hamas firing rockets ? Israel responding ? Israel not flattening palestine and not flipping Bush the bird and solving the Iran problem for us ? You really must be more specific.

(in reply to KaineD)
Profile   Post #: 260
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