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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/19/2009 3:57:17 PM   
KaineD


Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaSunSwitch


quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

People in support of Israel have just about lost their damn minds.

Get some perspective.

14 Israelis have died.  10 of whom are soldiers.



That's called having competent military and civilian leadership.


I'd say it has more to do with Hamas having nothing more to work with than homemade rockets, really.

quote:


You can't coldly lay the blame of the high death count at the feet of Hamas.  How easily the Israeli government think they can shirk their responsibility for so many civilian deaths is disturbing, and the fact that people in the west can do so too is also beyond frightening.


That's what happens when you fire at a competent military while surrounded by your own civilians.

Um, no.  This isn't a 2 plus 2 mathematic sum here.  Hamas rocket attacks does not equal 60 air strikes every night for 3 weeks as the response.  You would think if they were such a competent military as you call them, with their expensive hardware, highly trained troops, and guided missiles, they could do a better job of actually hitting the people they intend to hit.

quote:


I'm going to post a picture of horrible mutilation.  It really is very nasty, just to warn you.  You can say "I could post pictures of death from the Israeli side", but not of the same scale as what has happened to the Palestinians.  Not even close.  Israel have done things in this conflict that are unjustifiable.  Just because they are fighting eeeeeeeeeeevil terrorists (who have killed 14 people, 10 of whom are soldiers) doesn't excuse the response.

This picture is not safe for work.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_rl0N1IJv-p8/SWv8D-CLGcI/AAAAAAAAEKs/VuD8p4HGe9E/s1600-h/006+see+Israel+what+you+done+to+a+Palestinian+child.jpg


Without even bothering to look, yeah, explosives do that. Explosives are contained in hamas rockets also. Israel just happens to hit their targets, and since they're targets are cowards the nearby civilians get shredded too.

Their, not they're.  And as well as being investigated for using white phosphorus, there are demands by senior UN officials that the Israeli military also be investigated for using human shields.  Kind of ironic seeing that's what they kept accusing Hamas of doing, huh?  So it looks like the IDF are liars AND cowards AND hypocrites.  Pending further investigation, of course.  But the thing is, dangerously, you just take the IDF's word that Hamas use human shields.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/13/gaza-israel-war-crimes

quote:


So.... was it worth it?


What was worth what ? Hamas firing rockets ? Israel responding ? Israel not flattening palestine and not flipping Bush the bird and solving the Iran problem for us ? You really must be more specific.


Was it worth it in the sense, after over 1, 300 have died, will these attacks even have solved anything in the long run?  Or, as I believe, will Israel have simply made things worse?

Anyway, how competent can Israelis army really be, when a terrorist group gets a better soldier vs civilian ratio in their kills on Israel?

EDIT:  Quotation system is kinda screwed.  Sure you can figure out what's yours and mine though.

< Message edited by KaineD -- 1/19/2009 4:18:27 PM >

(in reply to ArizonaSunSwitch)
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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/19/2009 4:13:31 PM   
MissSepphora1


Posts: 669
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline 		I noticed you avoiding the statement of Hamas' claims of victory, Kaine.  Does that embarass you as much as it does everyone else?   Well, except Haniyea of course.

(in reply to KaineD)
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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/19/2009 4:17:21 PM   
KaineD


Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

I noticed you avoiding the statement of Hamas' claims of victory, Kaine.  Does that embarass you as much as it does everyone else?   Well, except Haniyea of course.


I am not here to defend Hamas.

(in reply to MissSepphora1)
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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/19/2009 5:58:42 PM   
MissSepphora1


Posts: 669
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline 		well it's funny that's what you've been doing through the whole thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

I noticed you avoiding the statement of Hamas' claims of victory, Kaine.  Does that embarass you as much as it does everyone else?   Well, except Haniyea of course.


I am not here to defend Hamas.

(in reply to KaineD)
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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/19/2009 7:22:22 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

well it's funny that's what you've been doing through the whole thread.


Yep.

Firm


_____________________________

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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/19/2009 8:36:51 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

well it's funny that's what you've been doing through the whole thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

I noticed you avoiding the statement of Hamas' claims of victory, Kaine.  Does that embarass you as much as it does everyone else?   Well, except Haniyea of course.


I am not here to defend Hamas.



Nope,he`s been defending logic truth and fair play.

~~~~~

Supposedly the invasion was to stop the rocket attacks.Which it hasn`t.

The Palestinians say they`ll stop firing them when Israel ends it`s 18 month long blockade of Gaza and lets people there go to their jobs(outside of Gaza).

~~~~~~~~~~

KaineD has done a remarkable job holding up his end without personal attacks or non-sense/non-arguments.He`s been treating the discussion with respect and with sincerity.Something most of his opponents haven`t.


Using the "Hamas is bad" as an excuse for killing so many civilians is disgusting.


Does anybody think it`s fishy that Israel is planning to be out by the inauguration?

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/19/2009 8:44:00 PM >

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"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

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(in reply to MissSepphora1)
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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/19/2009 8:45:25 PM   
davemamet


Posts: 5
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline 		perhaps hamas should not have been firing over 3000 rockets into Israel for over the past year. 

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/19/2009 8:52:44 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Perhaps Israel should give back the land they stole.Chicken egg-egg chicken.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to davemamet)
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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/19/2009 8:59:43 PM   
ArticMaestro


Posts: 178
Joined: 12/8/2008
Status: offline 		What actualy happening is pretty amazing, It isn't really being anounced, what the US has agreed to, but Obama and Hillary made the call.  We are agreeing to unprecedented garuntees for Isreal. (Obama did say something about putting Isreal under our Nuclear Umbrella durring the campaign, but it did nto get explored much)  It seems like we are going to put US forces in Gaza, to prevent Hamas from smuggling in guns.  And we may end up shooting them ourselves.  The regional Arab Leaders, are backing Abbas.  And Hamas is over.   Hopefully they wont try a death battle, and bring Isreal back in, though it would seem to be hte butchers last option.   If Abbas takes over, Hamas leaders will hang.  Not that Abbas is a saint, but he's not suicidal.

And its about time.  Hamas was elected to a bare majority in an election seen by everyone as an anti corruption vote.  After which they claimed a mandate to shoot up the opposition, kill hundreds of Palestinians in street fighting in Gaza (with women and children getting killed) , to sieze absolute power and lauch Suicide bombings and Rocket attacks on Isreal, which the people there suffered.  While cancelling all further elections....Hamas is garbage.  Hamas is not Palestine.

Anyone who cares about the condition of the Palestinian People, has to realise this.  Otherwise you are accepting the Hamas theory that the "Palestinian People must suffer untill Isreal is no more."  Whether through ignorance or Malice is hard to tell. 

Hamas signed its death knell, when it signed up with Iran, The Arabs will not tolerate that.  Hezbollah is probably next on that list.

Hamas doesn't speak for Palestine. 

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/19/2009 9:07:37 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		The skulduggery will be on the way out.

People of good will who love peace(not make pretend peace) ,set about the hard tasks of working out the problems, will be on the way in.

The war monger`s party will be over soon.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to ArticMaestro)
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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/19/2009 11:19:23 PM   
KaineD


Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

well it's funny that's what you've been doing through the whole thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

I noticed you avoiding the statement of Hamas' claims of victory, Kaine.  Does that embarass you as much as it does everyone else?   Well, except Haniyea of course.


I am not here to defend Hamas.



Nope,he`s been defending logic truth and fair play.

~~~~~

Supposedly the invasion was to stop the rocket attacks.Which it hasn`t.

The Palestinians say they`ll stop firing them when Israel ends it`s 18 month long blockade of Gaza and lets people there go to their jobs(outside of Gaza).

~~~~~~~~~~

KaineD has done a remarkable job holding up his end without personal attacks or non-sense/non-arguments.He`s been treating the discussion with respect and with sincerity.Something most of his opponents haven`t.


Using the "Hamas is bad" as an excuse for killing so many civilians is disgusting.


Does anybody think it`s fishy that Israel is planning to be out by the inauguration?


Thanks for the support, man.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 271
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/19/2009 11:54:30 PM   
gman992


Posts: 120
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		All I know is this---when Clinton was trying to broker a peace agreement between Palestine and Israel, Israel said that they would gladly give land for peace as long as the Palestinians recognized Israel. They said no way. Israel then gave up the Gaza Strip as a peace offer in 2006(?), and the Palestinians are using that land to shoot rockets into Israel. So can you trust someone who abuses a peace offering? 

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/20/2009 12:15:21 AM   
ArticMaestro


Posts: 178
Joined: 12/8/2008
Status: offline 		Gman, I hope you realise that the People of Palestine, don't get to choose thier leaders.  Hamas was assisted in derailing Clintons peace plan by saddam, paying a bonus to any familly who had a martyr son.  Now they get equipment from Shiite Iran.  A minority of Palestinians drug the rest into this at gunpoint.  It looks like the Egyptians (and the rest of the Arabs)are finally going to get serious about helping Palestine. 

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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/20/2009 12:40:53 AM   
ArizonaSunSwitch


Posts: 205
Joined: 11/14/2005
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quote:


Was it worth it in the sense, after over 1, 300 have died, will these attacks even have solved anything in the long run?  Or, as I believe, will Israel have simply made things worse?


Of course it solved nothing. Here's how things happen there. 1). Hamas, the PLO, or whatever group of thugs kill some jews. 2). Israel responds, sometimes effectively at first, sometimes not. 3). A combination of anti-Semites and just plain stupid hippie types start pressuring their own governments to put pressure on Israel (Our country is the worst offender). 4). Whatever group that started the mess re-arms during the predictable ceasefire. 5). Hamas or some other raghead group starts the process over again.

There won't be peace until the War is over. Since Israel's enemies are primarily brainwashed religious fanatics the war won't end until 1) Israel wipes them all out at once, which would results in 100's of thousands of civilian casualties. 2). Israel begins bombing the sponsoring governments whenever a rocket flies across their border (ie. All out war with Iran before they get the bomb).

Israel has and continues to show incredible, borderline stupid, restraint.

Not finishing a War results in these long periods of bullshit. It can be argued this whole situation is a result of ending WWII before Germany's allies in the middle east were given the same treatment Germany and Japan received from the Allied forces.

quote:


Anyway, how competent can Israelis army really be, when a terrorist group gets a better soldier vs civilian ratio in their kills on Israel?

EDIT:  Quotation system is kinda screwed.  Sure you can figure out what's yours and mine though.


Yo, hamas rockets have never killed a soldier and only the military not civilians invaded. Hamas and the rest of them *TARGET* civilians. Innocent palestinians (Ie. the ones that *want* to live in peace with Israel) die because Hamas uses their neighborhoods to launch rockets and store weapons and explosives.

Your assertion is so laughable i have to wonder if you were abused by a jew growing up.

(in reply to KaineD)
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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/20/2009 4:52:56 AM   
KaineD


Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline 		Yeah I'm not bothering to address that.  You've gotten your debate tactics from Sean Hannity.

(in reply to ArizonaSunSwitch)
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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/20/2009 5:06:05 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The skulduggery will be on the way out.

People of good will who love peace(not make pretend peace) ,set about the hard tasks of working out the problems, will be on the way in.

The war monger`s party will be over soon.


Jan 19, 2009 20:58 | Updated Jan 20, 2009 11:27
'Hamas torturing Fatah members in Gaza'
By KHALED ABU TOAMEH

Hamas militiamen have rounded up hundreds of Fatah activists on suspicion of "collaboration" with Israel during Operation Cast Lead

...

They said the Hamas crackdown on Fatah intensified after the cease-fire went into effect early Sunday morning.

...

at least three of the detainees had their eyes put out by their interrogators, who accused them of providing Israel with wartime information about the location of Hamas militiamen and officials.

...

"They were afraid to confront the Israeli army and many Hamas militiamen even ran away during the fighting," he said. "Hamas is now venting its anger and frustration against our Fatah members there."

...

The eyewitnesses said that a children's hospital and a mental health center in Gaza City, as well as a number of school buildings in Khan Yunis and Rafah, were among the places that Hamas had turned into "torture centers."

A Fatah activist in Gaza City claimed that as many as 80 members of his faction were either shot in the legs or had their hands broken for allegedly defying Hamas's house-arrest orders.

"What's happening in the Gaza Strip is a new massacre that is being carried out by Hamas against Fatah," he said. "Where were these [Hamas] cowards when the Israeli army was here?"

...

Relatives of Abed al-Gharabli, a former Fatah security officer who spent 12 years in Israeli prisons, said he was kidnapped by a group of Hamas militiamen who shot him in both legs after severely torturing him.

Ziad Abu Hayeh, one of the commanders of Fatah's armed wing, the Aksa Martyrs Brigades, is reported to have lost his sight after Hamas gunmen put out his eyes. According to Fatah activists, Abu Hayeh was kidnapped from his home in Khan Yunis by Hamas militiamen.

The Fatah men said that in a number of incidents, Hamas militiamen had kidnapped Fatah activists while they were attending the funerals of people killed during the war. In other cases, activists were detained and shot in the legs after they were spotted smiling in public - an act interpreted by Hamas as an expression of joy over Israel's military offensive.

On Saturday night, three brothers from the Subuh family were abducted by Hamas militiamen and taken to the Abdel Aziz Rantisi Mosque in Khan Yunis, where they were shot in the legs, a local journalist told the Post.

In a more recent incident, Hamas gunmen shot and killed 80-year-old Hisham Tawfik Najjar after storming his home and beating his four sons - all Fatah activists.

Fahmi Za'areer, a Fatah spokesman in the West Bank, revealed that at least 16 Fatah activists had been executed by Hamas in the past few days. He strongly condemned the Hamas clampdown on Fatah and warned against a bloodbath in the Gaza Strip.
Yeah.  Hamas is "working out" its problems, being people of "good will" who "love peace" and all ...

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/20/2009 5:07:06 AM   
MissSepphora1


Posts: 669
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline 		Wow!  Thank God for that!!!!  You know, I thought it was Al-Qaeda, Hezbullah, Hamas, and all those other splinter groups like the ones who attacked innocent people in hotels in Mumbai.  Islamist groups have killed almost 2000 people in the Philippines since 2000, a country that is 95% Catholic.  I guess that other 5% resents going into another country's peaceful setting and religious makeup and decides they can't live with it.
Please, for the love of God, don't blame President Bush for terrorism across the world.  Calling him a war-monger is excusing every terrorist attack on civilians across the globe...

PS - and this is a BIGGIE!!!!!!!!  The first World Trade Center bombing happened during Clinton.  I guess he was a big war monger as well!!!?!?!?!?!


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The skulduggery will be on the way out.

People of good will who love peace(not make pretend peace) ,set about the hard tasks of working out the problems, will be on the way in.

The war monger`s party will be over soon.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 277
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/20/2009 5:22:44 AM   
KaineD


Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline 		Some new information about the use of white phosphorus in civilian areas in Gaza.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7838598.stm

Amnesty International has accused Israel of using white phosphorus in civilian areas of the Gaza Strip.
 
The substance can kill or cause serious injuries by burning through skin, and it is banned near civilians. Armies may use it to create smoke screens.

The UN and Human Rights Watch have already accused the Israeli army of firing white phosphorus shells in Gaza.

Israel has said all the weapons it used in its three-week offensive in Gaza were permitted by international law. 

Amnesty said a fact-finding team found "indisputable evidence of the widespread use of white phosphorus" in crowded residential areas of Gaza City and elsewhere in the territory.  
 
"Yesterday, we saw streets and alleyways littered with evidence of the use of white phosphorus, including still-burning wedges and the remnants of the shells and canisters fired by the Israeli army," said Christopher Cobb-Smitt, a weapons expert with the Amnesty team in Gaza.

Oh dear.

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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/20/2009 6:03:16 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Hamas is "working out" its problems, being people of "good will" who "love peace" and all ...

Firm
How interesting that journalists have been allowed full access to Gaza to report on alleged Palestinian in-fighting but were personae non grata during the Israeli onslaught.                                                                                                                                 Even if these reports were true (and it's important to note, your article states before describing each incident "it has been reported" - ie, "it is not confirmed")  I would think that no amount of wrong-doing by one party justifies wrong-doing by another.  No matter how low Hamas are accused of going, I can't see it justifying Israeli brutality against Palestinian civilians.  Quite the opposite, it should evoke greater sympathy.                                                                                                                                          Perhaps then, this report is aimed at that very real sense of human sympathy that the Israeli public must feel for ordinary Palestinian families, even as they go to the ballot box to re-elect the politicians who ordered this inglorious attack.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    UK law allows us to prosecute the perpetrators of war crimes, even if they have never set foot in our country.  I for one will be writing to my political represenatives and asking that any general staff responsible for such crimes be extradited to our country to face trial.  And when Israel will not surrender them, I hope they will fear ever to set foot here, knowing that a judge and jury awaits them.(Apologies if formatting problems make my post hard to read.)

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/20/2009 6:12:38 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...not going to quote you HK. Your own words are eloquent enough. However, you present a connection that ought not be made You have fallen into a trap. i've seen you point out to others when they have falen into such a trap. i'm not trying to be mean when i do the same service for you.

The Holocaust is one of those events in human history that must never be forgotten. It is not the only one of its kind. Pol Pot's Year Zero for instance. People still live that wee involved in both events.
These events contine to have their effects.

However, what is done by the State of Israel is a separate issue. To use the Holocaust, in any way, to justify the actions of a political entity that only came to exist after the Holocaust is to take meaning away from it. Such a use of the Holocaust weakens its signifience. Takes away from its power.

i do not forgive a murderer just because their uncle, aunt and all grandparents were murdered. To try to do so does not honour the memory of those murdered people does it?
What is done by Israel is DIRECTLY RELATED to what was done to the Jews during the Holocaust. What the Arab nations are doing is nothing more than a continuation of the Holocaust at low level by proxy. Nobody can convince me otherwise.  If my position is irrational and contradictory, so be it.

This whole drama could be over tomorrow if the Arabs leave the Jews alone, and stop trying to drive Israel into the sea. Maybe if the Arabs hadn't started the 6 day war, they wouldn't have lost the land they now lie about being "stolen".

The Genocide against the Jews is unique, despite protestations that Pol-Pot's "Year Zero" and the "Turkification" of the Ottoman Empire are equivalent, not only because of the scope of the Holocaust, but because Germany invaded other nations for the express purpose of ridding Europe of the Jews.

The world decided in 1948 to give the Jews a homeland in the ME. Israel was founded, now exists, will exist, and the murderous shitheads in the Arab world need to get over it.



_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

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