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New sub's point of view - have you experienced this? - 1/11/2009 1:32:54 PM   
DominaSmartass


Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline 		Warning: the following might get rambly

I'm posting here in Ask a Mistress because I think what I experienced the other day is something common in a certain percentage of male subs. I can't say how prevalent I think it is because this is the first time someone has actually voiced it to me, but it would sure explain a lot of what I've encountered in terms of male subs (especially new ones.) I would love to know if you (on the dom side) have ever experienced this mentality before or if you (from the sub side) ever did or do still feel this way. Bear with me, it needs some detailed explanation.

So here goes. I get an email from a male sub who just joined CM a few days ago and though his profile is horrific (one nearly incoherent line of text) the letter was alright, except for the fact that it was one of those "I would love to serve your needs and fulfill your wants and desires. I adore aggressive dominant women" types. I wrote back and asked him a bunch of questions, he wrote back and answered them, so I decided he might be worth the time to IM. That's when I found out (according to him):

1. He's "always" been submissive to "strong" women.
2. He doesn't differentiate, any woman who will give him a chance will do.
3. He doesn't have any "needs"
4. He's never actually met a dom in real life and gets most/all of his ideas about WIITWD from porn.
I probably don't need to go on...you know the type.

Despite all of that, there was something about him that kept me interested. He sounded bright and really wanted someone to allow him to serve, and no indication that by "serve" he just wanted to get laid or have someone do things to him, so the conversation continued. It was at this point where it got really interesting.

Through the course of the conversation he began to admit that he'd been looking at a D/s relationship REALLY wrong. To paraphrase, he said something like "I didn't even consider that it was so involved for you or that you would get attached to a sub. I thought they would just be viewed as a piece of meat." He went on to say that he assumed doms had subs lining up out the door and that if it didn't work out with one that they could choose from one of hundreds to use next.

I was floored by this really. I actually couldn't believe he was serious. How could someone think that a dom wouldn't care who her sub was or what kind of person he is? I explained to him that it takes a long time to find someone I'm even remotely compatible enough with just to meet and from there the chances of liking them further were slim. I told him about all the work I put into a relationship and how seriously I take my responsibilities when I'm someone's dom. We kept talking about it and maybe I'm just gullible but I really believe he never thought of D/s as an actual relationship before. Don't ask me how, I have no clue, but if this is for real then does this explain all the submissive men who waste our time, suck up our energy and attention and then go "poof" as if they never existed in the first place?

I couldn't help but pose this to all of you because I have to know if anyone has ever witnessed someone coming to this realization before or if I'm being fed a load of crap.

One more thing...in the time that's passed since the initial conversation, we've decided to meet this week for dinner but he's expressed that he is not ready for a D/s relationship, has way too much to learn and understand before he commits to someone, needs to spend some time experimenting and learning what he likes and what he's looking for, but really does want to meet me and continue what's been a lot of good conversation. I want to say wow...can the male species really be taught? Has he really learned something? (everything feels sincere) or is he completely bullshitting me? (it's just hard for me to believe anyone could think that way to begin with) Either way, I guess I'll find out in time.

Thanks for reading, I know, long and rambly, but thanks.



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“These S&M people ... they are bossy! There’s also a creepy connection between leather sex, ‘Star Trek’ and the Renaissance Faire.”

- Comedian Margaret Cho
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RE: New sub's point of view - have you experienced this? - 1/11/2009 1:48:19 PM   
footslaveinct


Posts: 23
Joined: 6/6/2007
Status: offline 		This is really very interesting. It bring 2 thoughts into my head. One is that we must never forget that a d/s relationship is a relationship 1st and d/s 2nd and no one should take the relationship part for granted, just because we share a unique common interest.

2nd is I think some subs become jaded because their first experiences in d/s may very well have been with a pro-domme and to some you are just an object to make financial gain.

(in reply to DominaSmartass)
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RE: New sub's point of view - have you experienced this? - 1/11/2009 2:34:27 PM   
CdnExplorer


Posts: 227
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline 		I know that I felt for the longest time that being a submissive guy meant being treated like crap by an uncaring domme. In ye hoary olde days of the internet finding anything that represented femdom as anything else was a challenge. I certainly never stumbled across it. I didn't do the pro-domme thing, but I still wound up with the same jaded perspective. It wasn't all that great for the self-esteem either.

Before I was given a healthy dose of perspective by the friends I eventually made I likely would have made the same assumption, had I ever worked up the nerve to actually pursue my desires.

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RE: New sub's point of view - have you experienced this? - 1/11/2009 2:44:55 PM   
IamShe


Posts: 24
Joined: 1/3/2009
Status: offline 		IMHO you've been 'had' by someone on CM trying to hack other IM accounts if you'll give them the IM identity info.

The only thing your opening email from the 'sub' lacked was that insufferable 'the first time I ever got turned on by a really 'strong' female was when I was watching 'The Little Mermaid' b.s.........but even without that line, the rest of his intro to you was identical to a bazillion others I've received, whether here at CM or elsewhere. 

It reminds me of the old Yahoo group of online hng's who emailed scenarios whenever they were bored at home because 'mommy' was yelling at them to go mow the lawn instead of 'playing on their computer'.

That's just My take on it.

I am She

< Message edited by IamShe -- 1/11/2009 2:50:12 PM >

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RE: New sub's point of view - have you experienced this? - 1/11/2009 2:47:43 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		OK - i am going to go out on a thin limb, and say that for a lot of men, the physical expression of their dreams and lusts are as far as they think to go. They don't think emotionally, they think physically.

I have heard that they go as sweet as they can to get the sex from women. And women give sex to get the sweetness, and i think there is a lot of truth in that.

For a lot of men, relationships and sex is a competition, a goal to strive for. How they get there is not an issue - its just a means to an end.

I was lucky to find a man who is more into partner mode in our D/s relationship - we are equals in our relationship. Its not a contest, its more of a team towards an end, with him as the team leader.

I think also that some men (and women - i just happen to be generalising about men - lol) get stuck emotionally in adolescence where sensation is more important than relationships.

Screening processes should sort out which camp our volunteers fall into.

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RE: New sub's point of view - have you experienced this? - 1/11/2009 3:32:50 PM   
ShaktiSama


Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline 		Honestly, I think that people exist at three levels:  instinctive desire, cultural training and personal experience.

The kind of new subs described in the OP have no personal experience to draw on, especially in a formal D/S dynamic.  They are products ONLY of instinctive desire and cultural training.  And the culture that trains them is *not* BDSM culture or the BDSM community.  The culture that trains them is North American Porn Culture (Califiornia produces more than 90% of all the pornography consumed on the planet Earth) and of course the culture of their birthplace and family.

To my knowledge, only in the modern BDSM culture is there a space for healthy dominant-submissive and sadist-masochist dynamics which are based on freedom of choice, consent, mutual pleasure, and equality between the sexes.  Given that the concept of "BDSM" and its attendent philosophy are such new ideas, it should be no surprise that newcomers to the community are going to take some time to acclimatize.  The dominant cultures of Ameri-porn and patriarchy are particularly hostile to female dominants and male submissives, since only the reversed pairing is naturalized as "correct":  this is why virtually all depictions of dommes in pornography are hostile, shrill, and/or destructive (they don't call certain women "femmes fatales" for nothing), while the associated depictions of male submission are often weak, whiny, childish etc..

I personally am just glad to be part of the progress.  Dominance, submission, masochism, sadism, and the drive to make these urges into games and pageantry are as ancient as humankind.  It's about time we figured out how to do it right. 




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"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

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RE: New sub's point of view - have you experienced this? - 1/11/2009 3:42:44 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama
The kind of new subs described in the OP have no personal experience to draw on, especially in a formal D/S dynamic.  They are products ONLY of instinctive desire and cultural training.  And the culture that trains them is *not* BDSM culture or the BDSM community.  The culture that trains them is North American Porn Culture (Califiornia produces more than 90% of all the pornography consumed on the planet Earth) and of course the culture of their birthplace and family.

I strongly agree with this.  I also saw no red flags in the opening post, and think the guy is worth meeting.

DominaSmartAss, if you've never seriously cruised femdom-malesub porn, you might give it a try, even if it doesn't turn you on, so you can see what so many men believe female dominants (and male subs) are "supposed to be like."


_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

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RE: New sub's point of view - have you experienced this? - 1/11/2009 4:05:13 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		DominaSmartass, I encounter those kinds of men often.  If you have the patience ( and I used to )it might be worth your while to show him the real side of things.

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RE: New sub's point of view - have you experienced this? - 1/11/2009 4:33:52 PM   
MistressAinCT


Posts: 205
Joined: 2/21/2004
Status: offline 		First I would like to address the title of the post: "new sub"?  he isn't even sure he is a new sub so he can hardly identify with that name.  Let's hope he DOES come over to the dark side (we have better cookies)...

Anywho...I agree with most people.  Pick up any issue of DDI and see some long legged, leather clad  bitchDomme stepping on some poor schmuck's balls while he is gagged and that's what the general public thinks we do all day long.  If only...

Hence the cold, uncaring and unfeeling Dominant Female who chews up and spits out subs like Trident Gum.  And I have to say that there are many slaves/subs who like and expect that kind of thing from us. Its their kink and they enjoy it-nothing wrong with that.

If I could only have a 100 bucks for every sub who broke My heart or made Me cry and took a piece of Me when he walked out the door.  I don't care WHAT a hardass Dominant says: I have seen the best of them crumble when slave they cared about leaves the dungeon for the last time.  That goes for the male Dominants as well (but they will never admit it). 

So it doesn't surprise Me that this person is shocked and surprised.  Also, its a plus that he recognizes he is NOT ready for a D/s relationship and at least has the open mind to explore.  For all you know he could wind up a switch or worse-a Dom!  But so many here don't even know themselves and wind up taking us all on that horrible, long ride we KNOW is going to end in aggravation. To your new friend I say, "Kudos!"

Let us all know what happens, as I am sure we're curious.  Of course, the more skeptical of us thinks this guy is probably another clown, but hey, its a free meal, yeah?  Just be careful!

_____________________________

When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow www.mobiusmetals.webs.com

So many toys-so little flesh...

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RE: New sub's point of view - have you experienced this? - 1/11/2009 4:42:39 PM   
mc1234


Posts: 683
Joined: 10/4/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1
DominaSmartAss, if you've never seriously cruised femdom-malesub porn, you might give it a try, even if it doesn't turn you on, so you can see what so many men believe female dominants (and male subs) are "supposed to be like."


Just another 'I agree' post here.  Even just logging onto CM there are femdom websites that are mainly cliche images - if I didn't know better (and I didn't a few years ago), I may have thought something similar - that this is what Dommes desire.  Now, I don't draw most of my conclusions from porn, lol, but I can easily see how someone who is just beginning to understand himself sees and processes. 

I know before exploring my kinky side, my understanding of BDSM was from cultural references and I didn't have a clue about the reality of it all.  If you truly feel he's sincere, I'd go out with him and see if your instincts are right about him.  Even if you don't click together, you may make a friend and maybe help him along in his understanding, if this is something you feel you'd like to do.  Sometimes a different POV is what's needed to open our eyes.


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RE: New sub's point of view - have you experienced this? - 1/11/2009 8:24:32 PM   
DominaSmartass


Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IamShe

IMHO you've been 'had' by someone on CM trying to hack other IM accounts if you'll give them the IM identity info.


Interesting perspective but I think it's a little far fetched. I guess I'll find out if/when we meet, which is supposed to be this Tuesday.

Thanks to all for your insight, I think those that referred back to the femdom porn images are correct in this case, it's just that I have some sort of mental block actually understanding that men see this stuff and believe it's the way we function in reality. I guess it's true they really do but I find myself unable to believe that they do, precisely because it's so far from any reality I know.

My eyes are wide open on this one and I'm not expecting anything out of it but if I can help him figure out who he is a little bit better and bring his fantasies more in line with the real world I'll be happy.

_____________________________

“These S&M people ... they are bossy! There’s also a creepy connection between leather sex, ‘Star Trek’ and the Renaissance Faire.”

- Comedian Margaret Cho

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RE: New sub's point of view - have you experienced this? - 1/11/2009 8:25:59 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		Hmm.... too much porn I think. 

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RE: New sub's point of view - have you experienced this? - 1/11/2009 8:36:16 PM   
hereyesruponyou


Posts: 770
Joined: 1/22/2007
Status: offline 		I think it is a big step for him to say he need to continue to explore and learn. I took his desire to meet with you and continue to talk with you without getting into a "relationship" as a sincere desire for a mentor/friend who understands. What is he asking from you at this point? I'm not seeing anything that says - omg no, don't dare meet him. Worst scenario you get a meal out of it and a story to tell (like all dates,vanilla or kink).  good luck

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RE: New sub's point of view - have you experienced this? - 1/11/2009 9:03:26 PM   
DelilahDeb


Posts: 429
Joined: 1/27/2008
Status: offline 		Welcome to the world of the educator. All of us who have experience with real-world BDSM may find ourselves in such a position at any time. I'm fortunate to have dealt with the process of mentoring newcomers to various unique subcultures (British Traditional Wicca for one) before I became active in the scene. Thus, I have dealt with the great gap between fictional-but-mainstream beliefs about a subculture in which I participate and the realities that I may be able to convey in plain English.

In some ways, I'm ill-equipped to mentor someone new to the scene, just because I am not familiar with American visual porn, much less BDSM porn. (Doesn't turn my crank; now the right emotional literature works just fine, but it needs content other than stick tab A into slot B.)

Anyway, it's good to recognize that you've become this particular sub's "way in", and enjoy the process.

Lady Delilah Deb

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--from the Charge of the Goddess, a Wiccan teaching

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RE: New sub's point of view - have you experienced this? - 1/11/2009 9:03:34 PM   
DominaSmartass


Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hereyesruponyou

I think it is a big step for him to say he need to continue to explore and learn. I took his desire to meet with you and continue to talk with you without getting into a "relationship" as a sincere desire for a mentor/friend who understands. What is he asking from you at this point? I'm not seeing anything that says - omg no, don't dare meet him. Worst scenario you get a meal out of it and a story to tell (like all dates,vanilla or kink).  good luck


Oh, most definitely. His coming to that realization on his own took me by surprise and I'm happy that (hopefully) he won't turn into one of those that jumps from one relationship to the next without having a clue what he really wants.

I don't get any red flags about him and yeah, he's buying dinner so nothing lost if it turns out to be a "bad date." I don't think he's asking anything from me, which is probably why I'm willing to give him my time. Funny how that works, isn't it?

_____________________________

“These S&M people ... they are bossy! There’s also a creepy connection between leather sex, ‘Star Trek’ and the Renaissance Faire.”

- Comedian Margaret Cho

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RE: New sub's point of view - have you experienced this? - 1/11/2009 9:27:55 PM   
FullfigRIMAAM1


Posts: 1160
Joined: 11/20/2008
Status: offline 		The other side of this coin is that there are many men who are attracted to this kind of thinking and exchange, because while they are perfectly comfortable connecting to a woman on a physical, intensely sexually charged, impersonal level, they have no desire to go beyond the superficial and risk it becoming a sentimental entanglement. M

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The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands.-Robert M. Persig

Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence Erich Fromm

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RE: New sub's point of view - have you experienced this? - 1/11/2009 10:31:12 PM   
YoursMistress


Posts: 894
Joined: 12/17/2008
Status: offline 		Wow, may I say that I connect to this completely.  I am wanting to get some insight from it to avoid making some of the same mistakes.  I, like your subject, am completely new, but am recognizing deep and old longings to which I can finally give names.  Now, how to realize this.  I too entered a miserable profile here and on another site, had horrible luck, started to watch what my peers were doing and adopted those same practices and terminology as well.  After bombarding numerous Mistresses with poorly written emails, I started to learn the language better and understand how to say things to become (or maybe to seem) more acceptable and desirable.  I can imagine a real life meeting with a prospective Domme going in a similar way. 

Since I don't know near enough about what I like, I need to find ways to explore.  One is the pay professionals.  But I don't think that is really going to help me start a personal relationship.  I feel overmatched in trying to approach serious Dommes who appeal to me.  In approaching Dommes that don't appeal to me, I wonder what am I saying about me, if I am willing to settle, and Her, if I am approaching Her only as a test or interim partner.  I truly don't feel like I'm being dishonest, but I'm sure I tend to exaggerate a bit reagarding experience, wants and desires. 

Thanks to DominaSmartass for this post, as I believe it to be a wonderful oppotunity for the newer of us to gain some of our prospective audience's perspective. 

yours


_____________________________

May your service of love a beautiful thing; want nothing else, fear nothing else and let love be free to become what love truly is. -- Hadewijch of Antwerp

As a rule, I don't like to make general statements.

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RE: New sub's point of view - have you experienced this? - 1/12/2009 5:01:27 AM   
MistressAinCT


Posts: 205
Joined: 2/21/2004
Status: offline 		There is a third side to this coin...I had another thought (these can be dangerous...)

Some men want to explore BDSM but they don't want to go to or pay a ProDomme.  I think many look on collarme for the FREEBIES they can get here.  Their profiles usually read "Not a financial slave" or some such nonsense. 

Could it be this person wants to explore or find out all he can for his own purpose?  I am sure you spoke at length to this guy and feel comfortable with him and perhaps we are all suspicious of the characters here, but I would be careful and NOT give anything away. 

I'm not suggesting you Pro-unless you want to-but that you just listen to what he ISN'T saying.  I am Pro, and I make My money with guys who just want to try it out or are curious.  You don't want to train this person for weeks maybe months, only to have home bolt on you when he gets what he wants.  We would all hate to see you get emotionally attached to someone who is going to take from you but not give. 

And just because he might like the sensations of being topped, doesn't mean he will like the other things that go with it like service.  If you are all right with just the physical aspect, then go for it.  I think-and I'm sure most would agree-that BDSM starts out as physical and visual :the leather, whips, bondage, etc. then grows into emotional.  Of course, some never do go in that direction and we all have to be prepared. 

Good luck!

_____________________________

When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow www.mobiusmetals.webs.com

So many toys-so little flesh...

(in reply to YoursMistress)
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RE: New sub's point of view - have you experienced this? - 1/12/2009 6:27:20 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		 . . .he's expressed that he is not ready for a D/s relationship, has way too much to learn and understand before he commits to someone . . .
 
If you think he's sincere about that learning and understanding, I'd suggest you direct him right here to this forum.  I've picked up shedloads of knowledge here both about others, and myself.

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http://www.domme-chronicles.com


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RE: New sub's point of view - have you experienced this? - 1/12/2009 7:18:41 AM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: footslaveinct

This is really very interesting. It bring 2 thoughts into my head. One is that we must never forget that a d/s relationship is a relationship 1st and d/s 2nd and no one should take the relationship part for granted, just because we share a unique common interest.

2nd is I think some subs become jaded because their first experiences in d/s may very well have been with a pro-domme and to some you are just an object to make financial gain.



Ah but what about the sub men for whom the fantasy about the relationship is that there is NO relationship?

No matter how you slice it, there's a disconnect between fantasy and reality in some thinking, and when it has to do with relationships, affection, devotion, and objectification, it's hard to put into practical terms or ideas.  An inexperienced submissive man who hasn't yet had a full fledged femdom relationship might not understand how difficult it is to have a totally objectifying relationship with a woman that he lusts for deeply and for whom a connection exists. But in his fantasy, he doesn't take into consideration the weeks and hours of developing a bond, trust and chemistry with a person.

For some, though, this is part of the whole fantasy. Removal of that entire process.

Akasha


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Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

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