RE: More on German human rights...

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JustDarkness -> RE: More on German human rights... (1/14/2009 10:47:25 AM)
quote: I am still not seeing how viewing a symbol in someone's home is open provocation to violence. In some countries overhere..it is allowed to have symbols..inside the house...but not outside visible when it is provoking.

RCdc -> RE: More on German human rights... (1/14/2009 10:48:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro This contradicts your previous allusion to Rosa Parks. She was breaking local laws. She was doing it for all, It touched the entire nation. And plenty of Civil rights actions caused riots and violence, which were very inconvienent or scary to bystanders. Rosa Parkes was breaking a law and she knew it. She was doing it for 'all' as you put it. I am not convinced this man was. Yes the whole law thing is pretty vague and honestly, it's more a caveat than anything. Much of what we do is illegal yet we still do it(BDSM). So yes it is a contradiction and I can totally see it. In my head, I have a very specific thought going on as to why I said that and with it - it is less contradictory. But I am in the UK and local german laws are not my thing I am afraid and so it can only apply as to UK law. So I was probably making a reference to something that was a contradiction and for that I apologise.(If I go into boring UK law on why I came to that thinking it will detract from the thread). (Edit) See D's post above. See I don't know how laws in other countries work, but the removal of the flag n the UK would be pretty standard. the.dark.

RCdc -> RE: More on German human rights... (1/14/2009 11:04:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro I am still not seeing how viewing a symbol in someone's home is open provocation to violence. The man has a history of flying that flag in his window. His rights were curtailed and his property damaged to appease a violent mob, of course he should get compensation, at least to fix the property damaged by the law. Haven't seen any evidence that he is trying for a civil rights jackpot, massive payout. Like I said, I do not know the ins and outs of german law. Had he been in the UK, then the police would be within their legal blah to enter his property and remove the flag regardless or place him under arrest or fine him - UNLESS he has the appropriate documentation and licences to display it. I do know that other european countries have similar laws so it is entirely possible that this is what they used to remove the flag. Yes it's a bi-product of avoiding violence and pandering to the mob. But it is there. quote: After the Mob had passed and there were just a few folks hanging out cursing at him (yelling Dirty Jew!), and the Police ordered his friend to leave his home, You support that? There was no mob at that point. The police allowed people to hang out and harrass him. Why do you support that? I do not. Again, that is a authority issue and bad handling. Human rights issue? Possibly but that isn't what your OP was about in the beginning and not the question. quote: I think the man had every right in the world to hang that flag So do I. And he has every right to accept the consequences of his actions. quote: And the Mob had no right to attack. You are again correct. But they also have the right not to suffer provocation. quote: I think he wanted to see how Milli Gorus would react, and he wanted the world to see how Milli Gorus would react. And there you have it. So why does it have to become a jew vs. muslim thing? So because a small and radical group have the possibiliy of violence, it's all muslims to blame? Because one man fans the flames, all jewish peoples are instigators? Because this is german it is automatically anti semitic? Because it's germany, all europeans are now responsible? He knew precisely how they would react and he placed the people in his building at risk for a stunt? And you think that is ok? the.dark. (yikes my typos)

ArticMaestro -> RE: More on German human rights... (1/14/2009 11:28:44 AM)
Who is blaming all Muslims? Milli Gorus is just one faction of Muslims in Europe. Yelling "Shit Jew" seems rather anti Semetic to me. How could he know precisley how they would react? That seems a rather large reach. He could generally know they would not like it, but thier specific reaction? He wanted to do a counter protest from inside his own home. Seems like a very important civil right to me. It seems like the state placed those people at risk by allowing a violent ethnically religious based anti democratic hate group to mob thier town. But this is all going through the process, and there will be new information coming out soon. "I do know that other european countries have similar laws so it is entirely possible that this is what they used to remove the flag. " The police have apologized and admitted they were wrong, and did it because they were overwhelmed. That dog don't hunt.

JustDarkness -> RE: More on German human rights... (1/14/2009 11:49:49 AM)
The police-chef appologized for having hurt the jewish people..not so much for taking the flag away. Internal affairs minister..said the appology was good..because freedom of opinion is sacred in Germany. Soem politicians though ..said the policie did right...because removing the flag prevented worse. (which is also allowed by German law) Guess they will talk a lott about it in the next days.

ArticMaestro -> RE: More on German human rights... (1/14/2009 11:58:11 AM)
I am pleased to see that some people in Germany and Europe recognize how wrong this was. I am sure there will be more forthcoming, as this plays out.

Phoenixpower -> RE: More on German human rights... (1/17/2009 2:05:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster There was a small "lake" on the edge of Feldkirchen, where I had rented a flat for my stay in München. It was less than 1 hectare in size. Where I grew up (upstate NY), we called that a pond. Ontario is a lake. Perhaps there is the same sort of difference in perception at work here. When I think of a forest, I think of the National Forest north of where I live http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chattahoochee_National_Forest which is 3500 km^2, or a little more than 4 times the area of Berlin-Brandenburg. Kodiak Island, Alaska, where I spnet almost a month helping build a cabin near Larsen Bay, is mostly forest. The forested area is about 3 times the size of the Saarland. Difference in conceptual reference, I think. I still disagree on that one as I was fed up as a child of all the bloody trips through the forests on "great days out." We have more then enough forest where I am from and when I am at home I can spend ages driving through forest areas and certainly far off from "dead land."

NorthernGent -> RE: More on German human rights... (1/17/2009 2:13:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro Interesting story. A pro Palestinian Demostration of about 10,000 people in Germany began attacking an apartment building becase an Isreali Flag was in a window. Instead of dispersing the crowd for violence (after they began attacking the building) The Police broke in and took the flag down. Film and story here. http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/01/german-police-rip-down-israeli-flag-to.html I think the police had to make a decision in the heat of the moment - a pragmatic one at that: "there you go, the flag's gone, go home". Yeah, you could argue over civil liberties and mob rule all day long, but sometimes a pragmatic approach is needed rather than one based on a political philosophy. Perhaps the German police can track down the offenders and charge them with criminal damage.

calamitysandra -> RE: More on German human rights... (1/17/2009 5:40:47 PM)
I am not going to comment long and broad on the main issue, as it has been done over and again already. The mob was wrong, the guy with the flag was trying to provoke,the police did what whoever was in charge thought necessary at the moment, and there will be political hell to pay in the near future. However, I need to get out that I am sick of hearing shouts of "Nazi uprising" and "antisemitism" each and every time Israel is criticized by Germany or Germans. Yes, we have a very special history in that regard, but to use that as an excuse to dispose of every negative comment made in regards to Israel, if it is made in German, is ridiculous. I have been accused of antisemitism when I argued against the fence. The funny part? I am Jewish. Yes, there are some of us left in Germany.

ArticMaestro -> RE: More on German human rights... (1/18/2009 2:04:08 AM)
But that doesn't mean that any charge of Anti Semitism is false. It does get thrown around a lot, often with no real basis, and I purposely did not bring it up. Anti Semitism aside, pandering to the Mob has been the cause of countless atrocities throughout history, accross many cultures. Hitler's rise to power was one. But to be clear a mob of Turkish immigrants shouting Shit Jew and Death to Isreal, is NOT neo Nazi anti semetism. Neo Nazis are a joke, loosers and fools. This is something real and serious.

NorthernGent -> RE: More on German human rights... (1/18/2009 3:59:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro pandering to the Mob You have absolutely no idea how the German police will deal with this. Perhaps they're in the process of tracking down the instigators. I doubt very much that German society is keen on 'pandering to the mob, and I think what you have here is a matter of weighing up the options and choosing the solution to fit that particular situation. Sometimes it's best to diffuse the situation to buy some time before tracking down the ringleaders. The last thing you want on your streets is all hell breaking loose. quote: ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro But to be clear a mob of Turkish immigrants shouting Shit Jew and Death to Isreal, is NOT neo Nazi anti semetism. This is something real and serious. I believe there were attacks on muslims in the US in the wake of the New York terrorist tack. This sort of mob behaviour happens all over the world.

Raechard -> RE: More on German human rights... (1/18/2009 7:16:34 AM)
-fr- Apparently in the UK you are not allowed to paint your house pink if you live in a street where all the other houses are blue or grey. Can you imagine that? Freedom of expression extends so far and then you have to realise it's a balance between someone’s right to express themselves and other peoples right not to have to hear it or see it daily. Personally I'm a bit uneasy with a mob dictating anything, then again if you had to walk past something that disgusted you and was an affront to your beliefs how long would you put up with it? If it was a Nazi symbol would we be having this discussion? The Nazi symbol used to be a religious symbol before people used it for fascist reasons and to some the Israeli flag is taking a similar path as various other flags. Sooner or later the Olympic flag will go down the same route, that's the problem with flags: some people wave them for the right reasons, some people wave them for the wrong reasons and people that see them waved can't tell what reasons they are being waved for i.e. good or bad. An indication of human division really aren’t they? You are either setting yourself with a group or against a group when you wave a flag.

colouredin -> RE: More on German human rights... (1/18/2009 7:26:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Raechard -fr- Apparently in the UK you are not allowed to paint your house pink if you live in a street where all the other houses are blue or grey. It would depend on the council, you cant just paint your house an unusual colour you have to apply for permission to do so, generally it has to be in keeping with the rest of the area. In bath for example you have to build with bath stone. It depends where you live really.

JustDarkness -> RE: More on German human rights... (1/18/2009 7:29:35 AM)
And mostly you know upfront about such when you move in. We have the same overhere. Just soem building rules so one person can not piss off the whole neigbourhood. I really have no problem with rules and don't see them as limited "freedom of expression/opinion/speech"

colouredin -> RE: More on German human rights... (1/18/2009 7:30:54 AM)
Its related to something that I am writing about at the moment. Empowerment of one can be oppressive to many.

JustDarkness -> RE: More on German human rights... (1/18/2009 7:37:03 AM)
True..often people want freedom also when it is their opinion and want it banned when it is others opinion. If we would really accept freedom of speech and opinion..we need to accept things like racism also. And for that..I prefer the rules above full freedom. The Netherlands found a healthy balance between both...freedom and laws.....I personally would want to see it different...well..perhaps a little...lol. What ever it will be... it will never be in a way to please all.

NorthernGent -> RE: More on German human rights... (1/18/2009 7:46:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JustDarkness True..often people want freedom also when it is their opinion and want it banned when it is others opinion. If we would really accept freedom of speech and opinion..we need to accept things like racism also. And for that..I prefer the rules above full freedom. The Netherlands found a healthy balance between both...freedom and laws.....I personally would want to see it different...well..perhaps a little...lol. What ever it will be... it will never be in a way to please all. There was a recent case in England where a high profile businessman (formula 1) had his private affairs splashed all over a newspaper. Basically, he was filmed engaging in an S&M party complete with Nazi uniforms, prisoner uniforms, checking for head lice, head shaving etc. Mosley, the businessman, sued the newspaper for invasion of privacy etc, and won his case. Now, I think the ruling was absolutely the right one - Mosley is indeed entitled to freedom of expression in his private affairs. There is also the matter of Prince Harry. Now, I think it is absolutely right that his private, racist views were placed in the public domain, on the grounds that he is in a position of authority, is in line for the throne; and as such it is a matter of public interest. So, do as you please providing you're not breaking the law and you're not in a position of authority that comes complete with certain responsibilities - such as airing views that suggest you might not be particularly interested in governing on behalf of all of the people.

JustDarkness -> RE: More on German human rights... (1/18/2009 7:51:23 AM)
It is sometimes a thin line..I guess. Some get away with it..others not when..as mentioned...they represent more then just themselfs. Besides that....a judge should indeed look for differences in playing something..or meaning..it. Like the nazi bdsm scene. IF that would have been forbidden...then we can forget war movies also. It was more like a re-enactment.

Raechard -> RE: More on German human rights... (1/18/2009 8:10:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent There was a recent case in England where a high profile businessman (formula 1) had his private affairs splashed all over a newspaper. Basically, he was filmed engaging in an S&M party complete with Nazi uniforms, prisoner uniforms, checking for head lice, head shaving etc. Mosley, the businessman, sued the newspaper for invasion of privacy etc, and won his case. Now, I think the ruling was absolutely the right one - Mosley is indeed entitled to freedom of expression in his private affairs. Part of that ruling was based on the fact the paper didn't adequately prove the scene was Nazi related as the people under cover changed their story as to what exactly the sex games entailed. If you are a public figure and you portray yourself as holding certain high standards of behaviour in your public and private life then a story proving otherwise is deemed newsworthy and in the public interest. Added to this fact is that Max Mosley is the head of an organisation that a lot of German car manufacturers are involved in and they would want this kind of behaviour brought to their attention so they can publically disassociate themselves from it. How he survived when there was so much opposition shows how the FIA is really struggling for leadership.

ArticMaestro -> RE: More on German human rights... (1/18/2009 11:17:08 AM)
"Personally I'm a bit uneasy with a mob dictating anything, then again if you had to walk past something that disgusted you and was an affront to your beliefs how long would you put up with it?" That's interesting. They had to walk past it? They had to look up at the 3rd story apartments? The second half is what caused the whole thing. P was disgusted by the behavior at high profile Anti Isreal rallies occurring all over Europe (lots of documented anti Semetism and Hate, several Governments are investigating), and raised a silent protest. To be attacked by the Mob. Futhermore, Imagine someone who hates Kink, considers it disgusting and an afront. Why should they hold back from attacking You or your lover? And should the Police let them? Lets not forget that hours after the Protest, there were still people yelling racist insults at him and his Girlfriend. And the Police made her leave. Zoning is not a supression of Freedom of Speech rights. It applies to all in the district and is the result of the democratic process. If it is unevenly applied it becomes injustice and perhaps a violation of Human rights. If Druisburg is a no flag zone. the Mob hould have had its flags taken away at the begining. Not just the solitary counter protestor. I do understand that Nazism and its symbols are illegal in Germany, due to a specific history. However I do disagree. I think it is better to have it out in the open, to have the Ideas directly challenged. Kind of a trite but true platitude, "Sunshine is the best disenfectant". I have faith that if you put Nazism, in an open challenge, people will reject it. Making it forbidden gives it a little bit of "cool", and gives them delusions that we are scared of them and thier ideas. The protest could have stopped, and chanted "Shame, Shame, Shame" over and over. Imagine the result of that. The protestors had literally thousands of options besides they one they took. I do recognize that in the heat of the issue the Police had to defuse the sitution. However they allowed people to hang around for hours afterwards, yelling racist insults at people, after the violence.

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