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Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 8:41:35 PM   
Gwynvyd


Posts: 4949
Status: offline 		Ok, here is the deal.. I have this damn thesis I am supposed to be writing.

It once apon a time was on FGM and the cultural and religous aspects of it, and how Westerners are taking their own beliefs and trying to outlaw it in cultures they can not possibly understand.

"Even though Female Genital Mutilation is seen as a human rights violation by the West, the West should not interfere with cultural and religious rites of other societies because we have no way of understanding the significance of these rites based on our own cultures and we can do harm to tribal societies and religions."

Was my thesis statement. But since I have to do an expository thesis ( picky picky) It has to now be
"Female genital mutilation is a religious and cultural rite practiced by various tribes across parts of Africa and the Middle East."
So I can not really argue any point. just be informative. ~ I hate that.

WHO states that FGM is
"Female genital mutilation (FGM) comprises all procedures that involve partial or total removal of the external female genitalia, or other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons."

Here are some quick facts on it again from WHO

key facts
  • Female genital mutilation (FGM) includes procedures that intentionally alter or injure female genital organs for non-medical reasons.
  • An estimated 100 to 140 million girls and women worldwide are currently living with the consequences of FGM.
  • In Africa, about three million girls are at risk for FGM annually.
  • The procedure has no health benefits for girls and women.
  • Procedures can cause severe bleeding and problems urinating, and later, potential childbirth complications and newborn deaths.
  • It is mostly carried out on young girls sometime between infancy and age 15 years.
  • FGM is internationally recognized as a violation of the human rights of girls and women.


      Here are the types of FGM according to WHO

      Procedures
      Female genital mutilation is classified into four major types:
    • Clitoridectomy: partial or total removal of the clitoris (a small, sensitive and erectile part of the female genitals) and, rarely, the prepuce (the fold of skin surrounding the clitoris) as well.
    • Excision: partial or total removal of the clitoris and the labia minora, with or without excision of the labia majora (the labia are "the lips" that surround the vagina).
    • Infibulation: narrowing of the vaginal opening through the creation of a covering seal. The seal is formed by cutting and repositioning the inner, and sometimes outer, labia, with or without removal of the clitoris.
    • Other: all other harmful procedures to the female genitalia for non-medical purposes, e.g. pricking, piercing, incising, scraping and cauterizing the genital area.
        WHO's website: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/ 


        Now this is a very emotional issue on all sides, and I am having a damn hard time not putting my  into the darn Thesis.

        What do you guys think about FGM?

        Is it a cultural rite? Or should we brush these heathens aside and show them the errors of their ways?

        I know that there are tons of complications to the procedures, and that it is a heinous thing in my eyes to do to another human being. Hell I wont stand for male circumsicon. But where do we stop? Where does it say we can over take other cultures and tell them how to live, and worship?  

        Gwyn,
        Wishing she could write her paper the orig. way instead of having to start from scratch.

        < Message edited by Gwynvyd -- 1/19/2009 8:42:32 PM >

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        RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 8:51:16 PM   
        NuevaVida


        Posts: 6707
        Joined: 8/5/2008
        Status: offline         		Often times the utensils used for FGM are old, rusted, and not very sharp metal implements which are re-used on other young girls without proper sterilization.  Infections often occur.  After the "procedure" the labia is temporarily sewn shut, causing urination to be excruciatingly painful.  Not only does the urine add to infection, but the fact that little airflow/oxygen gets to the wound.  So it's warm, moist, and a breeding ground for bacteria. 

        Because females are not considered worthy of a husband if they are NOT "altered", there is a pressure to have this done at a very young age.  In other words, you're not a real woman unless you've had this done and no man will want you.

        More and more efforts are being made to educate these women that they are worthy enough the way they were created, and such women are educating men that they can still be "wife material" if left unmutilated. 

        I don't have any cites to source, unfortunately.  A former classmate did a presentation on this very topic and the images and details she presented were so strong they stayed in my head.


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        (in reply to Gwynvyd)
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        RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 8:52:41 PM   
        Rule


        Posts: 10479
        Joined: 12/5/2005
        Status: offline
        quote:

        ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd
        should we brush these heathens aside and show them the errors of their ways?

        Yep.
         
        quote:

        ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd
        But where do we stop?

        I remember my tonsils being mutilated and me bleeding near to death and dying as a consequence. I say: any dead mutilator is a good mutilator. Death to all physicians!
        It is unfortunate that most of them genitally mutilated  females are ugly, from what I have seen.
         
        quote:

        ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd
        Where does it say we can over take other cultures and tell them how to live, and worship?  

        I say so - and that suffices.

        < Message edited by Rule -- 1/19/2009 8:53:31 PM >

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        RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 8:55:45 PM   
        Owner59


        Posts: 17033
        Joined: 3/14/2006
        From: Dirty Jersey
        Status: offline         		As someone who was mutilated(circumcised) just after birth due to western cultural superstition/stupidity,I agree.

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        (in reply to Rule)
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        RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 8:55:50 PM   
        DomKen


        Posts: 19457
        Joined: 7/4/2004
        From: Chicago, IL
        Status: offline         		To be blunt the practice infuriates me.

        FGM is based around the desire of males to control the sexuality of women without the womens consent. That it has been ingrained into the culture and is perpetuated by the women in the culture does not change that fundamental fact.

        If you examine the claims made by its practitioners they are almost all false. It is not benign. It is not motivated by any religious practice. It is simply to perpetuate the control of women by men.

        As a sexually dominant man I reject involuntary control of anyone by anyone else.

        (in reply to Gwynvyd)
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        RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 8:56:02 PM   
        TheHeretic


        Posts: 19100
        Joined: 3/25/2007
        From: California, USA
        Status: offline         		      It seems like the responses it generates in the developed countries of the world would still fit into an expository thesis.  If you feel like you can push a bit with the prof, why not write an internet article that covers your opinion, and quote yourself in the paper?

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        (in reply to Gwynvyd)
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        RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 9:05:34 PM   
        Aszhrae


        Posts: 1030
        Joined: 3/31/2008
        Status: offline         		What I remember of seeing images of it being practiced years ago was that it was in the effort to desensitize the female from satisfying her needs to masturbate which even within christianity is considered to be a sinful act. Often wonder if the practice is the result of the Jesuit influence in the area during the time when slavery was a common occurrence.
        Do not get me wrong when I stated what I did, but to convince anyone that they need to have such done to themselves in order to attract a potential male as a mate. I have to wonder if it is the males of the tribes that need to be educated. Its obvious to me they (the men and the women they convinced that it is the right thing to do) that are the ones that should be removed so as not to influence the decision making of any women. Then again, how many of our own women in western culture influenced by male decision making and accepting what they think is correct rather than listening and letting the women do their own thing.
        Many of the cultures where FGM is practiced, a dog has more rights than women. 

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        (in reply to Gwynvyd)
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        RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 9:21:54 PM   
        OneMoreWaste


        Posts: 910
        Joined: 8/24/2008
        Status: offline         		Let Darwin sort it out *shrug*

        Edit: Should have said, Darwin WILL sort it out.
        Or is.
        *How* does the birthrate in countries practicing FGM compare to that of industrialized Western nations, again?
        3:1?
        4:1?



        < Message edited by OneMoreWaste -- 1/19/2009 10:16:17 PM >

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        RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 9:33:12 PM   
        Gwynvyd


        Posts: 4949
        Status: offline
        quote:

        ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

        Often times the utensils used for FGM are old, rusted, and not very sharp metal implements which are re-used on other young girls without proper sterilization.  Infections often occur.  After the "procedure" the labia is temporarily sewn shut, causing urination to be excruciatingly painful.  Not only does the urine add to infection, but the fact that little airflow/oxygen gets to the wound.  So it's warm, moist, and a breeding ground for bacteria. 

        Because females are not considered worthy of a husband if they are NOT "altered", there is a pressure to have this done at a very young age.  In other words, you're not a real woman unless you've had this done and no man will want you.

        More and more efforts are being made to educate these women that they are worthy enough the way they were created, and such women are educating men that they can still be "wife material" if left unmutilated. 

        I don't have any cites to source, unfortunately.  A former classmate did a presentation on this very topic and the images and details she presented were so strong they stayed in my head.



        The type of FGM you are talking about is type III~ Infibulation. They do sew the now cut away vaginal area shut, leaving just enough for the husband on his wedding night to either rip through himself, or slice open with a dagger. Usually even after childbirth they are resown up.

        The cultures have pressed these women.. and mind you it is preformed by elder women of the tribe... that they are not clean, or good enough to marry with their bits attached.

        It is deeply embedded in the culture.

        hell even up until the late 1800's in the US and England Doctors were doing the type I form of FGM of removing the hood, and the clit. It was to fix womens un-natural procilvities. To stop them from Masterbating, and to make sure the uppity ones became dutiful and submissive wives.

        In the 40's 50's 60's and even 70's in the US and Europe hysterical ( read here horny) women were treated to electric shock, lobodomies, and in some extreme cases FGM to stop them from having immoral impulses.

        So this really is nothing new.. not even to our culture.. though it was condoned in the medical communites at the time.

        Gwyn

        < Message edited by Gwynvyd -- 1/19/2009 9:41:13 PM >

        _____________________________

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        Come for the boobs, stay for the brains.

        Be the kinda woman that when your feet hit the floor in the morning the Devil says "Oh shit, shes awake..."
        ~ Softandshy's "Shiney"

        (in reply to NuevaVida)
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        RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 9:35:06 PM   
        Gwynvyd


        Posts: 4949
        Status: offline
        quote:

        ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

             It seems like the responses it generates in the developed countries of the world would still fit into an expository thesis.  If you feel like you can push a bit with the prof, why not write an internet article that covers your opinion, and quote yourself in the paper?


        I tried.. she bounced it. *sighs* I am really not liking my professors this semister.

        Thanks for the ideas though.

        Gwyn

        _____________________________

        Self avowed Geek-Girl~
        Come for the boobs, stay for the brains.

        Be the kinda woman that when your feet hit the floor in the morning the Devil says "Oh shit, shes awake..."
        ~ Softandshy's "Shiney"

        (in reply to TheHeretic)
        Profile   Post #: 10
        RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 9:39:15 PM   
        Gwynvyd


        Posts: 4949
        Status: offline
        quote:

        ORIGINAL: Aszhrae

        What I remember of seeing images of it being practiced years ago was that it was in the effort to desensitize the female from satisfying her needs to masturbate which even within christianity is considered to be a sinful act. Often wonder if the practice is the result of the Jesuit influence in the area during the time when slavery was a common occurrence.
        Do not get me wrong when I stated what I did, but to convince anyone that they need to have such done to themselves in order to attract a potential male as a mate. I have to wonder if it is the males of the tribes that need to be educated. Its obvious to me they (the men and the women they convinced that it is the right thing to do) that are the ones that should be removed so as not to influence the decision making of any women. Then again, how many of our own women in western culture influenced by male decision making and accepting what they think is correct rather than listening and letting the women do their own thing.
        Many of the cultures where FGM is practiced, a dog has more rights than women. 


        This made me instantly think of boob jobs. The ones with smaller boobs get boob jobs to attract or keep a male mate. ( or to make better money stripping ) Often female friends encourage this idea of mutilation, and even hold buy so and so some boobs parties.

        So if this mutilation of our natural breasts is to keep or find a mate.. and we are subjecting ourselves to it.. and with our female friends back up.... how does this differ from FGM? It is either the breasts, or the Vagina. They are both being altered.

        Just my idea on it.

        Gwyn

        _____________________________

        Self avowed Geek-Girl~
        Come for the boobs, stay for the brains.

        Be the kinda woman that when your feet hit the floor in the morning the Devil says "Oh shit, shes awake..."
        ~ Softandshy's "Shiney"

        (in reply to Aszhrae)
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        RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 9:46:24 PM   
        popeye1250


        Posts: 18104
        Joined: 1/27/2006
        From: New Hampshire
        Status: offline         		Gwyn, I agree with you but personally I just don't care what they do in foreign countries nor do I wish my govt to get involved in things like that.

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        RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 9:57:29 PM   
        Gwynvyd


        Posts: 4949
        Status: offline
        quote:

        ORIGINAL: popeye1250

        Gwyn, I agree with you but personally I just don't care what they do in foreign countries nor do I wish my govt to get involved in things like that.


        With immigration and many people from these regions they are bringing the practices to the West. Esp. to the US.

        Many Doctors are on the fence about this practice. Do they preform it, knowing it is done in a sterile inviorment, but also knowing the health risks? Or do they send them away to be done in a family members house with a dirty knife?
        In researching this topic one comes up across so many medical journals about what should be done in the states and Europe by the medical community.

        Many Immigrants who attend college in the west begin to realize not everyone is cut like they are in the society they are now in. Many have emotional issues and pain to deal with when they realize it is not wide spread here, and they are different. ~ Some colleges have had to train their nurses, and councilors on how to deal with this.

        So it really isnt just "over there"

        I dont think we should meddle.. but what do you do when they bring it here?

        In the UK they ship their young girls away on holiday to have it done. The Dr's there will not perform it because they would lose their lic.

        Some claim assylum trying to escape this practice: http://www.amazon.com/They-Hear-You-When-Cry/dp/0385319940  Do They Hear You When You Cry? is a book about an assylum seeker, and her fight against FGM.

        Gwyn

        < Message edited by Gwynvyd -- 1/19/2009 10:01:35 PM >

        _____________________________

        Self avowed Geek-Girl~
        Come for the boobs, stay for the brains.

        Be the kinda woman that when your feet hit the floor in the morning the Devil says "Oh shit, shes awake..."
        ~ Softandshy's "Shiney"

        (in reply to popeye1250)
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        RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 10:04:07 PM   
        BadJezebel


        Posts: 138
        Joined: 4/29/2006
        Status: offline         		Years ago,  I got into a conversation with an Egyptian pharmacist.  He was a Copt (Egyptian Christian) and FGM was common in his culture (I'm not sure how common it still is so I used the past-tense).  -- He hates the result.  His wife doesn't enjoy sex so, she never wants it.  He stated that having sex with her makes him unhappy because he feels like he is masterbating with her body. 

        I'm not so sure that men want women like this.  I think that usually families are heavily involved in the mate-selection process and it isn't likely that the young men can voice these types of preferences.  Sex and sensuality aren't discussed very openly in these cultures.  I think they might want "proof" that thier new wife is ABSOLUTELY and DEFINATELY a virgin and is unlikely to stray but don't realize the consequences of FGM.    

        I think that by educating the families of both the boys and girls, headway can be made.  From my unerstanding (I don't have statistics) FGM is less common than before.   Eventually, it could fall out of favor.  Who wants a sick wife that can't enjoy her husband? 

        BTW:  The opening with a dagger --- that's REALLY not very common,  Many modern people (in urban centers -- and most do live in Urban centers)  will ask a doctor to open the labia.  In fact, In Egypt (where it is not the practice to sow women up [only to remove part or all of the clitoris]), only doctors and nurses can legally preform that "operation". 



        (in reply to Gwynvyd)
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        RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 10:08:39 PM   
        Aneirin


        Posts: 6121
        Joined: 3/18/2006
        From: Tamaris
        Status: offline         		Good  Luck Gwynvd, I hope your thread faires better than mine, but what will be interesting is the religious angle and if it causes as much resentment if it turns out  FGM is because of religious belief. Perhaps a case of different people, different beliefs, are we right to question.


        But aside from that, whatever the belief, the custom or the practice, there seems to be an element here of a suggestion that circumcision is carried out to hinder, if not destroy a person's right to pleasure themselves or receive the enjoyment due through normal sexual liasions. A pleasure that given the responses and feelings generated by sexual intercourse, humans have a natural right to, perhaps even the pleasure before the pain. The conceivement and subsequent birthing, prior payment maybe, we enjoy sex, therefore the future of our species is guaranteed. It seems in some cultures and beliefs what nature gave us to promote the survival of the human race, the pleasure received in the action, pleasure is a dirty word, procreation there being  a necessity, not a pleasure.

        Masturbation even, the act of self pleasure, straight away that to some holds negativity, we must not masturbate, it is wrong, it is evil et cetera. Masturbation is a natural act, it seems we all just know how to do it, pre programming perhaps, therefore a natural act for a natural creature, the human.

        I wonders here if there is at all a need to seperate humanity from nature, as if it was deemed human kind was above,superior to and better than nature and our natural urges and practices were seen as primitive whatever the era and culture.


        _____________________________

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        (in reply to Gwynvyd)
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        RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 10:08:56 PM   
        BadJezebel


        Posts: 138
        Joined: 4/29/2006
        Status: offline         		You don't think we should "meddle"? 

        They don't do this to consenting adults -- it's child abuse. 


        (in reply to BadJezebel)
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        RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 10:12:07 PM   
        CalifChick


        Posts: 10717
        Joined: 10/28/2007
        From: California
        Status: offline         		edited because I misunderstood why Gwyn said what she did.... I got it now...


        Cali


        < Message edited by CalifChick -- 1/19/2009 10:13:12 PM >

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        RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 10:13:12 PM   
        OneMoreWaste


        Posts: 910
        Joined: 8/24/2008
        Status: offline
        quote:

        ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd
        With immigration and many people from these regions they are bringing the practices to the West. Esp. to the US.


        Esp. the U.K.
        The US in a few more years.

        quote:


        Many Immigrants who attend college in the west begin to realize not everyone is cut like they are in the society they are now in.


        They don't realize it as soon as they get Internet access? I thought everyone in Ghana and Nigeria had a T-1 straight to their shack.

        quote:

        Some colleges ave had to train their nurses, and councilors on how to deal with this.


        Which? I hope they're not getting .fed money for that. 

        Since I don't know that I've been especially helpful, I'll give you two words- PERform and ASYlum  (for the "sub-tending-bar-in-a-diaper story, which was hawt )



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        RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 10:24:14 PM   
        popeye1250


        Posts: 18104
        Joined: 1/27/2006
        From: New Hampshire
        Status: offline         		LOL, Gwyn, as for immigration I think we need to end it.
        No shortage of people in the country anymore.
        A hundred years ago we needed it.
        We don't have any more praries to settle these days.

        _____________________________

        "But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

        (in reply to OneMoreWaste)
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        RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 10:27:14 PM   
        TheHeretic


        Posts: 19100
        Joined: 3/25/2007
        From: California, USA
        Status: offline
        quote:

        ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd
        I tried.. she bounced it.



               Silver lining then, you are going to get a good lesson in the art of setting aside your own opinion for your money this term.   Many years ago, I had a speech/debate coach who would assign a persuasive speech on a topic of our own choosing, proof it, and require you to flip the bias.  The team fundy had written hers on the importance of accepting Jesus into your life.  That was fun to watch.

              Good luck.

           

        _____________________________

        If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
        That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


        (in reply to Gwynvyd)
        Profile   Post #: 20
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