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RE: New Boys - 1/25/2009 10:05:24 AM   
PeonForHer


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In my opinion, the difficulty arises because there are some things we know that we know, and there are some things we know that we don't know. And there are some things we don't know that we know and there are some things that we don't know that we don't know.*

That reminded me of R.D. Laing's "Knots", which I read some years ago. The essential point of this head-ache inducing little book was that one partner will not understand what's missing in the other partner such that he/she cannot understand him/her. The book's full of examples like the following:

Jack thinks
he does not know
what he thinks
Jill thinks
he does not know
But Jill thinks Jack does know it.
So Jill does not know
she does not know
that Jack does not know
that Jill thinks
that Jack does know
and Jack does not know he does not know
that Jill does not know she does not know
that Jack does not know
that Jill thinks Jack knows
what Jack thinks he does not know
Jack doesn't know he knows
and he doesn't know
Jill does not know.
Jill doesn't know she doesn't know
and doesn't know
that Jack doesn't know Jill does not know.
They have no problems.
..............................................................


One would hope that least some of the problems could be solved by communicating and teaching; but, then, both can get very, very tiring if there's no desire to communicate and learn.


< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 1/25/2009 10:17:09 AM >


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RE: New Boys - 1/25/2009 10:11:07 AM   
LadyHibiscus


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Whoa, I remember that book!

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RE: New Boys - 1/25/2009 10:14:16 AM   
Lockit


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Doing better than I am LH... all I remember is Jack and Jill went to fetch a bit of water, Jack fell down and broke his crown and Jill came tumbling after... I didn't know there was a Jack and Jill that did all that stuff Peon had the patience to type out.

Lockit... lost in a maze of words about Jack's and Jill's and needs a headache tablet...

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RE: New Boys - 1/25/2009 10:23:37 AM   
LadyHibiscus


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I have this deep and hideous memory...  that's why dementia terrifies me, and I have such sympathy for it, and all those kinds of brain-into-swiss-cheese ailments!

Okay, I am pulling an example from REAL time here.  As we speak, I am chatting with a local guy.  Already he has offered to play with me and buy me a toy.  We are talking about my violently extensive toy collection, and what I am adding to it.  (Hib is a toy slut you heard it here first). 

We have not talked about our lives, the weather, current events, NOTHING but kink.  Very polite, nonsexual convo, but play related.  I am cool with it, I would love a reliable playmate, and Auntie has always helped the wanderers.  Still, it's pretty apparent that his motivations are not quite mine, right?  Even though I do feel that a kink match is essential, don't you think there is a little bit wrong with this picture?  I am not saying that enthusiasm is a bad thing, or that I am faulting this guy, he has been very polite.  In the VANILLA world, though, would a person offer an intimate experience---because that is what play is, sexual or not---and an expensive gift? 

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RE: New Boys - 1/25/2009 4:25:30 PM   
SthrnCom4t


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I talk to new boys and get approached all the time by wankers. If I'm in a good mood, or bored, I try and give them the benefit of the doubt. I think 'new' is easy to discern, as is wanker. A respectful approach is common by those who either get it, or are sincere. For all others, I'm grateful for the Delete/Block key.

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RE: New Boys - 1/25/2009 4:34:22 PM   
PeonForHer


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I've said this before, but it bears repeating, I think.

In the UK, we have the institution known as the "finishing school".  At age 18, girls whose parents can afford it will attend one of these to be taught how to be "ladies".  Cheltenham Ladies' College is one of the most famous.  Google it if you want a little titter over quaint Brit eccentricities.

It's so frequently occurred to me that the girls don't need such finishing schools - the boys do.  Things would be so much smoother between the two sexes if males as a whole learnt a few things regarding how not to act like animals.     

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RE: New Boys - 1/25/2009 4:42:58 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


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You're right.  You should start one...Mstr. Peon's Finishing School For Boys Who Want To Be Subs.  Love it!

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RE: New Boys - 1/25/2009 4:46:04 PM   
OttersSwim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan
You're right.  You should start one...Mstr. Peon's Finishing School For Boys Who Want To Be Subs.  Love it!


OH!  I want to teach "Defense Against the Wank-Arts!"  Can I?  Pluhhhhleeesssssss?


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RE: New Boys - 1/25/2009 4:49:41 PM   
PeonForHer


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No, no, no . . . all boys, vanilla or otherwise, Sylvere.  And I'm in no way qualified to teach them, either.

Do you know, until age 20 odd, I still didn't even know how to use aftershave.  I'd use about an eggcup full.  Boys quite often just don't pick up stuff like this. 

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RE: New Boys - 1/25/2009 4:49:42 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


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RE: New Boys - 1/25/2009 5:55:07 PM   
PeonForHer


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I see no cause for mirth, Sylvere.   It's no wonder I was a ship at sea with no port in sight till age 21.  Even at age 28, I was still ramming my tongue so far up against a woman's tonsils when kissing her that she'd gag.  It took a girlfriend who'd done assertiveness-training courses and had been a leader of a women's group to explain what I was doing wrong. 

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RE: New Boys - 1/25/2009 6:04:38 PM   
SthrnCom4t


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Lady H - have you tried to steer the local guy into vanilla topics, and just had no luck?


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RE: New Boys - 1/25/2009 6:25:34 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SthrnCom4t

Lady H - have you tried to steer the local guy into vanilla topics, and just had no luck?



This particular guy I am just considering for playmate material, so it's not an issue.  If we have other stuff in common, I say bonus. 

Yes, I use that traditional ask the vanilla question and see what happens test.  Or ask "what did you want to talk about?" and see what happens.  I do have chat pals that never discuss kink at all!  Of course most of them are tops, but oh well.

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RE: New Boys - 1/25/2009 7:10:02 PM   
LadyPact


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Otters, believe it or not, there are a lot of us who can tell the difference on one level or another.  Yes, I'd say at least 90% of those who term themselves as new have at least a bit of wanker or troll in them.  They are the ones who happen to find the sites often in the middle of the night or that's the time frame they generally like to send email.  They never seem to have any interest in actually learning anything, unless it has to do with their genitals.  As others have mentioned, they also happen to be rather rude.  I really don't care what site I'm on.  I'm probably not going to go into details on My sexual life or what I do with My submissive with someone that I don't know from Adam.  Of course, I'll still mention things on the boards, because you guys are special like that.  

Nine times out of ten, it isn't hard to determine who is and who isn't the genuine article.  Obviously, your Lady did a fine job of it.  I think you should give her credit where it's due.


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RE: New Boys - 1/25/2009 7:43:00 PM   
DrkJourney


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I see no cause for mirth, Sylvere.   It's no wonder I was a ship at sea with no port in sight till age 21.  Even at age 28, I was still ramming my tongue so far up against a woman's tonsils when kissing her that she'd gag.  It took a girlfriend who'd done assertiveness-training courses and had been a leader of a women's group to explain what I was doing wrong. 


Gives Peon a big ole Texas {{{{hug}}}}}

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RE: New Boys - 1/25/2009 10:16:22 PM   
ShaktiSama


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*shrug* I'm just going to ditto the many women who say that unless you are new the planet Earth, rather than just to BDSM, there is some behavior which is simply inexcusable.

It's entirely possible that many men send emails to a profile based on the color of the name and the picture because they're "new". But newness is not really an excuse for being that careless and stupid. Anyone capable of reading the English language is capable of reading a profile; these men just don't think that a woman is worth the bother it takes to read the words she's typed.

Similarly, there's nothing about being new that makes you try to lie to a woman about whether you are single/available.

What's really missing in the men who are condemned so frequently on this forum is not experience, it's common decency and common sense. The vast majority of dommes I have known would go very far out their way to help and guide a new boy who had the right qualities: honest, sincere, giving, polite.

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RE: New Boys - 1/25/2009 11:35:02 PM   
UPSG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mummyman321
So from my perspective, those who have just entered into the lifestyle, I do not believe know what they are seeking yet. And maybe some learn much faster than others. For me it took every bit of 5 years to fully understand my wants, desires, and needs.


While I have not entered into the BDSM lifestyle, I think your post probably tags me accurately. I put down slave in my profile because I'm not in BDSM but I thought that better suited me than say... "dominant."

Reading through this board I've started to get the feeling that what I might think I desire is not really what I desire. For me, I wanted to see what being a "submissive" or a "sexual slave"* meant or could mean erotically, in full tilt, and from sources other than my own mind and imaginations. I mean, the submissive fetish thoughts I have are morally corrupted anyways. To be on knees, licking some chicks boot, and obeying to give another guy a blow job is morally corrupted. I wasn't absent every Sunday Mass, I'm not illiterate and I can't claim "invincible ignorance." Nonetheless, the desire for my fetish, the delights involved (or imagined) lead me down a path, I'm fully cognizant of, is morally unorthodox. But it seems most thing morally unorthodox are the most wickedly fun. But then again, that could just be all in my imagination.

Reading through the board, most of which I don't comment on, I've gained the impression women by-and-large are not as perverted as men - ok, well lets just say me - but I've also gotten the impression that large, perhaps most, women get involved as doms to exploit submissive men finacially and in terms of labor, with little to no regard of giving them any sexual gratification. That's my impression. Wanting to learn something other than from my own personal fantasies, I was open to the idea that a male slave should put both his Mistress kink and her sexual gratification first, hell, even her not wanting sex or kink at whatever moment. This actually made sense to me. If you are going to commit to be a sexualized slave, you are still a slave, and hence you are duty bound to do as your told. If you're a "good slave" you try to please. This is what my mind tells me anyways. So, in the doms defense, I found male slaves or subs PMing them begging to be put in dresses, missing the point of being enslaved. I figure a slaves does what he's told, be that to put on jeans, paint a wall, or put on a dress and wig. It's up to his owner(s) wants or amusements at the moment.

However, I kept reading tiny things, little things that made me suspect many women were, or are, out to just get some submissive men to pay them money or build them a new porch. The dude? Nothing. Not a rub on the ass. Nada. If being a male slave means laying cement for some woman's (herself not entirely dominant, but partially fragile) driveway, then taking her to dinner and being chivalrous gentelman, under the condition that maybe in a year or two she might let you kiss the inside of her thigh, then I guess being a male slave is not what I really desire no matter what imaginations and perverted fantasies I had in my head.

So, this has been a learning experience. Not a bad learning experience, just a leraning experience.

It's probably for my own good anyways, because my own slave fantasies were so male disgraceful that doing them would even scare me. lol. I think for my own health and sanity, I stay steady with my original goal, finishing school, and knock on wood, one day become a surgeon in one of the medical specialties, and head Southward to Latin America (knock on wood, I'll keep myself out of trouble down there too).




*And I say sexual because I be damned if I'm going to become a non-sexual slave like all those generations of men that toiled in company mines - in debited  to the company store. I'm not going to recreate that American story for some woman just because she likes to be called goddess (the new company store). I mean I do have some street in me so game does recognize game.

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RE: New Boys - 1/26/2009 6:11:32 AM   
ShaktiSama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG

*And I say sexual because I be damned if I'm going to become a non-sexual slave like all those generations of men that toiled in company mines - in debited  to the company store. I'm not going to recreate that American story for some woman just because she likes to be called goddess (the new company store). I mean I do have some street in me so game does recognize game.



Just for your information, the "story" that most dommes are not willing to re-create are the generations of women who have lived and died in sexual service to men. That's been going on for thousands of years now, and yeah--some of us are pretty much done with it.

Yes, I think you've had an important learning experience--you've learned that your fetishes and fantasies are all about you. Congratulations. You've learned that you are really not inclined to serve or to please anyone but yourself--you have no urge to earn physical intimacy by being lovable to a woman, you just think you're entitled to it.

You're off to a good start. You know what you want from a dominant woman and you know what you're willing to give in exchange: you know that you want and expect her to cater to your fantasies and you are resentful at the thought that you might actually have to do something useful or helpful to make her life better in return. Excellent! You, and all male submissives like you, are more than welcome to hire a professional to service your needs, or you can try to live vanilla and forget about all those "male disgraceful" fantasies that get your homophobic little panties into such a knot.

What you apparently haven't learned is that there is nothing morally wrong with your masochistic or sexual needs, and that they can be met by a caring person in a mutually happy and satisfying relationship if you are willing to treat women as your friends, rather than as the company store. Good luck with your journey, darlin'. Sounds like you're going to be on the road a long, long time.

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RE: New Boys - 1/26/2009 7:38:29 AM   
OttersSwim


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I think Ms. Shakti has the right of it UPSG...take another look.  I think you might also want to examine the concept and definitons you hold of "morally corrupt" and realize that the concept of what is moral varies by society and individuals within that society.  If you do indeed consider BDSM acts as "morally corrupt" then this is likely not gonna be a path that you want to follow.

As for your concept that there is/should be something "due" in exchange for service and that something due should be sexual...think again.  Giving is an act of self.  We choose to give something to someone.  I believe that if we do so, we should do it without expectation of return.  I have found that if you choose wisely, the people upon whom you choose to give gifts of time, energy, love, or resources...they will reciprocate from themselves back to you...and it can become a cycle that engenders affection, friendship, and even love.  

There is a line from a book I like which says "Accepting the gift honors the giver."  If we can live by this rule and give with no expectation of return...holding in our hearts only that in accepting the gift, the recipient honors us and shows that they appreciate our efforts, then I believe that we will never lack for friends, or love or affection in our lives.

If you decide that this lifestyle is not for you, then good journeys to you. 




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RE: New Boys - 1/26/2009 8:04:58 AM   
Lockit


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Some people will see only what they wish to see based on what they have concluded, no matter evidence that goes against that opinion.  Until one is willing to listen and learn... a teachable spirit... they will hold to their opinion, right or wrong or in-between.

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