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UPSG -> RE: New Boys (1/31/2009 9:12:22 PM)
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ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
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ORIGINAL: UPSG
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ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
Anyone not of the elites of any society has routinely been used by those in power. That seems to be part of the human equation, fair or not.
Within those classes though women, on average, were given less legal, social, and economic power so in that sense yes women as a group have been more oppressed than men.
By-and-large I would agree with you. I think on one hand, given the complexity of life, one can risk over-generalizing about that. I think it would be kind of like me asserting Black people have been more oppressed than white people throughout the sum of world history. That's a big leap of assumption.
Supposedly - and this is what scholars and historians claim for whatever it's worth (you know they are prone to change their minds) - men and women were relatively equal (egalitarian society) in "tribal" level societies (hunters and gathers basically). But from the chiefdom level that declined a bit, and at the "civilization" level males gained almost total power.
My personal opinion, from my own personal reading, is that privilege has historically had more to do with one's socio-economic class than their sex. I'm sure this is not a premises that would be popular with feminist ideology or literature but it is my opinion.
Putting aside Athens or the Republic of Venice etc... democracy (and the other two were never pure democracies) is relatively new to human civilizations. Even in the United States not all White men (let alone Blacks or Indians) could vote originally. This came to change and it took longer for women to win suffrage. However, a woman having a "good" husband was arguably no worse than a male sub or slave having a "good" mistress.
See, this is actually I a subject I do study professionally.
I'll point out that within your above examples you lists ways that women have been given less value in societies, economic systems and legal systems. The very fact that democracy gave legal rights to some men but no women demonstrates that in the USA -- other nations have difference experiences.
You can't honestly compared Blacks to women. Blacks and Whites are not categories which cross all cultures and all time period -- men and women are such categories just as age categories are.
That said, throughout history a woman within the highest levels of her society, you are correct that this was a "class" thing if you expand that definition, would have more social and economic power than a man from the lower classes. Legal rights varied widely. I cannot think of more than a handful of cultures where within a class the man and woman had equal value.
Individual families and subcultures might value other criteria more than biological sex but that has not been common.
Finding these counter examples is very important for it demonstrates that human beings are varied but these example do not counter general social, political, economic, and other trends. They offer proof that none of this is natural but merely cultural and as such things can be changed -- for positive or negative.
Can someone tell me again how this entire discussion turned from the OP? I'm seeing how it deals with his concerns or experiences.
The Emit Till situation - which happened in the 1950's - does not suggest White-American women were denied social protection nor protection under the law.
Democracy is really a tiresome issue because few Americans really have any concept of what it means. And furthermore the United States has always been undergoing a process of becoming more democratized. At onetime in the United States impoverished, White-American, that did not own land, were denied the right to vote.
Yes, women have been discriminated against in a systematic way, but arguably so has much of male mankind. When in human history have most men (males) been given opportunity for upward mobility? Few to none. Like women they were born in, raised in, toiled in, and died in their socio-economic class from birth.
Perhaps the European exploration and colonization around the world began to alter some of that. A Castilian half starving in what is now Spain, could travel to the New World, murder and pillage like La Cosa Nostra, and make his his fortune. The sword and big balls were needed. But even in such enterprises we find female Spaniards fighting with sword to steal and earn her wealth like her male compatriots. We find this same thing with Southern Italian women today in the Comarra.
The issue of brutality tends to center around a woman *cooking.* Well hell, most great chefs are male. Having worked as a cook in more than one restuarant I can tell you that it's worse than cooking in a home - taking your time. There is nothing wromng with cooking. In fact I would rather be a house-husband, fuck, cook, send the kids off to school, watch tv, clean an already fairly clean house, than go off to work in some coal mine to kill myself slowly of lung disease by the time I'm in my 50's or 60's.
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