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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/28/2009 5:53:58 PM   
ModeratorEleven


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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/29/2009 12:42:27 AM   
JustDarkness


Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline 		the good thing is Wilders (the guy in question) gets lots of votes now..more then he already had.

The problem is a minister can say his thoughts in parlement...but not on the streets.
Wilders....says..if I tell different stories outside...I will be lying to the people.....well....good point..

Dutch politicians have a little problem with other religions and colours. They find it eassier to blame the dutch then to ever point to an other group....because..."what might the world think" .
For example we let all kinds of extremist preachers preach in mosques.........but if some one else says similar...you get arrested. It is all pretty double.

So..we are looking forward to this case...because it will just help Wilders...and not calm the people down.

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 1/29/2009 12:47:20 AM >

(in reply to kittinSol)
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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/29/2009 12:52:24 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

I honestly don't understand what you're getting at here.  Can you explain to me?



The film in question takes the Koran, and interspaces clips of terrorists with extracts from the book.

My question is would you consider a film portraying every Israeli as a terrorist, and quoting the Torah as proof, acceptable  ?

Personally speaking every such film preaching hate needs to be banned. I dont see that as curtailing  freedom of speech.


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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/29/2009 12:57:12 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		I would question the integrity and ethics of anyone who thought that promoting any kind of hate properganda is acceptable regardless of it's victim.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/29/2009 1:13:49 AM   
GoddessTeaze


Posts: 1125
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From: The Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1
One would think that a country as open minded as Holland would be a beacon for freedom of speech, but apparently it doesn't apply if you make a movie against Islam.  Muslims have found the short film Fitna by Geert Wilders offensive, and have taken the issue to the courts, who at first decided to drop the charges, but after pressure from Muslim groups have reinstated them.

What do you know about this Geert Wilders?
Do you know what his politics believes are?
How he discriminates, towards muslims,
and not many other foreigners are right in his eyes really.

I believe you should inform yourself properly
before speaking about this.

Creating Fear & Hatred
that's what he is after,
and work on people's feelings that way.

He is a true sad sad creature.

Since We all have to live together in this World.
Hatred aint the answer.

What are you afraid of ?


GoddezzT`


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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/29/2009 1:20:29 AM   
JustDarkness


Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline 		But Teaze..he is just saying what people think. Not always in nice political words...but at least he is clear in what he says.
Look at his votes....look how other political parties adopt his visions suddenly afther they lost votes to him.
Indeed like other politicians he has his crap moments too, but he also has some good facts.

I am not right or left or in the middle......but I hate the sweet talking of the other politicians.

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/29/2009 3:13:56 AM   
NeedToUseYou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

One would think that a country as open minded as Holland would be a beacon for freedom of speech, but apparently it doesn't apply if you make a movie against Islam.  Muslims have found the short film Fitna by Geert Wilders offensive, and have taken the issue to the courts, who at first decided to drop the charges, but after pressure from Muslim groups have reinstated them.

If you think this won't happen in the US, think again.  A publisher refused to print a book it paid $100k for called "The Jewel of Medina", because it might be offensive. 
And anyone remember the Danish cartoons?  




I found it on Google Video. I wouldn't say it is hate filled, rather it is showing acts of hate done in the name of a book and its words. Whether those people that do those acts are perverting the intent of the book or not, I'm not sure as I've not read it. I need to though, not for enlightenment or anything like that but to judge for myself the context.

However, I see little reason to IMO, not show that movie, and that would go for if it was about any religion, unfortunately for Islam, they seem to be in the modern age the sole religion, that has SOME followers that blow themselves up in marketplaces, chant praising their god while cutting heads off people. Right behind them would be Israel, and behind them would be the US hardcore Christians. Though, there are leaps and bounds of separation in extremism.

If some people have a bad view of Islam that is probably because almost monthly their is some juvenile protest over something that no other religion would protest over, or at least to the same degree. Protest over cartoons, killings over books, death threats over movies.

Anyway, if one was going to ban "Art" for promoting Hate, I would have most of the Holy books of all religions well in front of that little movie portraying a interpretation of a religion. Unless I'm mistaken no one has killed anyone for criticizing the movie.

Is it the incitement to hate that matters, or the size of the mob promoting it. If it is the former, then one has no case in banning that piece, as many more are incited by religion. If it is the size of the mob, well, then that is no basis for law at least it shouldn't be.

And to contradict someone else, Protecting the right offend is the only part of free speech that is worth anything, it takes no effort to protect compliments, or lip service. LOL, that is the whole basis of freedom of speech. Especially in the context of a movie, one has to actually go through effort to watch. It's not a group of people yelling and screaming at you.

Anyway, I guess I don't get it, and thank god I don't.


(in reply to MissSepphora1)
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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/29/2009 9:45:29 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

Anyway, I guess I don't get it, and thank god I don't.


Which is exactly what the man is aiming for.   Those that do not bother to study for themselves and instead are like a flock of gatherers at a church who have never read the bible, who have no idea how to read hebrew or any other text and who listen and follow like sheep, the preacher.
 
Google are banning it as fast as it is going up.  This isn't about free speach, this is about the ability to misrepresent an entire religion based on a handful of factions and fundementalist groups.  You call that art? I call it propaganda when there is no impartiality.
 
And yes, really, read the text yourself.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/29/2009 11:50:02 AM   
JustDarkness


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quote:

is about the ability to misrepresent an entire religion based on a handful of factions and fundementalist groups.


perhaps that is wrong..but what I dislike more and enough dutch with me...is the fact that islamic world is doing shit to prevent crap in their own ranks.
They just act like victims and nicely invite all kind of shit Imams that preach hate and other crap stuff...which I can't mention here.
People get sick and tired of that.


(edit on MOD request)

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 1/29/2009 12:44:55 PM >

(in reply to RCdc)
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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/29/2009 12:50:19 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		I understand D.
However the Muslim community doesn't just sit by and say nothing.  Al Jazerra has always been vocal about their apprehensions of AQ.  MPAC was very vocal about condemning AQ and stating that they did not speak for all muslims. Personally I believe it is often down to media representation - they are picky about which facts are printed.
 
Thing is this video isn't a fair representation.  It is propaganda.  Had it been video documenting islam in a less than negative light using fairness evenif it was biased, it could be stomached and then it becomes about free speach.  But it was no different to the rhetoric that fundemental AQ groups were producing which are propaganda.  This was disgusting - and aimed at those people who have never read the koran or even know the history or teachings of Muhammad.  It's full of crap - the kind that fundemental groups feed disillusioned young men and women of muslim faith who fall for the same thing that this video represents.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/29/2009 3:13:19 PM   
drone181


Posts: 2
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline 		Maybe this is just me, but I kinda like the idea of being able to spew whatever horrible screwed up stuff I want without the fear of repercussions (short of clear and present danger). 

If I want to make a horrible anti-Canadian film, then by all means, I believe I should have the right to do so.  At the same time, Canadians should have the right to respond and debunk my horrible film of lies.  Free exchange of ideas, and civilized debate should be the cornerstone of any open society.  The answer to hate speech should not be banning it, or answering it with more hatred, but defeating it on the face value of its truth.

Or something fluffy like that. Regardless, I do not believe that Dutch are doing the right thing here.

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/29/2009 4:26:47 PM   
scarlethiney


Posts: 492
Joined: 8/22/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Instead of writing about it, why aren't you out doing something about it?  Isn't that the advice you gave us all the other day?





 


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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/29/2009 4:29:46 PM   
scarlethiney


Posts: 492
Joined: 8/22/2008
Status: offline 		 
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Excuse me, I can't speak for slaveboy and philo, but I'm not a liberal, I'm a pinko commie-loving lame ass leftie. Thank you.



for commie-loving lame ass lefties!



_____________________________

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/29/2009 5:37:04 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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From: None of your business
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

Anyway, I guess I don't get it, and thank god I don't.


Which is exactly what the man is aiming for.   Those that do not bother to study for themselves and instead are like a flock of gatherers at a church who have never read the bible, who have no idea how to read hebrew or any other text and who listen and follow like sheep, the preacher.

Google are banning it as fast as it is going up.  This isn't about free speach, this is about the ability to misrepresent an entire religion based on a handful of factions and fundementalist groups.  You call that art? I call it propaganda when there is no impartiality.

And yes, really, read the text yourself.

the.dark.


What I don't get is why anyone believes a religion should be offered more protections than any other group.

And what I call that movie is an opinion and interpretation of reality as he sees it.

I'm on about page 3 of the Koran, and thus far it's nothing but hate, hate for all that don't believe, that doesn't sound much different than what you are saying this movie says about believers. Though that is to be expected the older the text is the more vile it is in all religions. I will read it all over the following months maybe it mellows, and stops saying all non-believers will be tormented for eternity, and are equivalent to being deaf dumb and blind, I've  read most of the Bible at one point or another, so I guess I'll read this thing to.

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/29/2009 7:17:24 PM   
MissSepphora1


Posts: 669
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline 		Ahh I see what you mean.  During the Lebanon war, I had a video of all the things Israel did in Lebanon on my MySpace.  I did have some bias.  But yes, I got called every name in the book.  And I stood up for my freedom of speech, but all anyone wanted to say was anti-semite.
I don't agree with the double standard in free speech, that you can say whatever you want as long as it doesn't offend anyone.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

I honestly don't understand what you're getting at here.  Can you explain to me?



The film in question takes the Koran, and interspaces clips of terrorists with extracts from the book.

My question is would you consider a film portraying every Israeli as a terrorist, and quoting the Torah as proof, acceptable  ?

Personally speaking every such film preaching hate needs to be banned. I dont see that as curtailing  freedom of speech.



(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/29/2009 7:29:32 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
 
Thing is this video isn't a fair representation.  It is propaganda.  Had it been video documenting islam in a less than negative light using fairness evenif it was biased, it could be stomached and then it becomes about free speach. 

 
 
     So, you aren't really clear on how the concept of how free speech works, are you?

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/29/2009 8:01:49 PM   
MichiganHeadmast


Posts: 726
Joined: 8/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

     So, you aren't really clear on how the concept of how free speech works, are you?


A lot of folks here are quite clueless about free speech.  They whine about attacks on porn (rightfully so) but become quislings when it comes to political speech.  Really got it backwards.

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/29/2009 9:15:25 PM   
MissSepphora1


Posts: 669
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline 		Okay, let me get this straight.  It's okay for Muslims to say they are going to take over Europe.  It's okay for Muslims to threaten the lives of politicians in Holland.  It's okay for Muslims to say they will cut off the heads of the infidels.  All of that is okay.  But if someone puts it all together in one short film, it is hate speech and propaganda?


quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessTeaze

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1
One would think that a country as open minded as Holland would be a beacon for freedom of speech, but apparently it doesn't apply if you make a movie against Islam.  Muslims have found the short film Fitna by Geert Wilders offensive, and have taken the issue to the courts, who at first decided to drop the charges, but after pressure from Muslim groups have reinstated them.

What do you know about this Geert Wilders?
Do you know what his politics believes are?
How he discriminates, towards muslims,
and not many other foreigners are right in his eyes really.

I believe you should inform yourself properly
before speaking about this.

Creating Fear & Hatred
that's what he is after,
and work on people's feelings that way.

He is a true sad sad creature.

Since We all have to live together in this World.
Hatred aint the answer.

What are you afraid of ?


GoddezzT`


(in reply to GoddessTeaze)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/29/2009 9:39:48 PM   
OneSickFck


Posts: 18
Joined: 10/5/2008
Status: offline 		Although I find it reprehensible that Wilders is being prosecuted for his film, I find it VERY hard to consider Wilders a “champion” of free speech. Lest anyone forget, he advocates BANNING the Koran:

http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/3094

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8McIz0ejukg&NR=1

(in reply to MissSepphora1)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/29/2009 9:41:27 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

But if someone puts it all together in one short film, it is hate speech and propaganda?




             I don't care if it is nothing but the worst sort of hate-speech and propaganda.  Right or not.  Appropriate or not.  Going to possibly get his ass killed or not.  If speech is free, nobody gets to pick and choose what they like.  Free speech in reaction and response is strongly encouraged.

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to MissSepphora1)
Profile   Post #: 40
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