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ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama
Prior to the establishment of a solid relationship, when a man offers me resources in courtship--a meal, a movie, a thoughtful little gift--it means he wants me to like him, and possibly consider him "relationship" material. Or at least he wants me to consider him a good prospect for a play session or a shag. Whether I do or not is not determined by the nature of the gift, it's determined by my feelings for the man and whether we are compatible. He's not buying me--he's expressing himself.

Given all other things being equal, however, a man who offers me resources or a gift during courtship will always have an advantage. Especially over the creep who is jealously guarding his wallet and eyeing me suspiciously over his tumbler of iced tea at our dutch lunch at the cheapest restaurant in town, trying to determine whether I am "worthy" of any further investment. Nothing brings out my "Go fuck yourself" index faster than a "submissive" who starts off with an attitude that I am worthless until I "prove" otherwise.

Being bitchy about having to compete with men who offer a woman a gift is like being bitchy about men who offer a woman a compliment, a ride home, a shoulder to cry on, etc.. Yes, the guy who offers to escort her safely to her car outside the club, or makes any other gesture that demonstrates interest in her well-being and happiness, is always going to win in the end. (Unless she's a self-destructive emotional masochist who needs to date an endless string of self-involved assholes to gratify her self-sadistic urges, in which case, hey! You cheap bastards probably have a shot.)

In general though--yes. It's a shame that men who are generous, charming, caring, gallant and demonstrative get all the chicks. Boo-freaking-hoo. If you haven't got any money, I guess you'd best stop feeling sorry for yourself and work on the charming, caring, and gallant part! These are things that don't cost a dime and are far more strongly mate-selective than money in the majority of cases--regardless of what the bitter "dommes are all whores" crowd may say.

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ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama
Can't speak for others. Speaking for myself--when I have the money and resources available and want to invest them in something mutually pleasurable with someone I care about--including my submissive--I do it.

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And I do it without worrying about whether my friend or partner is a "gold digger" or "using me". Don't know why it is too much to ask that a submissive man do the same for me, and really don't care. Cheap, wallet-clutching guys are a turn-off. Period.

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Prior to the establishment of a solid relationship, when a man offers me resources in courtship--a meal, a movie, a thoughtful little gift--it means he wants me to like him, and possibly consider him "relationship" material. Or at least he wants me to consider him a good prospect for a play session or a shag. Whether I do or not is not determined by the nature of the gift, it's determined by my feelings for the man and whether we are compatible. He's not buying me--he's expressing himself.

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Given all other things being equal, however, a man who offers me resources or a gift during courtship will always have an advantage. Especially over the creep who is jealously guarding his wallet and eyeing me suspiciously over his tumbler of iced tea at our dutch lunch at the cheapest restaurant in town, trying to determine whether I am "worthy" of any further investment. Nothing brings out my "Go fuck yourself" index faster than a "submissive" who starts off with an attitude that I am worthless until I "prove" otherwise.

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 Because she's making an effort to show that she likes you. I mean, seriously--duh.

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Being bitchy about having to compete with men who offer a woman a gift is like being bitchy about men who offer a woman a compliment, a ride home, a shoulder to cry on, etc

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Yes, the guy who offers to escort her safely to her car outside the club, or makes any other gesture that demonstrates interest in her well-being and happiness, is always going to win in the end.

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In general though--yes. It's a shame that men who are generous, charming, caring, gallant and demonstrative get all the chicks. Boo-freaking-hoo. If you haven't got any money, I guess you'd best stop feeling sorry for yourself and work on the charming, caring, and gallant part! These are things that don't cost a dime and are far more strongly mate-selective than money in the majority of cases--regardless of what the bitter "dommes are all whores" crowd may say.

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ORIGINAL: undergroundsea
The discussion has not been directed at what other men are doing but at a demand that, amongst different possibilities, might be driven by selfish, opportunistic motives or by a sense of entitlement that suggests the giver is of lesser value. In an environment where there are known to be many who are out to exploit financially, how can one know what the motivations are of someone who seems to be so materially focused?

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ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
undergroundsea, oddly enough quite a few guys tend to approach me on CM and almost try to force donations on me, despite me not asking and there are profiles who ask for it.

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ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

Miscellaneous thoughts follow.

There are some matters that affect others with which I cannot relate through direct experience. However, I can sometimes come closer to understanding how they feel by considering a similar example. I cannot directly understand the frustration about feeling as if I am being sexually used but can understand the frustration about feeling as if I am being financially used. By reflecting on how I feel turned off when I feel a woman is focused only on my finances even though I recognize it a part of the whole, I can better understand how a woman might feel turned off when a man is focused only on her appearance or sexuality even though she makes an effort to enhance it. I think LittleSarbonn touches the same point.

I think this principle can also help women understand how some of the men feel about the matter at hand. Just as some women are turned off by self-focused lists of what a man wants done sexually, some men are turned by lists of what a woman wants him to purchase.

I can also extend this principle to parallels between financial submission and pampering, and service-based submission and pampering. While I would feel foolish if I allowed myself to be financially exploited or had, I can see that another who wishes to act this way is not necessarily being foolish. I enjoy service, which might seem exploitive to others but does not feel so to me. The same principle can hold for another who enjoys financial submission or pampering. The mind works however it does.

I do not think it odd if I see a profile where a woman says she likes to be generally pampered or pampered with attentiveness, and the attentive pampering in which I participate does have a financial component to it. I should then be able to extend the same acceptance to a woman who says she likes to be financially pampered. I have reflected on what holds me back. I think it is a combination of reasons. I think thoughts of how money or greed can motivate people raises my guard. Also, women I have directly encountered who presented self as those who liked to be pampered with gifts struck as me as persons who were driven by greed and narcissism, and for whom hustling via seduction was a sport. I imagine this experience adds to the guard that is otherwise raised from sensibility alone. This matter about feeling turned off for being used disrespectfully also holds for being exploited for labor. However, it is a smaller issue because I see lesser likelihood for it in comparison and my wiring allows a greater threshhold of tolerance there. Still, this reasoning allows me to see that there can be scenarios of financial pampering (wanting to give or receive) which comes from similar places from which comes attentive pampering (wanting to give or receive).

This defensiveness I describe is not without reason. I often say some rants serve a purpose even though they create a divisive air. They bring out issues that can be of general concern and if an issue keeps resurfacing, it is more likely to be a general concern. My collective experience with a few in person encounters, what I see in profiles, and what I see in some websites (femdomme society--if any of you are members, you know) justifies the defensiveness of which I speak. There are many women who do seek to financially exploit men from a place of disregard. If someone here does not see any basis for why some men are defensive or frustrated about the financial issue, in my opinion such a person is not seeing the whole picture.

It is wise for each men and women to not allow the noise of that that detracts to sabotage prospects that do not deserve to be grouped with the noise.

Cheers,

Sea

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ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
As for financial domination, not my cup of tea but I really don't have anything against it, as long as it is honest and upfront.

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Additionally, how about those **** who bug me for weeks if they can give me a present, I keep telling them "Thank you, but no thank you!" and they won't let go, hence I started the Amazon wish list, how "honest" would you call those guys? Especially the ones who keep writing and writing and begging to accept a present only to disappear when you in fact would accept something very small?

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ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama


Given all other things being equal, however, a man who offers me resources or a gift during courtship will always have an advantage. Especially over the creep who is jealously guarding his wallet and eyeing me suspiciously over his tumbler of iced tea at our dutch lunch at the cheapest restaurant in town, trying to determine whether I am "worthy" of any further investment. Nothing brings out my "Go fuck yourself" index faster than a "submissive" who starts off with an attitude that I am worthless until I "prove" otherwise.

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ORIGINAL: undergroundsea


Sure, being honest and upfront about it leaves little room for objection. To me, actions speak louder than words, and motivations speak louder yet.

I have friends who are professional dommes and some likely engage in financial domination--I expect they get approached plenty. I have at least one friend who is not a professional domme who engages in financial domination and I consider this woman to be a very compassionate person and amongst my closets friends. Thus, I know that not every woman who is into financial domination comes from a bad place. However, I am certain--and I have seen firsthand--that there are women who engage in financial domination where the motivations are not as benign and come from a place of disrespect. While the end result might be the same as what might be had with a more genuine woman, the difference in motivations of the two types (even if it does not affect me and the men are getting what they want) does make a difference for me. The first case I can tolerate and support. In the latter case, I tolerate it but do not support it.

I don't direct tendency for this behavior at women specifically. I think it is a behavior tendency we would see distributed across humans.

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Unfair comparison, I think, Lady C.  Financial domination is fine in most people's eyes so long as it's up front.  I think the problem lies with those who aren't up front about that; instead, dressing up demands for tributes, gifts, etc, etc, as 'just those things that any true gentleman would give'.   Neither a 'gentleman' or a 'lady' is supposed to be either greedy or selfish.  I think most of us know what constitutes greed and selfishness, most of the time, between partners.  Though, admittedly, things become very . . . .curious in the case of people who actually want to be financially dominated.  That is a an ethical headache all of its own . . .

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ORIGINAL: AAkasha
When I read all this, I just see a very logical "need to make sure I am not financially taken advantage of"  as an excuse to be cheap. Why not rely on your good sixth sense to avoid being taken advantage of rather than using it as an excuse to have an iron grip on your wallet.

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

in the past I have helped somebody by something rather similar, the guy got himself into a massive overdraft due to being a bit too addicted to booking sessions with pro dommes, I put him on a budget and took his card though not his PIN, but each and every time he wanted to get money out, he had to tell me what it was for. 3 months later his finances look a lot healthier, he has a grip on his life and is budgeting his sessions to a point where he can afford them. I told him he can take me out to dinner and buy me a pair of nice leather gloves as a thank you, though that might be considered FD by some.

That was a very honourable and helpful thing for you to have done for that man, Lady C.  (I probably couldn't have resisted the dinner and leather gloves either - though I expect our respective tastes in gloves would be rather different.)  But what happens with those men if they get into the clutches of true greed-dommes?  It doesn't bear thinking about. 

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ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

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ORIGINAL: AAkasha
When I read all this, I just see a very logical "need to make sure I am not financially taken advantage of"  as an excuse to be cheap. Why not rely on your good sixth sense to avoid being taken advantage of rather than using it as an excuse to have an iron grip on your wallet.

When I read your post, I just see another attempt to take a swipe as you have done in your post history with me consistently.

But perhaps I am wrong.

My posts are right there for you to see. I am not clear about how you arrive at your conclusion. Can you quote the specific text and explain how it leads to what you perceive rather than simply making the statement you make?

I have identified the reasons for why I object to being at the receiving end of such expectations. Can you tell me why my reasoning is flawed?

You still have not explained the double standard you extend to your friend.

If we can make statements without giving any explanation of substance, then I read in your posts that you are an agent of a radical conservative movement who disapproves of BDSM and is here to keep tabs on our conversations and sow seeds of controversy. There! How'd I do?

I have not had any hard run-ins and my judgment has worked fairly well. Just as you object to men who come to you with a list of what they want done without dabbling in it and use your sense to stay away, I object to women who wish to exploit or are gold-diggers even if I use my sense to stay away.

Cheers,

Sea