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RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/9/2009 1:01:28 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 4u2spoil

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

All the bleeding heart sympathy seems a bit misplaced, call me callused, but I feel far more for kids in 3rd world countries struggling for survival than guys who can't say "Stop, that's it, you are taking the piss!"
 
I don't know, though.  What about those guys with low incomes, families . . .  And not just ones who can't say "no" to being ripped off but who can't be stopped from eagerly emptying their wallets . .  Hell, I'm just glad I don't have that affliction (because 'affliction' is how I see it). 



Do you honestly see financial slave addicts outnumbering African orphans or Cambodian kids who live in landfills? I suspect they exist, but I don't think it's some epidemic.



I wouldn't go down that road of reasoning, 4u.  Let's face it, famines, for instance, occur in Africa with depressing regularity yet they don't make the front pages of most Western newspapers.  What people should care about, and what they actually do care about, are two entirely different things.   

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RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/9/2009 2:05:52 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
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Status: offline 		It's just the way things are.   . . . . The norm . . . .

Oh no, 4u, an even more slippery slope of reasoning!   That line has been used to justify males' oppression of women for centuries - it's the enemy of all social change!  (How many 'vanilla' GFs who wanted to be topped have told me I just should be dominant in bed because that was the norm for men and women in bed.  *Growl*.  No, I don't want or expect sympathy - just airing an old gripe.)

Personally, I don't have a care about the danger of being ripped off by a woman (I can see that sort a mile off) and I don't think any partner - or potential partner - has ever griped about my being a tightwad.  Some have even called me a 'gentleman', believe it or not. *Glow of pride*    Old hat, done and dusted, for me. 

This is what interests me more - the question of how men feel about women who have more money than the men they're getting together with, and who want to spend it on them.  In that respect I was thinking again, last night, about Shakti's quote, which I altered above by two letters (in bold):

Given all other things being equal, however, a woman who offers me resources or a gift during courtship will always have an advantage. 

I said above that I wouldn't want to admit to being that sort of man.  (Actually, the 'gift' bit doesn't bother me - it's the 'resources' bit that does.)  The truth is that I'd find dealing with a woman like that - one who's much richer than me, and wants to show it, constantly - downright awkward.  It's happened before, in fact.  So does my awkwardness make me a gentleman, or does it make me a sexist?  Supposing you were to meet a man you really fell for - but he were to balk at forming a relationship with you because you were markedly better off than he was? 





< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 2/9/2009 2:07:44 AM >

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RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/9/2009 4:33:51 AM   
4u2spoil


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

It's just the way things are.   . . . . The norm . . . .

Oh no, 4u, an even more slippery slope of reasoning!   That line has been used to justify males' oppression of women for centuries - it's the enemy of all social change!  (How many 'vanilla' GFs who wanted to be topped have told me I just should be dominant in bed because that was the norm for men and women in bed.  *Growl*.  No, I don't want or expect sympathy - just airing an old gripe.)


There may have been a better way to phrase it, but I don't think I've suggested that it's right for everyone. But Sea was asking for an explanation of why women weren't seen as cheap for not having the inclination to pay for guys they like, and well, I just can't think of a better explanation. I don't think it has to be the norm in every situation, and there are many couples who I'm sure get along fine on the thinking that each person should contribute equally in all areas, or even that the female should be the one to do the spoiling.

If that's what they like, I love it. But the reality is that some countries go so far as to banning women from work because they believe the man should provide for her financially. I certainly don't agree with that, and wouldn't be comfortable having my needs depend on a man, but for now the norm is what it is. The norm is that a man who's committed to or loves a woman provides for her financially. It may be providing frivolous things, it may be providing an entire life (50s style).

I know my preferences, but I'm also aware that the societal norm is that men are the dominant ones sexually. Now, I admit it wouldn't feel good if someone thought I was a shrew because I like to dominate, but I know what societal norms are. I wouldn't agree with them, but there's no lack of understanding as to why I might be viewed a certain way. I don't think I'm a demanding gold digger because I like to be spoiled, but I understand why someone could view me that way.

quote:

 
I said above that I wouldn't want to admit to being that sort of man.  (Actually, the 'gift' bit doesn't bother me - it's the 'resources' bit that does.)  The truth is that I'd find dealing with a woman like that - one who's much richer than me, and wants to show it, constantly - downright awkward.  It's happened before, in fact.  So does my awkwardness make me a gentleman, or does it make me a sexist?  Supposing you were to meet a man you really fell for - but he were to balk at forming a relationship with you because you were markedly better off than he was? 


Again, societal norms. It's a little easier to be topped sexually because it's generally in private. When there's an imbalance that shows up in daily life, it can be harder. Especially for men, because well, they're supposed to be financially superior (generalizing here, not stating as fact for all relationships), even if they like to submit in other areas.

If I were used to providing for myself at a certain level, I wouldn't change that. I don't even think it takes being significantly better off. I went out with a guy who's currently unemployed (in the country I'm in, that definitely doesn't equal broke, but still). I paid for drinks at a trendy bar (about 30 Euro) and started picking up small gifts or expenses and that's when I stopped hearing from him. Who knows, I could've developed bad breath or a wart in that same time period, but I do know that when he was paying I got much more attention.

If I really fell for a guy and he didn't want to form a relationship because my finances were better, I'd probably be disappointed, but not surprised.

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RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/9/2009 6:51:54 AM   
undergroundsea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 4u2spoil
but the point is that a man who is interested in the woman is expected to not limit his interest when it comes to material things like paying for dinner or buying gifts. It's just the way things are. I can see that it's not right for you, but that's the norm.


For perspective, the question we seem to be asking with respect to Akasha's friend is why is the flow of gifts or material offerings expected to be unidirectional.

All reasonings, including the explanation by ShaktiSama, do not explain a unidirectional flow but instead suggest a bidirectional flow. Amongst the different reasons given to explain an expectation of unidirectional flow of material offerings, what you say holds most--that it is the cultural norm. However, to say that it is how we have always done things is not necessarily a resilient answer and falls short on intellectual reasoning. A question to then ask is why have we always done things this way.

Incidentally, I think the norm you describe is in flux and is not uniformly defined because times have changed from when this norm was defined.

I come from an old-fashioned, conservative family which passed on to me traditional values. As with other cultural norms passed to me, I now interpret this one in a way that makes sense to me. And the way it makes sense to me is that I do not see it as a duty (as was initially passed to me) but as a positive gesture that is volunteered. I am turned off when someone does not see this gesture as a courtesy but as their right or my duty.

I have reiterated this point multiple times. If you find no issue with this point then I am not sure where the disagreement is. If you do find issue, please clarify. If you are unsure what I mean, please seek clarification.

I see the double standard with respect to Akasha's friend to remain unaddressed because she criticizes a behavior she herself is not willing to do. This observation suggests she thinks it is her right to receive some offering unidirectionally whereas I do not see it as a right.

Cheers,

Sea

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RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/9/2009 7:05:01 AM   
undergroundsea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 4u2spoil
But Sea was asking for an explanation of why women weren't seen as cheap for not having the inclination to pay for guys they like, and well, I just can't think of a better explanation. I don't think it has to be the norm in every situation, and there are many couples who I'm sure get along fine on the thinking that each person should contribute equally in all areas, or even that the female should be the one to do the spoiling.


I agree that your answer is the closest explanation for the question I asked. I did not mean to say that women who do not pay for a man are cheap. Instead I meant that it is odd for Akasha's friend to describe a man as cheap when he is doing more than what she is willing to do.

I think best of relationships or interactions where there is mutual and similar flow of energy in each direction. How this flow takes form will vary from situation to situation. When this flow is mutual, there is mutual satisfaction.

Cheers,

Sea

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RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/9/2009 8:00:14 AM   
Lockit


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Status: offline 		My mother's greatest wish for me was that I would find a good man who made good money so that he could take good care of me.  It wasn't the first time I thought she was crazy!  Then she once told me... if you are on a date and don't want to have sex, give him a blow job!  Then I knew she was crazy, for sure!  I stopped listening to her and to many of her age and the thought of the day when I was the first in school to burn my bra and have walked away from the thinking of my mother and many like her.

Depend on a man when I can do what I need to do to take care of myself?  No... I think not!  Give a blow job when I don't want to have sex?  Gee mama, they do have birth control now and if I don't want sex with him, I sure am not putting that thing in my mouth! 

Okay... a little extreme, but so is this thinking that even at 80% of the wages of men, I can't take care of myself and am naturally or socially inclinded to look for someone who can take care of me.  I don't care what society or the nature of things indicate... I am who I am and I do what I want to do and it has cost me dearly at times, but I will not pick a man who needs to purchase me to have me.  Boy those types have no imagination and typically are rather odd.  No... the social norms of days past and the ways of thinking that a man should impress me by buying things for me was once considered by me as pretty empty.  Now I think he is empty and rude.  If a man can only impress me by what he buys for me, then both of us are rather empty.

I don't believe that anyone is talking about someone wanting someone only for their money.  Not one dominant here has said that.  What most have said is that they don't want a tight wad and that I can understand.  Example:  Two people involved in a relationship, one wants to go on a vacation and there is plenty of money to go and have a blast... all bills are paid and there's enough in the bank to cover emergencies that come up.  The woman wants to go and really have fun and buy a few trinkets.  They guy agree's to the vacation but only if they stay in the cheapest motel, bring an ice chest to eat in the room and cut expense's and say's there is no money for trinket's.  That is a tight wad and no one wants a tight wad... they are no fun.

A person shows that you are worth something to them by valuing who and what you are as a person, likes to be near you and talk to you and adds those little touches and gifts of love that come from the heart.

Now... I am impressed if I need something and a man supplies it.  Like I need a new something put in and it is a big something and I can't do it and he comes over all hunky looking and does it for me.  Or I am short on money having had a lot of expenses and he lightens the load by bringing me something I cannot afford at the moment for us to share.  He buys me pretty lacy things... and that is for him in my eyes because you know he wants to see me in it.  He brings gifts and doesn't bring the heart... no thanks.  It is not what he does or brings to me that is important... but the thought of brightening my day or load in life.

If one is so afraid of being used for sex or money so much that they see people only wanting them for such things, then I feel that even if there are mostly people out there that want to use them for such, that the real problem isn't in who is wanting to use them, but in using fear as a guide to protect themselves from the users.  That cannot be a comfortable place to live.  Get over the fear... you know the red flags for you... you know the game... move on.  Consider the user source and stop friggin worrying about it.  You start living your life on the condition of other's hearts and souls... you are in sad shape.  Move on... stop fighting what you cannot change and stop bitching about it and live true to who you are.  OR... stay right where you are and send a few red flags to others.  Your choice.  For me... I am going for happy... and living life the way I want whether anyone can join me or not.  Life is too short for this long an arguement over something you don't personally have to take on.  Life is about choice in many ways... make your choice and move on.  To try and convince the world of something, repeatedly is like beating a limp dick that won't ever get hard.

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RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/9/2009 8:12:57 AM   
PeonForHer


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Status: offline 		Two points of info, Lockit

Firstly, was that final paragraph aimed at Sea particularly, or people in general?

Secondly, re Now... I am impressed if I need something and a man supplies it.  Like I need a new something put in and it is a big something and I can't do it and he comes over all hunky looking and does it for me
 
- does the man have to look hunky?  Would it require a chest wig?

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RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/9/2009 8:16:56 AM   
Lockit


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Status: offline 		Number one... this whole thread

Number two... nothing fake darlin... hunky is jeans and tool belt for me. lol

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RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/9/2009 10:29:21 AM   
undergroundsea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit
I don't believe that anyone is talking about someone wanting someone only for their money.  Not one dominant here has said that.  What most have said is that they don't want a tight wad and that I can understand.


Sure, I think not wanting a tightwad is entirely reasonable, as is what you describe in the example you give.

However, I do not agree with how a couple of posters have designated as tightwads those with whom they have disagreement.

quote:

A person shows that you are worth something to them by valuing who and what you are as a person, likes to be near you and talk to you and adds those little touches and gifts of love that come from the heart.


I agree. There are five principle modes of expressing affection. When there is emphasis on only one--receiving financial offerings--how is one to know whether there is an agenda or not. I am comfortable with how my overall expression touches the different modes.

quote:

If one is so afraid of being used for sex or money so much that they see people only wanting them for such things, then I feel that even if there are mostly people out there that want to use them for such, that the real problem isn't in who is wanting to use them, but in using fear as a guide to protect themselves from the users.  That cannot be a comfortable place to live.  Get over the fear... you know the red flags for you... you know the game... move on. 


I think a key reason behind this discussion is that it is occurring online where we are pondering the situation with faceless entities. It becomes a role versus role issue:

When Akasha describes her friend, I wonder who is this person who thinks she is owed financial offerings just because?

The gesture has not yet been earned by this faceless entity. In practice, as familiarity and interest develops, this gesture is more likely to be given. That is one point.

When I am treated by anyone, I express appreciation for the courtesy and think it is polite and thoughtful to return this gesture somehow, whether it is by treating in the future or through some other thoughtful gesture. I appreciate the same attitude in others.

There are people who do not have this attitude. To me, an expectation of unidirectionally receiving courtesies as if it is a right conveys a sense of entitlement which I find unattractive at least in a relationship partner. This attitude seems narcissistic to me and it is this attitude to which I object. You are right that there are flags that convey this attitude. And this focus on the unwanteds in this discussion should not carry through to real life where it might sabotage an otherwise good situation.

quote:

life is too short for this long an arguement over something you don't personally have to take on.  Life is about choice in many ways... make your choice and move on.  To try and convince the world of something, repeatedly is like beating a limp dick that won't ever get hard.


Well now, I feel silly for typing this post ;-)

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 2/9/2009 10:46:35 AM >

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RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/9/2009 10:35:03 AM   
4u2spoil


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Okay... a little extreme, but so is this thinking that even at 80% of the wages of men, I can't take care of myself and am naturally or socially inclinded to look for someone who can take care of me. 


I'll never forget the look on my grandmother's face when she was trying to teach me a recipe and I told her I'd rather read a book. She said "what are you going to do when you get married?" I said "marry a man who knows how to cook." She didn't laugh.

But she was very ahead of her time in other ways. She always had her own savings, for any joint decisions her name was always on the contract with my grandfather's - sometimes first, and she was very complete as an individual, even though I know she really loved my grandfather and being a wife. And when my grandfather attempted cooking, I found out that even if you marry a man who wants to cook for you, it's still good to have your own recipe (some of the things he came up with...E for effort, but that's about it).

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RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/9/2009 10:35:16 AM   
Vendaval


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Most people in general look for someone who is financially stable and capable, preferably successful,  so they do not have to pick up the whole cost of the relationship.

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RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/9/2009 12:48:19 PM   
MistressDolly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

To me, unidirectionally giving a gift is a positive gesture or courtesy--it is not a duty. When someone acts as if it is a duty, it makes me wonder what the basis is for thinking so. Aside from a value handed down to us, I am curious what reasons people see to justify such an expectation.

If giving gifts is such a wonderful gesture and not giving one is cheap, why are those who expect it not giving it and why are they exempt from the cheap designation they give to others?


Of course men spend money and resouces on Women. It's more than cultural conditioning or a simple value handed down to us; it is biological in origin. We see nuptial gifts given to Females by males throughout the animal world. Humans may be more elaborate in these behaviors, but male giving to entice Female interest is as old as the Earth.

Sincerely chivalrous, generous and respectful acts by men honor Women. Males who understand this will earn our interest, and always will. It doesn't mean you are inferior; it means you are doing what's in your nature to do, and like it or not, we Woman are doing what's in our nature to do by accepting, or at least pausing to consider. The fact men have been doing this (and continue to do so) doesn't mean they have to give unendingly to every Woman; only the ones they adore and are moved to pursue.

It's a little misguided to believe the sexes should play equally here, not only for the fact it's not within our nature, but we wouldn't want to emaasculate men into coy passivity, anyway. They are and must be the seekers, and we as Females will always be sought. It's the rules of the Mating Game. Don't take it so personally and learn to be generous. There's a reason fortune is often depicted as a Woman, you know.

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RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/9/2009 1:02:09 PM   
strangedesire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDolly

Of course men spend money and resouces on Women. It's more than cultural conditioning or a simple value handed down to us; it is biological in origin. We see nuptial gifts given to Females by males throughout the animal world. Humans may be more elaborate in these behaviors, but male giving to entice Female interest is as old as the Earth.

Sincerely chivalrous, generous and respectful acts by men honor Women. Males who understand this will earn our interest, and always will. It doesn't mean you are inferior; it means you are doing what's in your nature to do, and like it or not, we Woman are doing what's in our nature to do by accepting, or at least pausing to consider. The fact men have been doing this (and continue to do so) doesn't mean they have to give unendingly to every Woman; only the ones they adore and are moved to pursue.

It's a little misguided to believe the sexes should play equally here, not only for the fact it's not within our nature, but we wouldn't want to emaasculate men into coy passivity, anyway. They are and must be the seekers, and we as Females will always be sought. It's the rules of the Mating Game. Don't take it so personally and learn to be generous. There's a reason fortune is often depicted as a Woman, you know.


Bullshit. 

Some of us don't want gifts.  Some of us don't like the idea that we can be bought.  Some of us are uninterested in a man's financial resources, outside of his ability to take care of himself.  We are not freakish or unnatural because of this. 

I am extremely offended by the idea that I am bound by some sort of biological imperative to be a materialist.  Beyond what I need to provide for myself and the people I care about, I don't crave, desire, or like physical objects and pretty things.  I have no problem with women who want to be spoiled, and I have no problems with pros or financial dommes.  I do have a problem with anyone who suggests, even in such vague terms, that I am less of a woman for not wanting tangible gifts. 

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RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/9/2009 1:14:54 PM   
MistressDolly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: strangedesire

I have no problem with women who want to be spoiled, and I have no problems with pros or financial dommes.  I do have a problem with anyone who suggests, even in such vague terms, that I am less of a woman for not wanting tangible gifts. 



Hate to press your buttons and then burst your bubble, but this is all you.

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RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/9/2009 1:28:29 PM   
PeonForHer


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Status: offline 		But . . . . Mistress Dolly - you're a dominant woman.  Being dominant isn't supposed to be in women's "nature", is it?  I do think it's bit much for either dominant women - or submissive men, for that matter -  to appeal to what's supposed to be in our "nature"!

Besides - I can't particulary see that Sea's argument was essentially personal here.  He was making a reasonable point - and one with which I, for one, have some sympathy.



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RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/9/2009 1:29:20 PM   
strangedesire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDolly


quote:

ORIGINAL: strangedesire

I have no problem with women who want to be spoiled, and I have no problems with pros or financial dommes.  I do have a problem with anyone who suggests, even in such vague terms, that I am less of a woman for not wanting tangible gifts. 



Hate to press your buttons and then burst your bubble, but this is all you.


When you say that gift-giving is the natural order of things, you insinuate that those of us who don't want gifts are, well, unnatural.  Now, I'm unnatural in a lot of ways, but my distaste for men trying to buy my affection isn't one of them. 

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RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/9/2009 1:41:04 PM   
AAkasha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: strangedesire

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDolly


quote:

ORIGINAL: strangedesire

I have no problem with women who want to be spoiled, and I have no problems with pros or financial dommes.  I do have a problem with anyone who suggests, even in such vague terms, that I am less of a woman for not wanting tangible gifts. 



Hate to press your buttons and then burst your bubble, but this is all you.


When you say that gift-giving is the natural order of things, you insinuate that those of us who don't want gifts are, well, unnatural.  Now, I'm unnatural in a lot of ways, but my distaste for men trying to buy my affection isn't one of them. 



I am a woman who doesn't want or need gifts and has always paid for courting; I enjoy being the pursuer.

That said, my point is different. It's not that women WANT gifts.  If a guy is totally broke and he cannot afford anything but he's sweet and sincere and has all other said qualities desired, that's fine.  What I am talking about is when a man has the means, but DELIBERATELY keeps his wallet locked up tight using the "reasoning" that he is afraid he will be taken advantage of, so he will ONLY offer gestures of courtship when he deems the woman is worthy of it.  It's like some sub men are using the excuse of the fact that yes, there are unscrupulous women out there (admit it guys, you can SEE them coming a mile away) to be cheap with other women who are legitimately used to having a man show some gestures of appreciation when he is courting her.  I am not talking about "Buy me gifts or I won't talk to you," I am talking about a man following the traditional roles of courtship, NOT extreme demands for money or gifts.  Go back and read Shatki's post - she sums it up quite nicely.

Again, if a guy simply has no money, that's another story. It's when a guy is perfectly capable of paying or doing small things but he won't, because he wants to make sure FIRST that it's 'equal' effort, or gestures, or whatever.  That just seems like he is using an excuse to be cheap.  I think it stinks.

Akasha


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RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/9/2009 1:42:28 PM   
MistressDolly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: strangedesire

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDolly


quote:

ORIGINAL: strangedesire

I have no problem with women who want to be spoiled, and I have no problems with pros or financial dommes.  I do have a problem with anyone who suggests, even in such vague terms, that I am less of a woman for not wanting tangible gifts. 



Hate to press your buttons and then burst your bubble, but this is all you.


When you say that gift-giving is the natural order of things, you insinuate that those of us who don't want gifts are, well, unnatural.  Now, I'm unnatural in a lot of ways, but my distaste for men trying to buy my affection isn't one of them. 



I do understand what you're saying. This is why I always make it clear the act of giving should be authentic and respectful—not just a ploy or a manipulation. I'm betting you know the difference.

The man who gives humbly and out of sincere admiration with no strings attached may attract me, but the man who gives to only flatter himself will get his head cut off (proverbially speaking, of course).

_____________________________

m i s t r e s s d o l l y . c o m

m y s p a c e


(in reply to strangedesire)
Profile   Post #: 378
RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/9/2009 1:48:28 PM   
MistressDolly


Posts: 917
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

But . . . . Mistress Dolly - you're a dominant woman.  Being dominant isn't supposed to be in women's "nature", is it?



I believe to a lesser or greater degree, yes, it often is. There are plenty of traditional homes in which the men will admit (albeit often through jest) their wives call the shots.

_____________________________

m i s t r e s s d o l l y . c o m

m y s p a c e


(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 379
RE: Why is it that most Dommes want subs that are "... - 2/9/2009 2:26:41 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDolly

It's more than cultural conditioning or a simple value handed down to us; it is biological in origin. We see nuptial gifts given to Females by males throughout the animal world.


Biological in origin huh?

I sure would love to see the proof of that.  Care to provide a resource?

I wasn't aware animals had nuptials. 

Now, when they pick a best man and maid-of-honor do they have to be within the same species, or say, can a cat act as best man for a dog?

I wasn't even aware they gave gifts.

I know my mutt goes over and fucks the neighbor's dog every chance he gets, but I have yet to see him carrying over a milkbone to give her.

(in reply to MistressDolly)
Profile   Post #: 380
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