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Incidentally, as I write this I’m listening to President Obama give a live speech in which he just stated that we need tax cuts to stimulate the economy.  I guess he’s thick and wants to create more poverty, huh?
I’m tired of dancing in circles.  You’re not going to convince me and I’m obviously not going to convince you.  You can have the last word if you want.  

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ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

We saw, during the past eight years, the effect of tax cuts, particularly the cuts on Cap gains. The theory was that all this extra money would go into expanding businesses, upgrading physical plant, hiring new employees, yada yada.

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Instead, in conjunction with the repeal of Glass-Steagal, the money flew into risky "investments" like the derivatives.

So Marc2b's solution is to give more money to the speculators? I say increase Cap gains on all paper trades. Increase Cap gains on real-estate flipping.  Increase Cap gains on the rich coupon-clippers. Increase income taxes on incomes from 250K up, heavily graduated. Eliminate the cap on FICA, FUT, SUT, and Medicare contributions. Let's get some real money pouring into the coffers.

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....idiotic blathering including an out of context founding father quote deleted....

Stopping Bush's idiot wars would be a good start.  Corporate welfare costs about 150 billion a year. Stop that shit, too. ADM does not need subsidies for high-fructose corn syrup.

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Do I want "big" government? No, I want effective and efficient government. I want that government to do everything possible to make the burdens of life easier for ALL citizens, not just those who are politically connected, or who can work the good-ole-boy system of the "private" sector. I want to make sure that people have heat, water, food, a roof over their heads, education, and medical care vbefore another dime is spent on some new "Star Wars" military bullshit.

And I want a living wage. If that means the Walton family makes a couple billion bucks less a year, fine. A living wage lets people buy stuff. It allows people to get to their jobs. It helps them get ahead.

The time of public policy being designed to benefit only the stockholders has to end. I'd actually like to see an end to corporations, too, but that's another thread.

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1) There is a distinct lack of credit available for investment, from which to generate the value that funds corporate tax: wealth creation, never mind the ins and outs of wealth distribution, is plummeting.

2) There is a distinct lack of confidence all round: the banks will not lend where they would have done previously; demand has fallen significantly; public and personal debt are sky high.

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1) There is a distinct lack of credit available for investment, from which to generate the value that funds corporate tax: wealth creation, never mind the ins and outs of wealth distribution, is plummeting.

2) There is a distinct lack of confidence all round: the banks will not lend where they would have done previously; demand has fallen significantly; public and personal debt are sky high.

Economists hold their hands up to not fully understanding the boom and bust cycle (nature and solution). Many believe it is the inevitable consequence of the human tendancy to overstretch ourselves and then regulate ourselves. So, I certainly do not have the answers, but one thing I can say with much confidence is this: tax cuts will never be a significant factor in dampening a recession (it's simply not significant in the scheme of vast public and personal debt, the flow of credit grinding to a halt and a widespread lack of confidence in the market). I tend to think that recessions simply burn themselves out.

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Edited to add: And Marc, in the event you cut people's taxes in hard times and widespread pessimism, they'll simply pocket the money and keep for it for a rainy day (rather than go out and spend, spend, spend).

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Dude, don't be fooled. When you run Obama's "tax cuts" through the decoder ring what you end up is a bunch of people that pay no federal income tax getting a federal tax refund. That's welfare not a tax cut and that's the only "tax cut" in the so-called stimulus bill. You know, that bill the congressional budget office (an office staffed with career Democrat bureaucrats) says will have a *negative* effect on gross domestic product.

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ORIGINAL: ArizonaSunSwitch

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ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

We saw, during the past eight years, the effect of tax cuts, particularly the cuts on Cap gains. The theory was that all this extra money would go into expanding businesses, upgrading physical plant, hiring new employees, yada yada.

Yup, and it did, several million jobs were created over and above the job losses that occurred do to 9/11. Government bungling with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac cause a credit crisis that started in late 2005-2006. When there's no credit system for companies to turn to during recessions you get a munch deeper recession with higher job losses.

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The republicans tried to reign in Freddie and Fannie in 2005 and were called racists for their efforts. The community reinvestment act that passed in the Carter years forced banks to take into account things other than a mortgage applicant's ability to pay. This was done so Government could force banks to loan to people the government felt would benefit them with votes. In the Clinton years this bill was amended to require Freddie and Fannie to have *50 PERCENT* of their mortgage portfolio to be *SUBPRIME*. It's amazing this house of cards didn't fall sooner.

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I'm no longer of the opinion that this situation was a mistake. I'm of the opinion these programs were put into effect to *cause* the problems we have now, so government can centralize power even more.

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Instead, in conjunction with the repeal of Glass-Steagal, the money flew into risky "investments" like the derivatives.

So Marc2b's solution is to give more money to the speculators? I say increase Cap gains on all paper trades. Increase Cap gains on real-estate flipping.  Increase Cap gains on the rich coupon-clippers. Increase income taxes on incomes from 250K up, heavily graduated. Eliminate the cap on FICA, FUT, SUT, and Medicare contributions. Let's get some real money pouring into the coffers.

You raise taxes you reduce revenue. Even John F Kennedy understood this.

quote:



....idiotic blathering including an out of context founding father quote deleted....

Stopping Bush's idiot wars would be a good start.  Corporate welfare costs about 150 billion a year. Stop that shit, too. ADM does not need subsidies for high-fructose corn syrup.

quote:



Sorry to tell you, the iraq war was won 18 months ago. Obama is not doing a damn thing to change the pullout plans, as pulling out earlier will leave Iraq vulnerable to attack from Iran, a country Obama claims is small and couldn't hurt anybody and will make him look like an ass if he diverts from Bush's plan in any way. Of course, he'll *say* he is doing things differently.

A Dem bitching about ADM ? This is priceless. The Ethanol scam is the biggest windfall ADM has ever seen.

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Do I want "big" government? No, I want effective and efficient government. I want that government to do everything possible to make the burdens of life easier for ALL citizens, not just those who are politically connected, or who can work the good-ole-boy system of the "private" sector. I want to make sure that people have heat, water, food, a roof over their heads, education, and medical care vbefore another dime is spent on some new "Star Wars" military bullshit.

And I want a living wage. If that means the Walton family makes a couple billion bucks less a year, fine. A living wage lets people buy stuff. It allows people to get to their jobs. It helps them get ahead.

The time of public policy being designed to benefit only the stockholders has to end. I'd actually like to see an end to corporations, too, but that's another thread.

Oh, wonderful, you want a bunch of free goodies and you want people more successful than you to pay for it. *yawns*

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If you don't have a house, heat, water and food over your head in this country it's *YOUR* fault not your neighbors.

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ORIGINAL: MzMia

Any thoughts on how America can at least make a dent in the daily rising numbers of the unemployed?

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ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

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ORIGINAL: MzMia

Any thoughts on how America can at least make a dent in the daily rising numbers of the unemployed?

I read through all the pages of debate on this thread and have decided there is no cure, if my opinion had to be based on what everyone is saying. Kind of sounded like this thread mirrored what the government's problem is, no one knows what the right answer is (or at least can't agree on one). My first thought is to see if I can find a second hand Jeep, mount a 50 caliber on the roll cage and change my name to Mad Max....won't help the overall economy but pillaging will be much easier.

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ORIGINAL: MzMia

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ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

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ORIGINAL: MzMia

Any thoughts on how America can at least make a dent in the daily rising numbers of the unemployed?

I read through all the pages of debate on this thread and have decided there is no cure, if my opinion had to be based on what everyone is saying. Kind of sounded like this thread mirrored what the government's problem is, no one knows what the right answer is (or at least can't agree on one). My first thought is to see if I can find a second hand Jeep, mount a 50 caliber on the roll cage and change my name to Mad Max....won't help the overall economy but pillaging will be much easier.

Can you spell the words, DEPRESSION?
Buddy? Can you spare a job?

The American worker has been sold down the river, by big business.
How is the "global economy" and all the "free trade" crap working for
us these days? 

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ORIGINAL: MzMia

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ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

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ORIGINAL: MzMia

Any thoughts on how America can at least make a dent in the daily rising numbers of the unemployed?

I read through all the pages of debate on this thread and have decided there is no cure, if my opinion had to be based on what everyone is saying. Kind of sounded like this thread mirrored what the government's problem is, no one knows what the right answer is (or at least can't agree on one). My first thought is to see if I can find a second hand Jeep, mount a 50 caliber on the roll cage and change my name to Mad Max....won't help the overall economy but pillaging will be much easier.

Can you spell the words, DEPRESSION?
Buddy? Can you spare a job?

The American worker has been sold down the river, by big business.
How is the "global economy" and all the "free trade" crap working for
us these days? 

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ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

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ORIGINAL: MzMia

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ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

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ORIGINAL: MzMia

Any thoughts on how America can at least make a dent in the daily rising numbers of the unemployed?

I read through all the pages of debate on this thread and have decided there is no cure, if my opinion had to be based on what everyone is saying. Kind of sounded like this thread mirrored what the government's problem is, no one knows what the right answer is (or at least can't agree on one). My first thought is to see if I can find a second hand Jeep, mount a 50 caliber on the roll cage and change my name to Mad Max....won't help the overall economy but pillaging will be much easier.

Can you spell the words, DEPRESSION?
Buddy? Can you spare a job?

The American worker has been sold down the river, by big business.
How is the "global economy" and all the "free trade" crap working for
us these days? 

Mia, you hit it on the head, depression is coming (actually started, just no one admits it). Business being too greedy and too many folks living outside their means, through readily available credit, killed the economy. Sure, everyone can chatter about this problem and that problem, but greed and credit were the Achilles’ heels IMHO. All the stimulus packages in the world are not going to turn this around overnight; it will take a total rethink of how business operates and how the common folk live. The economy will have to bottom, it's inevitable, and if it doesn't bottom I would be very surprised. Speaking from experience in the manufacturing sector, what I have seen is American businesses taking advantage of the free trade agreements, purchasing product at reduced prices and not passing that savings on to the next tier, which eventually directly affects the consumer (it's called pocketing the profit). This is happening at every tier of the supply chain, so the issue is actually multiplied. Additionally, the consumer kept borrowing in an effort to keep up with the final product costs (and the Jones's) and now they are so far in the hole they couldn't climb out with a ladder. Everyone concerned simply went to the well too often and now it's dry. In manufacturing, the first step is going to require businesses to accept that they cannot enjoy the profit margin they did in the past, they really are going to have to accept the industry standard 5% to 6% profit, not smoke screen the numbers so they maintain 15% or more. Manufacturing in the states versus overseas would have little affect on the final product price, if the greed were chopped out of the equation. I know for a fact this percentage manipulating was (and still is) common practice and it has to change. In addition to that the consumer is going to have to suck it up and go back to the old school way of thinking and purchase products they can afford, not purchase what they can borrow money for. If it costs too much, don't buy it! Years ago it was normal to have a loan for a house and a car, but everything else was cash on the barrelhead. Now days, anything and everything is purchased on credit, thanks to that little plastic card &/or equity loans. Just say no, this will force prices down because inventory doesn't pay the bills, selling product does.

Who is to blame? Everyone most likely. When prices got ridiculous on vehicles, consumers should have said no, but instead they just borrowed more money and bought them anyway (sheeple). When imported cars were made available, since they were cheaper they just switched to purchasing them instead of domestic cars. When the foreign automakers raised their prices (because they could) then the same consumers again just borrowed more money and bought them anyway. Same story on the housing market. Folks were enjoying ridiculous increases in real estate valuation and having their equity jump leaps and bounds, so what did they do, sell for a profit and upgrade their living standard by purchasing overpriced housing with the assumption it was a good investment, because the value would certainly increase, guess that issue is correcting itself, ya think. Lots of greed perpetuated the current situation, fair and equitable wasn't good enough.

The party is over and it is time to pay the piper. Everyone meet at the bottom and we will work our way back up, there really is no golden parachute. Back to the original question, so what do you do about the lost jobs? There is nothing to do at this point, suck it up and try to survive until things turn around is most likely the only choice. Sorry to be so gloom and doom, but less jobs means less money which equates to less spending, which promotes less jobs, which...well you get the idea. In other words, buy your own Jeep while you still can.

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

Quit believing in the myth of the global economy. That is if you want any particular country to build and hold a stable economy.

That fallacy has come home to roost to bite us in the ass.

Our industrialists decided that immediate profit increase was all that was important. They did not foresee the time when there would not be a market for their goods at their previous prices. This because the people that were purchasing them no longer have the expendable income…because they lost their jobs when industry was moved from the country.

Now they are faced with ruin…and begging tax money from the very people they screwed.

I think China has the right idea… When greedy industrialist does something to threaten their economy… they execute them.

Excuse me but I’m feeling extreme today.

Butch the Barbarian

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ORIGINAL: MzMia

Thought I would update this thread.
Unemployment numbers are out today, unemployment is going up and up,
no real end sight.
More questions than answers, but where will the jobs come from?
We don't make or produce much of anything in America.

I just don't see this ending well, and certainly not ending anytime soon.
The end of an era, is starting to ring true.