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RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards - 2/7/2009 1:05:37 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

quote:

Oddly enough, many think the work kinky also means devoid of any morals or standards.

Indeed.

 
I am inspired by a response PeonforHer made to a thread about marrieds and cheating--he used the quote above--to which My immediate reaction was "here here"--but as I thought about it, I was stopped in My tracks--isn't that what kink is? The bending, the ignoring of morals and standards in areas that suit our preferences?
 
Are they present? Are they absent, or is it a personal preference to use selective  morality.  I mean here I am tying the boy to a tree naked to whip him and stick things in his orifices not caring what others think and bashing people who fool around---who has more morals and standards?
 

 


Before I can answer this, I have to do a bit of defining:

Morals: 1. The lesson or principle contained in or taught by a fable, a story, or an event.
2. A concisely expressed precept or general truth; a maxim.
3. morals Rules or habits of conduct, especially of sexual conduct, with reference to standards of right and wrong: a person of loose morals; a decline in the public morals.

Standards: model; criterion; norm; average; commodity which backs a monetary system


Morals are a general expression of the habits of conduct of a culture. As such, I've always pretty much lived on the fringes of what I'll call "common culture". However, that does not mean that I exist without morals... and I -certainly- don't exist or maintain my relationships without standards. In fact, I have very -high- standards expected of those that I deal with... the "average" or "norm" that I consider a 'baseline' exceeds that which I've found in the 'common world'.

If one lives outside of the moral code of the 'common world', then one typically creates a moral code and ethical standard of ones own. One of the problems, though, is that those in the 'common world' often don't have the tools (or interest) to figure out how another person's moral code and ethical standard relate to their own -- because their morals were handed to them by an outside entity, and is often also externally enforced, it is hard to imagine a place where someone obtains their moral code internally and -enforces- their own morality from inside. Most people just don't know what to do with that.

Then there is the other issue. There are, in any fringe community, people who make their way in strictly for the fun of 'tweaking the law' and the high of breaking the existing moral code, but whose personal moral code is either absent or finds nothing wrong with doing as much damage to others as possible on the path to getting what they want. Because of the labial nature of their morality, they can masquerade as anything they need to be to get ahead on the fringes... and can damage and twist others who are drawn to the quick rise to power, and then get away clean while those who followed them fall when the loss of morality clashes with the structures of the 'common world'. It is from here that most people get their perceptions of what it "means" to be 'kinky', or 'different', or 'fringe'. Because these 'downfall' situations are so publicized, and TV and magazines exploit these 'bad guy/girl from the fringe' situations, people rarely see the human beings with strong moral codes and high standards, despite their differences from the 'common world', who make up the bulk of the fringe communities.



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(in reply to CatdeMedici)
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RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards - 2/7/2009 1:25:01 PM   
lateralist1


Posts: 886
Joined: 11/22/2006
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Morality and standards are personal.  All we can do is to try and find people who are sympathetic to our own.
However part of my training of a sub I would wish to teach him my morality and standards so he never insulted them. Respect is essential to me. I could not be with anyone who did not respect me or who I did not respect.

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards - 2/7/2009 2:13:32 PM   
NCNutCase


Posts: 129
Joined: 2/2/2005
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I feel we each have the freedom to establish our own morals… I feel it is vital to share moral perspectives with those we are in intimate relationships with… I feel morals are worth less if we do not have the integrity to follow our own morals…

A Catholic priest that has high morals but doesn’t have the integrity to follow them can be far more destructive to others than a kinky person with ‘odd’ morals but lives with the integrity to stick to those 'odd' morals…

I definitely have my morals… and I definitely strive to live by them with the utmost integrity…

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards - 2/7/2009 4:12:21 PM   
SurrenderForMe


Posts: 229
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

1 a: of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ethical <moral judgments> b: expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior <a moral poem> c: conforming to a standard of right behavior d: sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment <a moral obligation> e: capable of right and wrong action <a moral agent>
  webster online

I am ethical, moral and kinky.  They are not mutually exclusive.  I would be immoral if I believed my behavior was wrong.  I don't.  I believe that others have their own issues and inhibitions to overcome to understand me.  "An it harm none, do as thee wilt".  Morally, I harm no one and nothing.  I may hurt someone, even cause permanent marks, but I don't harm them.  I am working with someone, openly, to achieve a common goal.  I cause and participate in quantifiable psychological, physical and emotional activities.  That, if viewed objectively, are fulfilling needs with a positive outcome or ameliorating negatives.

Lack of objectivity, prejudice and misplaced guilt are the issues that cause others to incorrectly see and judge my life as other that what it is.        

As T1981 said, consent.  I will take it further and say informed consent.  If I am with someone capable (in our opinion) of giving that consent, my intent and actions are positive, then I am acting within my moral boundaries.

Cheating is wrong in my world view.  No consent, intent is negative.  Immoral.

I am a sadist.  I hit people with their consent, cause pain with their consent, revel in the pain I cause, whether they consent or not. 

(in reply to CatdeMedici)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards - 2/7/2009 5:25:52 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
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Umm, slaveluci, there are lots of people on this site who are cheaters, and who say so right in their profile. I don't understand how you got the impression that nobody on this site has done so/is doing so. Under what circumstances do you feel it is right to cheat? I do agree that someone can be untrustworthy, immoral, and unethical in that area, but be a good person in other aspects of their life. I sure wouldn't knowingly get involved with one, but wouldn't automatically break up over it either. It would depend on other aspects of our relationship, the circumstances, etc. It still would be wrong, regardless of said circumstances, and I'd still be hurt and angry, but it may or may not be something I'd leave them over. My primary issue with it is ethical (unconsentually harming other people) rather than moral.


< Message edited by Andalusite -- 2/7/2009 5:26:50 PM >

(in reply to slaveluci)
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RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards - 2/7/2009 5:51:20 PM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: T1981

Consent makes the difference, in my eyes. The boy you tie up is okay with being whipped, the spouse who is unawares is probably NOT okay with being cheated on.


For the most part, this is how I see it in terms of morality. It isn't tied to what people do between themselves in consensual terms as long as everyone is an adult. It is how they interact with the world at large. Yes, there are gray areas where morality may be judged by society and even by those in the "lifestyle", but in a general sense kink has nothing to do with morality unless ones kink is fucking people over, lying, cheating, stealing... You may not like the fact that I tie my girl to a tree and stick all manner of objects in her orifices (how you would know this, I don't know), but the truth is I have committed no act against you or society. The fact that you don't like it, doesn't make it immoral and it certainly doesn't make it wrong between my girl and I. Honestly, I tend to see those actions in more of an amoral sense, where right and wrong are not always defined between the participants, and the actions themselves a path those participants follow to define what is right between them. 

That doesn't mean I'm ok with or involve myself with every kink out there. I'm not. I choose where, what, and with whom I involve myself in those terms, but I don't see their actions as immoral whether I like them or not.  

(in reply to T1981)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards - 2/7/2009 7:41:44 PM   
UPSG


Posts: 331
Joined: 1/22/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

quote:

Oddly enough, many think the work kinky also means devoid of any morals or standards.

Indeed.

 
I am inspired by a response PeonforHer made to a thread about marrieds and cheating--he used the quote above--to which My immediate reaction was "here here"--but as I thought about it, I was stopped in My tracks--isn't that what kink is? The bending, the ignoring of morals and standards in areas that suit our preferences?
 
Are they present? Are they absent, or is it a personal preference to use selective  morality.  I mean here I am tying the boy to a tree naked to whip him and stick things in his orifices not caring what others think and bashing people who fool around---who has more morals and standards?
 

 


Even killers often times have morals. Adulterers often have morals too. Presumably many in the kink of BDSM do as well.

I come from a Catholic background, and Catholicism understands sin to be a lesser good. Sex is good but rape is bad because it is a delineation downward of a lesser good in sex. Catholicism, influenced by Thomas Aquinas, also believes human nature to be intrinsically good and because of that always inclined to seek virtue (kind of like the probing in your post or the respect for limits by those within BDSM). The concept or doctrine of Original Sin stems from the North African St. Augustine. Catholicism and Protestantism view the concept of Original Sin very differently. The latter views it as a product of human nature being essentially bad or evil. I'm not much influenced by Protestantism though. So, I view humans as essentially good in nature but wounded by descent and therefore fixed with the battling dualities of virtues and vice, on one hand inclined toward virtue and on the other hand inclined toward sin. A Yin/Yang if you will.

Coming from a Catholic background I'm also comfortable and uncomfortable with sin. I'm comfortable with it because be it Amerindians engaged in roasting White children in front of their mothers, or Priests sexually molesting children, or Eastern Europeans engaged in cannibalism, sin is a reality in life. The heavy guilt factor a product of Catholic culture is admittedly psychologically torturing - or can be at times.

To whatever greater or lesser extents we make our choices in life. We all (I believe) answer to God in the end.

So, yeah you, and your boy tied to the tree are - in my view - engaged in a lesser good; so is the adulterer. Welcome to the party. Many of us are corrupted.

I like what Paul Newman's character in The Road to Perdition says in this scene (approximately 2:50 in). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk7yyN81Ru4&feature=related

(in reply to CatdeMedici)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards - 2/7/2009 7:52:35 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl
I know people that have lied, cheated, stolen..and many other *sins* ...in various stages of my life I've done them too. The reasons and background were as diverse as the people. None were or are awful people...none were/are devoid of any moral code.

With ALL my relationships, whatever they may be, friends, sprogs, family, there are areas I have trust in and areas I don't.

Well said, agirl.  I totally agree but you summed it up more succinctly than I did.  I've noted on these forums before how amazingly honest, upstanding and morally superior most everyone appears to be.  No liars, cheaters or scalliwags here.  Uh-huh, right.  We've ALL lied, cheated, stolen and much worse at times and it doesn't mean we are morally bankrupt. 
quote:

I will probably live out my days trying live up to my own *standards*. It's easy to have them, and fucking hard to live them. I am content to give myself some slack ,but I'm probably a rather bad person....lol

Nah, not at all............luci

< Message edited by slaveluci -- 2/7/2009 7:53:21 PM >


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(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards - 2/7/2009 7:58:52 PM   
OneMoreWaste


Posts: 910
Joined: 8/24/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici
Are they present? Are they absent, or is it a personal preference to use selective  morality.  I mean here I am tying the boy to a tree naked to whip him and stick things in his orifices not caring what others think and bashing people who fool around---who has more morals and standards?


Well, "morality" and bashing people *do* always seem to go hand in hand


_____________________________

-and the few still remember passion over rage-

(in reply to CatdeMedici)
Profile   Post #: 29
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