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Playing the fool in politics - 2/8/2009 8:58:40 AM   
Vaughner


Posts: 381
Joined: 5/30/2008
Status: offline 		  I was originally going to post this in another forum, but it became so long I decided to make it its own thread.  The thread that inspired this was on healthcare so that is what part of this essay so to speak entails.

First off let me state I am neither Republican nor Democrat.  I trust neither party to actually care about me or anyone else.  But I see the Republicans as the lesser of two evils as they are the party of "its your problem" versus the party of "we'll do it for you."
Normally I tend to stay out of political debates as no amount of reasoning, or wisdom will change the minds of those who have decided they are going to cling to a certain view.  But what I despise more than anything are those without the fortitude to take a stand and state what they truly believe.
The real problem here, is that too many have forgotten what is is to be truly self-reliant. 
Healthcare is not universal already because it is expensive.  Lets take a cardiothorasic surgeon who can make anywhere from 250K a year to 1 million a year.  "Oh man, those damn Doctors are greedy, they make too much money!"
Are you serious?  Before bitching that Doctors, drug companies, and the like make too much money, lets take a look at our society that pays atheletes ten times or more what these doctors make to entertain us one week out of a fraction of the year.  On top of that, people are in different ranges of intelligence and work ethic.  Not everyone has the inelligence, and work ethic to be a Doctor, to be the drug creating scientist, or the psychologist who treats the problemed child.  If you don't pay these people something similar to what their talents could net them in other fields, then only those with a true passion will go into that field.  And no, that will not provide nearly enough people.  Look at the shortages of military, police, and teachers in this country and tell me if you don't see a connection.

Number Two, NOBODY has a God given right to enter the United States of America.  I am in fact in favor of deportation of any illegal immagrant sick or not.  (if they are sick patch them up before sending them home) It is only the unwillingness of the people to do what is hard that makes it unrealistic.  Unless you really believe Americans are inherently superior to other peoples, you cannot escape the fact that if these illegals remained in their own countries and fought (I don't mean march but actually fought) for change, their nations wouldn't be such ruins that they are now.  Would it cost money and lives?  Yes it would, our revolution, the French Revolution, every revolution had a cost but it is the price of change.  If you have come here illegally you should take a back seat to those who are here legally.  Those who fled to this continent from Europe eventually learned that only fighting for what they desired would give it to them.  No amount of distance or fleeing resolved their issues.  Eventually they had to stand and fight.
Number Three, taxing the rich does not solve your problems.  The richer you are, the more money you pay in taxes.  As much as rich people pay, they don't owe the community a damn thing.  And if you keep taxing the rich do you know what happens?  One of two things, either first you run out of their money.  Or second they pack up and they leave!  How many of you have ever been goven a job by a poor person?  How many charities have been built exclusively on the donations of the lower and middle class, and made even a dent in the problem they were founded to address?
This pervailing attitude of entitlement is nothing but people allowing themselves to be pawns in a system of controlled class warfare.  Mainly because they are too bitter that their life didn't turn out the way they planned, so they assume anyone who did ascend to the upper tier must have screwed someone to get there.  One thing we should all be able to agree on is that those in Washington are there because they desire power.  These people do not want to help you, for if you are helped then you no longer need them!
You know its heart breaking when a kid dying of cancer can't afford the medical treatment necessary.  But you know what happens if you give it to them for free?  You give it to the next person for free, and then the next, and then the next.  It is childish to believe this can continue without end.  Eventually the system providing for them goes broke, and then nobody gets treatment.  The world is not fair, it is time to grow up and live with it.  Instead of praying that your vote goes to a politican who cares, perhaps it is time to see what you can do to improve your station through your own effort!
And while we're on medical care, how many of you own I-pods, new computers, new cars, DVD players, gaming computers, PS-2's, PS-3's, X-Box 360's, Stereos, Plasma TV's, and things of that nature?  You know you don't have to get insurance through your employer, you can carry it on your own.  "Oh but Vaughner its expensive!" Damn right it is, but if people weren't so caught up in all this materialistic I got to have it bullshit they might actually be able to afford 30 to 200 dollar monthly premiums.  Does it mean you may have to rent instead of own?  Buy used instead of new?  Have a sub who works out of the house instead of staying home?  Sure it may, but it means when something bad happens to your body you'll be able to get it fixed!  But nah people would rather spend their money on important things like video games.  Neither my employer nor my school provide my health insurance, I carry it myself and I've sacrificed a number of luxuries to have it.  I'm not wealthy on average I make $11.25 as a part-time IT worker.  But if somethiing bad happens to me, I won't be sitting around bitching that the government needs to come pay for my healthcare. 
Socialism is a process by which a certain standard is set.  The government will tell you how to think, how to live, how to act, what to do, when to do it, and how to do it.  Because they know better than you do how you should live your life, and if you are fool enough to put these kinds of people in power you deserve no better.
What is demonstrated by some of you here is pure bitterness, and jealousy.  The oil and tobacco companies are evil.  No the levels of taxation levied on these institutions is criminal, and the only reason we allow it to happen is jealousy.  Consider that Exxon made 45 billion dollars in 2007, and paid a whopping 14.5 billion dollars in taxes!  Why is this criminal?  Because the government contributes nothing, to the mining, refining, cultivation, purification, extraction, processing, transportation, and delivery of this item.  They contribute nothing to the process, yet they make more than 25% of the total income generated by the product.  Wars have been fought over this kind of taxation.
By allowing yourselves to give in to class envy you become pawns to those who use it to obtain their own goals.  Let me ask you, how many of these politicians you have all voted for live anything like you?  Yet you expect them to give a damn about you, and try to do something for your good?
I don't want to ramble any more than I already have.  So I will leave you all with this thought before you start flaming me.  Everyone who does not like things the way they are, asks where did it all go wrong?  You know what I can tell you where it all went wrong.
When George Washington was chosen as the first leader of this country, he originally desired to do so without been given pay of any form.  Congress and the other founding fathers forced him to take pay for his time in office.  Why?  They did not want to set the practice of only the independently wealthy being able to hold the office.  Now I ask you, when was the last time someone who was not independently wealthy held any of the important offices of this government republican or democrat?
So long as we allow ourselves to be pawns for votes to the motivations of others, we will never be treated with nor deserve anything better.

Call me a fanatic, call me a fool, call me what you will but if sacrasm and slander is all you have with which to retort your words fall on deaf ears.  You are responsible for your own well being, no matter how badly you wish it to be someone else's obligation.

Edit: Spelling

< Message edited by Vaughner -- 2/8/2009 9:45:05 AM >

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RE: Playing the fool in politics - 2/8/2009 9:25:12 AM   
YoursMistress


Posts: 894
Joined: 12/17/2008
Status: offline 		I too am  registered Republican, who generally votes more like a Libertarian.  I suspect that those who seek to serve the public through elected office are all doing it partly because they have a desire to serve the people and partly because they have huge egos that require big stroking, the bigger the office the bigger the ego.  Having started as a believer in flat taxes and such, I am now not so opposed to tax money coming from rich people and corporations.  I do understand that laws do in fact encourage behaviours.  Smart business people who understand the tax code will react to changes to protect their money, and no tax code, simple or complex, will be able to outsmart people. 

The reactions by the current administration are driven by the actions of business people "encouraged" by the laws and markets.  Those in government have an obligation to protect people's opportunity, and you are correct in that the general methods employed by the two parties are different.  But really, they are more similar than you suggest.  The Liberals tend to want to get money directly in the hands of the people, while the Conservatives tend to want to filter it through the hands of businessmen.  I suspect that balance in the end is the best chance for success. 

Regarding inequities in compensation, the people who determine the salaries of entertainers are ultimately the fans, and consumers of products endorsed and such.  It would be wonderful to live in a world where teachers are more valued than aathletes, except that it wouldn't be a world of people then, because that's what we do.  And the goal of people, parties and governments to try to make high quality health care available to more of us is a noble one, if still a supremely challenging one. 

yours


_____________________________

May your service of love a beautiful thing; want nothing else, fear nothing else and let love be free to become what love truly is. -- Hadewijch of Antwerp

As a rule, I don't like to make general statements.

(in reply to Vaughner)
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RE: Playing the fool in politics - 2/8/2009 9:33:20 AM   
Vaughner


Posts: 381
Joined: 5/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: YoursMistress

I too am  registered Republican, who generally votes more like a Libertarian.  I suspect that those who seek to serve the public through elected office are all doing it partly because they have a desire to serve the people and partly because they have huge egos that require big stroking, the bigger the office the bigger the ego.  Having started as a believer in flat taxes and such, I am now not so opposed to tax money coming from rich people and corporations.  I do understand that laws do in fact encourage behaviours.  Smart business people who understand the tax code will react to changes to protect their money, and no tax code, simple or complex, will be able to outsmart people. 

The reactions by the current administration are driven by the actions of business people "encouraged" by the laws and markets.  Those in government have an obligation to protect people's opportunity, and you are correct in that the general methods employed by the two parties are different.  But really, they are more similar than you suggest.  The Liberals tend to want to get money directly in the hands of the people, while the Conservatives tend to want to filter it through the hands of businessmen.  I suspect that balance in the end is the best chance for success. 

Regarding inequities in compensation, the people who determine the salaries of entertainers are ultimately the fans, and consumers of products endorsed and such.  It would be wonderful to live in a world where teachers are more valued than aathletes, except that it wouldn't be a world of people then, because that's what we do.  And the goal of people, parties and governments to try to make high quality health care available to more of us is a noble one, if still a supremely challenging one. 

yours



Oh I am not saying we should go through and impose pay cuts on all of the atheletes.  I just have no patience for those who scream that Doctors make too much money saving lives, while saying nothing about the overcompensation of those who perform a rather minor function in society make ten times what they do.  Poor wording in my part.

Where I do have to disagree with you is the notion than the Democrats wish to put the money in the hands of the people.  It seems to me that their wish is to put money into the government.  There is a fine line between them.  We are taught our government is by and for the people, but this is not really true.  Our government is chosen by the people for the people, the people are not government.  Nor can they be in any system besides direct Democracy which is unrealistic in a nation of this size. And in so far as putting it in the hands of business men, currently it seems to be the Dems are the ones championing the bailouts/stimulus to put billions into the hands of businessmen.

EDIT: Somehow managed to leave out a whole sentence.

< Message edited by Vaughner -- 2/8/2009 9:42:10 AM >

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RE: Playing the fool in politics - 2/8/2009 9:44:09 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline 		What I always find curious is everyone who says something like:
"First off let me state I am neither Republican nor Democrat.  I trust neither party to actually care about me or anyone else."
always goes on to post something straight out of the conservative Republican handbook

(in reply to Vaughner)
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RE: Playing the fool in politics - 2/8/2009 9:46:13 AM   
Vaughner


Posts: 381
Joined: 5/30/2008
Status: offline 		As an FYI I am an Independent, and the difference between me and the Republican playbook as that I advocate making tough decisions, something neither party seems willing to do.  And my views on Conservatism are only slightly more favorable than those on Liberalism.  I hold that church and state are different entities, and that provisions must be made for those who are INCAPABLE of helping.  I am conservative only in that I hold that I, and I alone am responsible for myself.  That is in fact the mentality that the Democrat party held many, many years ago.  And on that note since I know someone reading this is wondering, I did not vote for McCain.  Largely because I do not recognize the one he chose as his running mate to have been worthy of the office.  As I have only one grandparent who has lived to McCain's age, it is not unrealistic to expect he would have passed on in office.

Edit: If I were getting paid for my type-o's I'd become a rich man today.

< Message edited by Vaughner -- 2/8/2009 9:51:44 AM >

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This above all else, to thine own self be true

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RE: Playing the fool in politics - 2/8/2009 10:03:57 AM   
Lorr47


Posts: 862
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline 		I would agree with you on the illegal immigrant statement but for a different reason.  There is a civil war in Mexico and if we do not want it up here, we had better put up the beginnings of a defense.

I do not care if someone earns more than me.  More power to them except if they earn it by screwing the body politic.

However, what about people such as my x.  Her last operation cost over $200,000 and the insurance company slithered out of insuring her.  The next company also slithered out of the matter by hiring an independent whore who said the injury was not caused by the accident although four treating physicians said that it was caused by the accident to a medical certainty.  Now they want to settle at my x's expense.  Please save me from the "business community" administering medical coverage. Business takes your money and fights all claims.  She had paid her premiums and where else did she break her back in 3 to 4 places.  It was not broken before the accident and was after the accident.

Therefore I submit that the petroleum industry should be nationalized and the profits used to pay for universal medical coverage.  And, that no aspect of medical coverage be allowed to remain in the hands of the conservative business interests.  At least government's claim is to provide medical coverage.  I see business's aim as being to make a profit and avoid payment of claims at all costs. The cost is usually in the form of pain and suffering by the premium payer.

There is nothing wrong with socialism.  Socialism's biggest advocates have been Bush and Paulson so how can socialism be wrong?

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RE: Playing the fool in politics - 2/8/2009 10:11:08 AM   
Vaughner


Posts: 381
Joined: 5/30/2008
Status: offline 		You seem to be operating under the assumption that I think Bush is right.  You know what assuming does.

In so far as your x, that is tragic what happened to her I won't refute that.  The system is not perfect, and while I know it is of little comfort if they are forced to pay for everyone then eventually no one gets anything.  And part  of the reason they are forced to be so preditorial is because of how many who have no means of payent what so ever they are forced to provide care to.  While I do not know all the particulars of this case it sounds like a slam-dunk lawsuit in her favor so long as she knew what she was suing for.  By virtue of my major I happen to know a little about this.  If you like you can send me a Cmail and I will send you some relevant information.

< Message edited by Vaughner -- 2/8/2009 10:13:21 AM >

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RE: Playing the fool in politics - 2/8/2009 10:17:51 AM   
Vaughner


Posts: 381
Joined: 5/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47

I would agree with you on the illegal immigrant statement but for a different reason.  There is a civil war in Mexico and if we do not want it up here, we had better put up the beginnings of a defense.

I do not care if someone earns more than me.  More power to them except if they earn it by screwing the body politic.

However, what about people such as my x.  Her last operation cost over $200,000 and the insurance company slithered out of insuring her.  The next company also slithered out of the matter by hiring an independent whore who said the injury was not caused by the accident although four treating physicians said that it was caused by the accident to a medical certainty.  Now they want to settle at my x's expense.  Please save me from the "business community" administering medical coverage. Business takes your money and fights all claims.  She had paid her premiums and where else did she break her back in 3 to 4 places.  It was not broken before the accident and was after the accident.

Therefore I submit that the petroleum industry should be nationalized and the profits used to pay for universal medical coverage.  And, that no aspect of medical coverage be allowed to remain in the hands of the conservative business interests.  At least government's claim is to provide medical coverage.  I see business's aim as being to make a profit and avoid payment of claims at all costs. The cost is usually in the form of pain and suffering by the premium payer.

There is nothing wrong with socialism.  Socialism's biggest advocates have been Bush and Paulson so how can socialism be wrong?



In so far as nationalizing the oil companies, I would have to oppose that solely because it would involve the confiscation of privately owned assets.  I would propose instead that a competing government interest be created.  Watch oil prices fall when the companies have to compete with those on Government salaries. And watch the local oil reserves fly open when the government is pressured to ensure its pet project does not fail.

< Message edited by Vaughner -- 2/8/2009 10:18:47 AM >

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This above all else, to thine own self be true

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RE: Playing the fool in politics - 2/8/2009 10:21:37 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

What I always find curious is everyone who says something like:
"First off let me state I am neither Republican nor Democrat.  I trust neither party to actually care about me or anyone else."
always goes on to post something straight out of the conservative Republican handbook




      Right.  Because Republicans are 100% baaa-aad.  Nothing, anywhere in conservative philosophy is of any use at all.  To agree with one word Rush Limbaugh says on any topic is to swallow all of his bloviation whole.

      additional comment deleted

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 2/8/2009 10:24:26 AM >

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Playing the fool in politics - 2/8/2009 10:24:14 AM   
Lorr47


Posts: 862
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vaughner

You seem to be operating under the assumption that I think Bush is right.  You know what assuming does.

In so far as your x, that is tragic what happened to her I won't refute that.  The system is not perfect, and while I know it is of little comfort if they are forced to pay for everyone then eventually no one gets anything.  And part  of the reason they are forced to be so preditorial is because of how many who have no means of payent what so ever they are forced to provide care to.  While I do not know all the particulars of this case it sounds like a slam-dunk lawsuit in her favor so long as she knew what she was suing for.  By virtue of my major I happen to know a little about this.  If you like you can send me a Cmail and I will send you some relevant information.


I was not assuming that you think that Bush was correct.  The people here are too intelligent to think Bush was right on much of anything.  I was merely stating a truism.  There is nothing wrong with socialistic policies/solutions for some problems.  We have a type of government that has some socialistic programs and some capitalistic programs.  Bush resorted to socialistic solutions for some problems but mismanaged them so badly that doing nothing might have been better.

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RE: Playing the fool in politics - 2/8/2009 10:28:06 AM   
Lorr47


Posts: 862
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

What I always find curious is everyone who says something like:
"First off let me state I am neither Republican nor Democrat.  I trust neither party to actually care about me or anyone else."
always goes on to post something straight out of the conservative Republican handbook




     Right.  Because Republicans are 100% baaa-aad.  Nothing, anywhere in conservative philosophy is of any use at all.  To agree with one word Rush Limbaugh says on any topic is to swallow all of his bloviation whole.

     additional comment deleted


Another truism.

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RE: Playing the fool in politics - 2/8/2009 12:04:17 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

     Right.  Because Republicans are 100% baaa-aad.  Nothing, anywhere in conservative philosophy is of any use at all.  To agree with one word Rush Limbaugh says on any topic is to swallow all of his bloviation whole.

     additional comment deleted


Absolutely.

Finally, you've come around.

I knew you had it in you.

I'm so proud.

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RE: Playing the fool in politics - 2/8/2009 12:56:22 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Playing the fool in politics - 2/8/2009 1:26:19 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		     Ok.  Health care.  I'm not a proponent of a massive single-payer or gov't operated system.  This is simply because I see what a fantastic job the gov't does with anything it runs.  Then we ALL get treated like the participants of the Veterans or Social Security administration programs. 

    At the same time, the status quo is getting steadily worse.  Our emergency rooms are overwhelmed.  I would support a greatly expanded system of community based clinics and low/no cost urgent care facilities. 

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Playing the fool in politics - 2/8/2009 1:33:03 PM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

NOBODY has a God given right to enter the United States of America. 


I don't know why you assume anyone in their right mind would even want to.

The whole premise behind any average American's refusal to get on board with socialized health care is that they don't want to be responsible to 'look out for the other guy'.

quote:

You are responsible for your own well being, no matter how badly you wish it to be someone else's obligation.


Not in any utopic vision that your friend George Washington had in mind.  I do believe he envisioned quite the opposite..that man helped his fellow man.

which reverts back to my first comment

Go ahead, treat your poor badly, let people starve and be sickly.  Because of those ipods and shiney hypnotic gadgets held by the multitudes you all look like a third world in denial.

To bitch about corporations second hand does nothing.  Research any given company and boycott all sectors and co-sponsored subsidiary that they hold/own.  Only way to hit these people is where it counts. 

But likely you won't....later this week you will fill up at an Exxon buy a pack of smokes and keep an internet payment of upwards of $40/month then complain you can't afford health/life insurance.

Priorities yup yup.  Take care of number one (you), all 303,824,640 of ya.  We all know what happens when that occurs.  See: Lord of the Flies by William Golding for reference.

and good luck with dat!


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RE: Playing the fool in politics - 2/8/2009 1:43:31 PM   
aravain


Posts: 1211
Joined: 8/26/2008
Status: offline 		To be honest I couldn't read anything in the second issue... wall of text syndrome strikes when I've been caffeinated (I'm likely to come back and read later, when I can focus). This is all in response to the very beginning.

I agree, that we pay certain people too much in general for doing things that... really aren't noteworthy. I don't, personally, think that there should BE professional athleticism... and I find it disgraceful that we pay people to *play* sports.

I have radical views when it comes to entertainment in general (at least, according to anyone I've ever talked to about them).

I think that we should pay people for things that benefit society (and no, watching sports or other mindless forms of entertainment don't benefit society. You can entertain your fucking self, or actually watch someone produce art). Most entertainers, in my mind, are robbing pretty much everyone who buys into it. If someone is doing something for 'art' that's one thing (though I will admit that I don't think that ANYONE'S art alone should be enough to support them), but many people are on this just for a gravy train and I *really* don't find any athletic accomplishments 'admirable' at all. Pointless? Yes.

Why not go out and play a sport yourself, instead of watching other people do it? Takes the same amount of time, is twice as fun (and social), and much more healthy. Then again, I *HATE* watching sports, sitting through concerts, etc., maybe that's where my view comes from.

Sorry, random rant. I'll come back and re-read the second half later.

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RE: Playing the fool in politics - 2/8/2009 1:54:37 PM   
Vaughner


Posts: 381
Joined: 5/30/2008
Status: offline 		My apologies for the wall of text, when I am without my caffeine my literary mechanics go straight to hell.

_____________________________

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RE: Playing the fool in politics - 2/8/2009 2:15:56 PM   
aravain


Posts: 1211
Joined: 8/26/2008
Status: offline 		I know the feeling :) No apologies needed, trust me, it's entirely my problem!

Also, WOW! Over 600 posts! Go me!

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RE: Playing the fool in politics - 2/8/2009 3:54:35 PM   
Lorr47


Posts: 862
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

    Ok.  Health care.  I'm not a proponent of a massive single-payer or gov't operated system.  This is simply because I see what a fantastic job the gov't does with anything it runs.  Then we ALL get treated like the participants of the Veterans or Social Security administration programs. 

   At the same time, the status quo is getting steadily worse.  Our emergency rooms are overwhelmed.  I would support a greatly expanded system of community based clinics and low/no cost urgent care facilities. 


I would back an expanded system of clinics if you mean equipping some with basic items as an x ray machine.  I went to a clinic for my arm.  Their limitations were explained.  I have no gripes.  The clinic was up front and truthful.  I decided on the conservative approach that they could give.  It turned out to be a tumor which destroyed the lower bone in my forearm and severely damaged the other main bone. The clinic could not have caught the problem; no x ray machine.  Now I have to have bones from a cadaver put in there somehow.  That is after they figure out how to destroy the part of the tumor still there wrapped up with the nerves. False economy.  Only enough money to pay one set of medical bills.

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RE: Playing the fool in politics - 2/8/2009 5:28:04 PM   
MasterShake69


Posts: 752
Joined: 11/30/2005
Status: offline 		Usually on a site like this one, it’s because they are scared of the repercussions.  One of the most frequent limits subs and slaves have is conservatives.  That is especially true in NY.
In the late 90's, it was usually a tactic of the left especially during all the Clinton scandals.
How many years did Bill Maher pretend he wasnt a liberal?  It was all during the clinton years.




quote:

universal already because it is expensive. Lets take a cardiothorasic surgeon who can make anywhere from 250K a year to 1 million a year. "Oh man, those damn Doctors are greedy, they make too much money!"
Are you serious? Before bitching that Doctors, drug companies, and the like make too much money, lets take a look at our society that pays atheletes ten times or more what these doctors make to entertain us one week out of a fraction of the year. On top of that, people are in different ranges of intelligence and work ethic. Not everyone has the inelligence, and work ethic to be a Doctor, to be the drug creating scientist, or the psychologist who treats the problemed child. If you don't pay these people something similar to what their talents could net them in other fields, then only those with a true passion will go into that field. And no, that will not provide nearly enough people. Look at the shortages of military, police, and teachers in this country and tell me if you don't see a connection.
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

What I always find curious is everyone who says something like:
"First off let me state I am neither Republican nor Democrat.  I trust neither party to actually care about me or anyone else."
always goes on to post something straight out of the conservative Republican handbook


(in reply to rulemylife)
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