RE: Realism in promises

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kallisto -> RE: Realism in promises (2/10/2009 4:22:09 PM)
I think people get swept up in the idea of love and forever and always. I think people throw around "promises" because they think that's what the other person wants to hear. There's 3 people in this world that I can honestly say I will love them until death us part and that's my 3 ums. Like LadyPact said, I have to said to them that I will love you forever, but I don't like you nor what you've done right now. My first Dom was my husband and we were together until his death. The last Dom, we very simply agreed from the beginning that we would love and nuture each other and our relationship until we felt that we could no longer go forward in our relationship. That's what we did. We ended knowing we had done everything we could and had no regrets. Neither one of us felt as though we had failed. Neither one of us felt as though we had been lied to and betrayed by something the other one said. I believe that by going into a relationship not under false pretenses of "forever and always", but in the today and the now and always looking for tomorrow to be at least as good as today is (if not better), is the way to be in a relationship. Forever will always be there. The goal is to be together, in the here and now.

Sexycelticlady -> RE: Realism in promises (2/10/2009 6:44:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovingpet Relational commitments are sterner stuff than a contract, a business arrangement, or any other such thing that is enacted upon cold, nonliving entities. I have feelings as does my partner. Some of this sounds incredibly cold (not speaking to any particular post). If I am not content. If I find another path. If I feel trapped. If I am being hurt. There is something common to all of this. "I". Where's the we? Sometimes commitment to another is inconvenient. Sometimes it is unfulfilling for an undeterminable period of time. Sometimes it is hard. Sometimes it actually means that real and deep wounding occurs. I bear up under these things and keep my end. I cannot make such a decision for my partner, but have to trust that those words were not void and carried meaning for him/her as well. Regardless of another's decision, I chose to love, care, and be there for that person for a lifetime and beyond and I will do so and their decision has no bearing on that. If we come out the other side together (as a couple), then there is a time when difficulties pass, comfort increases again, we fill each other to overflowing once again, it all comes easy, and we begin to help each other heal from those dark times. It is a very long view. It goes against instant gratification. It is commitment. lovingpet There is only a "we" if BOTH people in the relationship are prepared to work at it and to look honestly at the issues and how to resolve them. The "we" is important until it becomes damaging (and I mean in the context of actually being harmful either mentally, as in my case, or physically) to the "I". When harm is being done to the "I" the responsibility for their own life rests with the "I" not the "we" and sometimes that responsibility means that the person has to walk away. I struggled for months trying to make my marriage work as I was committed, and I put away the damage that was being done to me in order to try and save the us. It reached a climax when the only exit I felt I had left was to end my life, unsuccessfully as it turned out. The only person we can control is ourselves and no matter how hard we work at something there are times when we have to accept that no amount of willingness or care or effort will change the way others act, times when we have to see the truth. It would have been easier to stay with my husband, leaving was one of the hardest things I have ever had to do and part of me will always care, because of who I am. It is not always about "instant gratification" and putting the "I" first and foremost is not always wrong, although society teaches us differently.

DavanKael -> RE: Realism in promises (2/10/2009 6:50:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW quote: I am wildly traumatized by the idea of significant relationships being transitory. Of course, one could get all philosophical and speak of time as relative blah, blah, blah but, seriously, were I to think that a truly partnered relationship was time-limited, I would not be in it; I wouldn't consider it a spousal or truly partnered relationship. I am not judging the validity of transitory relationships for others if that is their choosing, I am viscerally and emotionally reacting to the idea of lack of permanence. I hold love with the utmost gravity and also with the most bright joy and awe and once I grow to love someone, were they to go away, a piece of myself is gone. That is an agony I'd prefer to avoid as much as possible; my preference is to love permanently and deeply. I think that this is a misconception of what it is that creates permanence in a relationship -- that it is an unenforceable promise, which really has no 'bite' since we are incapable of knowing the future and are -literally- IMO, swearing a false oath which we cannot assure can be followed through on, that makes a relationship 'permanent', rather than the work between the participants that gives a relationship its 'holding power'. It seems to me that there is a profound flaw in the concept that we are doomed to spend the rest of our lives without committed relationships if we won't give a promise that has no substance to start out the relationship. To me, what makes a relationship committed is the -ongoing-, moment-to-moment nurturing of that relationship. It isn't some promise that has no way of being enforced... it is the continuing will of the participants, who come into the relationship with the understanding that each moment that they share is precious, will never be repeated in the entire universe, and that it is the abiding desire to nurture what they have created that makes a 'relationship'. I've found, in my own experiences, that sometimes we ignore the small signs of incompatibility early in relationships, perhaps with the thought that if we can just get the other person or people involved to "promise" that they'll hang in forever, those incompatibilities will somehow magically fade away. Then, we are surprised... shocked, even... when time passes and the incompatibilities become more pronounced rather than fading away, and resentment starts creeping silently into the corners of the relationship, where it waits like a silent thief, waiting to steal any brief joy of reprieve. If it is the day-to-day work of sustaining a relationship that makes it strong, then why not just -do it- without the unenforceable vow? Perhaps the general unenforcability of most promises is part of what makes them so powerful. I mean, the commitment, the vow, the intent, the integrity, and having the ability to believe, to hope, to have faith that they will be kept is part of what makes them so powerful. Word is bond. Such things are either meaningful to/for a person and are an aspect of who they are to their core or they are just words. I think the extremity is somehow important. Perhaps I am babbling. There's something that offers security and comfort within a promise that one is able to believe, to feel to the core of their soul. There is also power in a promise: to keep it or not. I haven't ever tried to get someone to change or to behave a certain way by getting them to buy into a promise. A person makes or breaks a promise of his or her own free will. Davan

Huntertn -> RE: Realism in promises (2/10/2009 7:51:24 PM)
I kept those vow's till It was was past time. I didn't break them she did....now..while I need a sub..I don't have to have one..and sometimes I wonder at myself over it....heartbreak only stops if you let it....Huntertn

lovingpet -> RE: Realism in promises (2/11/2009 4:15:47 PM)
While I am the first one to agree that there is a such thing as abuse within relationships, and some of it severe enough to constitute the breaking of the vows in and of itself and thereby absolving the abused party of any further responsibility, I have experience enough to know that things can get very dramatic when people are frustrated, bored, or uninspired. Abuse, in my mind, is very specific (still containing all the many manifestations that are recognized but in a more narrow construing). In cases of abuse, the OFFENDER breaks the vow. Of course, the trick to successful abuse is to have the other person believe things are falling apart because of him/her. By all means, it is time to go. Now I have seen relationships successfully reestablished after long patterns of abuse and they thrive to this day. It is rare, but it can happen. It takes two. It ALWAYS takes two to make a relationship work. I know of what I am capable within a given relationship, then I can speak to that. I can only take at face value what the other person says. It's a faith thing. It's a self direction thing. I have A LOT of control over whether I can work through the problems in a relationship. I don't have ALL the power. I will never sit and judge whether someone had good reason for ending a relationship. If they say they did, then that is enough for me. I will say that the soaring divorce rates cannot all be such insurmountable circumstances. I don't see the staying power, and in some cases, the effort to stay. Relationships are disposable when they aren't quite as fit as they once were. If my marriage were to end today it would be because it is not particularly beneficial for my husband to be married to me right now. I am sick, unable to uphold household and career tasks, have significant and unpredictable mood issues due organically to my medical issues. I am pretty well a drain in every possible way. We persevere because that was the promise we made to each other. Right now it is probably the only reason we keep on. This too shall pass and we will be much better for it. I would hate to think I was so disposable and replaceable. We choose to put forth the effort...whatever it takes. WE do. I understand that if one of the "we" is unwilling then both wind up defaulting. That's just it. I made a very careful choice. I was in no rush and managed to be objective in deciding to make this vow and accept his in return. I agree with DavanKael that the vow is so powerful BECAUSE it cannot be enforced in the more traditional sense. It is the power of the wills of two people that must enforce it. Someone who is willing to work that hard to make sure we are in each other's lives for the long haul makes my heart go thump thump. Especially when I equally desire it. lovingpet

ExSteelAgain -> RE: Realism in promises (2/11/2009 5:46:21 PM)
What happens is that one party does change/tire/grow/need space or whatever while the other is still honoring a mutual promise. It is not something that's easy to justify.

StormsSlave -> RE: Realism in promises (2/11/2009 9:29:30 PM)
When I was young, I didn't fully understand the implications of a broken promise. Not that I left a mile of them in my wake or anything, but there have been a few key moments in life that I could have chosen a different path and chose the one that caused the broken promise. The moments in my life that I regret are not the moments when I hurt myself, but when my choices hurt those that I love. 2008 was a banner year, in that I was honored to keep three of the most earnest promises I have ever made. I'm only grateful to the people to whom I made the promises for believing in me to keep them. I now take my word with the gravest of meaning. If I give my word, you can rest assured that I will do as I said I will do. To that end, I am very careful about giving it, unless I am sure of my ability to keep it. I have agreed to death do us part the last day of 2008, and meant it as earnestly as the other three. Our circumstances being as they are, that may not be as long as either of us would like it to be.

SailingBum -> RE: Realism in promises (2/11/2009 10:06:51 PM)
Isn't it kinda obvious that promises are not kept the divorce rate is 50%? BadOne

DavanKael -> RE: Realism in promises (2/11/2009 10:11:52 PM)
Actually, the odds are even worse than that: 58% last I heard...but, if you're getting into a relationship thinking you're playing the winning side of odds, you may not be functioning within the realm of reality. Of course, 'the odds' have nothing to do with it, really. Perhaps rarity is another thing that makes a promise kept all the more precious: screw the diamonds, I'll take an honored and honorable promise every day of the week! :> Davan

Surata -> RE: Realism in promises (2/11/2009 10:43:28 PM)
The only promises I make anymore are to myself, and I have yet to break a single one of them.

cantilena -> RE: Realism in promises (2/12/2009 3:16:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovingpet While I am the first one to agree that there is a such thing as abuse within relationships, and some of it severe enough to constitute the breaking of the vows in and of itself and thereby absolving the abused party of any further responsibility, I have experience enough to know that things can get very dramatic when people are frustrated, bored, or uninspired. Abuse, in my mind, is very specific (still containing all the many manifestations that are recognized but in a more narrow construing). In cases of abuse, the OFFENDER breaks the vow. Of course, the trick to successful abuse is to have the other person believe things are falling apart because of him/her. By all means, it is time to go. Now I have seen relationships successfully reestablished after long patterns of abuse and they thrive to this day. It is rare, but it can happen. It takes two. It ALWAYS takes two to make a relationship work. I know of what I am capable within a given relationship, then I can speak to that. I can only take at face value what the other person says. It's a faith thing. It's a self direction thing. I have A LOT of control over whether I can work through the problems in a relationship. I don't have ALL the power. I will never sit and judge whether someone had good reason for ending a relationship. If they say they did, then that is enough for me. I will say that the soaring divorce rates cannot all be such insurmountable circumstances. I don't see the staying power, and in some cases, the effort to stay. Relationships are disposable when they aren't quite as fit as they once were. If my marriage were to end today it would be because it is not particularly beneficial for my husband to be married to me right now. I am sick, unable to uphold household and career tasks, have significant and unpredictable mood issues due organically to my medical issues. I am pretty well a drain in every possible way. We persevere because that was the promise we made to each other. Right now it is probably the only reason we keep on. This too shall pass and we will be much better for it. I would hate to think I was so disposable and replaceable. We choose to put forth the effort...whatever it takes. WE do. I understand that if one of the "we" is unwilling then both wind up defaulting. That's just it. I made a very careful choice. I was in no rush and managed to be objective in deciding to make this vow and accept his in return. I agree with DavanKael that the vow is so powerful BECAUSE it cannot be enforced in the more traditional sense. It is the power of the wills of two people that must enforce it. Someone who is willing to work that hard to make sure we are in each other's lives for the long haul makes my heart go thump thump. Especially when I equally desire it. lovingpet lovingpet... all of your posts in this thread resonate in my opinion with the wisdom of realistic expectations and with promises made fully from the left side of the brain. With the experience of actually living through those "better" times and "worse" times, "bored" times and "excited" times, "loving" times and "loathing" times. And as you said, survived through those times to see the other side again. There's nothing easy about it. Nothing. If both people approached the relationship in the same way at the outset, and continue through many years to approach it in the same way... promises of the magnitude involved in marriage do indeed have a very good chance of success. I believe the hypercritical part of it is the joint ownership of the promises. Are both people prepared to do the sometimes very unsexy work involved? In that sense, in answer to the OP... it is my belief that we are in control of our commitments when we make them as long as they are fully shared. I think it depends a lot on how people perceive their right to be happy every year of life vs how they perceive the importance of the commitment. There's no right or wrong answer. Everyone has their own values, and that's A-OK... the trick is hooking up with somebody who largely shares those values. It's hard because many (most?) times, that kind of compatibility may not be apparent for years beyond the honeymoon phase. So while I don't necessarily like to admit it, success at that trick can be something of a crapshoot.

oceanwynds -> RE: Realism in promises (2/12/2009 6:17:23 AM)
Only promise from Sir that I would accept is he be true to himself. In that, I can decide to serve or not. Sir doesnt want a relationship that has promises of the future. It is not in his make up. It is fine with me, since i not looking for promises of the future either. I know i am different in how i view life, and i am fine with that. I honor my differences and his.

sparkyRBF -> RE: Realism in promises (2/12/2009 5:49:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW I am curious to hear from people who make or have made these kinds of promises -- who promise "forever", and "always", and intimate that they will never change, and that the person they are with will never change, in their feelings towards one another. I am interested in the self-talk that people do when they are considering making such 'lifelong' promises, for which there can be no guarantee, when a promise intimates just such a guarantee -- something one should be able to count on. So... if you've made promises about loving forever, being faithful forever, or taking care of/keeping someone forever, what thought process goes through your mind, and how do you consider the dichotomy that human beings change, and that relationships mutate, people change and grow apart, and that we cannot always control who we end up becoming attracted to. I am also interested in how those who have succeeded thus far, and those whose relationships, made under such promises, have ended, feel about such promises going forward. I have promised "til death do us part" twice. The thought process behind the first one was: there was no thought behind it. I had become preggers, i was naive, vulnerable and told this was the next step just repeat what the preacher says. Honestly, there was no intent or thought behind it, i just wasn't thinking about the meaning of the words. Because of lessons learned in the first marriage i was very careful about making promises. Master and i lived together for 5 years before deciding to do the paperwork, and once again i said those words because the preacher said to repeat after him. I make the promise daily because honestly i don't know what tomorrow brings. Master and continuously court each other and flirt with each other so that every day we want to spend the rest of our lives together. Now, granted there are some days that aren't so sweet that I make (and I'm sure He does also) the conscience decision to stay no matter what, because i did make a promise. So what is the difference between the first time and the second? I would say love, mutual commitment, and more days of enjoying the relationship instead of 'working' on the relationship. I also think the daily commitments help keep us from growing apart. I don't have friends outside of the lifestyle, I don't do activities that don't include Master. I don't have my 'own life' so i won't 'loose myself'. I'm never lost as long as Master knows where i am. If i wanted my own life, i'd be on my own.

thetammyjo -> RE: Realism in promises (2/13/2009 8:17:54 AM)
Both Fox and I take our contracts very seriously. We spent hours going through them and Fox himself is very wary of making any promise because he considers it a matter of personal honor and duty to keep every pledge he makes. I take my end seriously too but I know life happens, he isn't so flexible about life happening so when he made his vow to be my slave that really is a forever thing in his mind regardless of his age. Any how, I suspect that how much effort goes into using contracts and promises depends on the person's background and experiences as well as their honesty about what they want. I think it's always better when it's grounded in a realistic assessment of what is probable.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Realism in promises (2/13/2009 9:38:13 AM)
I think, for me, the question that this all boils down to is: Would you consider your relationship to be as strong/valid if there were NO contract, NO promise, NO piece of paper registered with the government, and NO promises, vague or ritualized, theoretically enforceable or not... made in front of witnesses or alone... and if you knew there never would be... BUT you also knew that the person you was completely committed, for the forseeable present, to the communion you have?

thetammyjo -> RE: Realism in promises (2/13/2009 9:50:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW I think, for me, the question that this all boils down to is: Would you consider your relationship to be as strong/valid if there were NO contract, NO promise, NO piece of paper registered with the government, and NO promises, vague or ritualized, theoretically enforceable or not... made in front of witnesses or alone... and if you knew there never would be... BUT you also knew that the person you was completely committed, for the forseeable present, to the communion you have? Question back: How would know they were committed without these forms of communication? In reality all of these contracts, promises, papers, whatever are just forms of communication unless they have some legal authority which most do not. I do written contracts because in the formal period of training, especially when I've been blessed to be in multiple Ds and M/s dynamics at the same time, I wanted the written forms to help me plan and consider how things are going. If I didn't have a record of how things were progressing I risked being more subjective and less objective. I want to make decisions based on as much objective information as possible. Our current contract, now 4 years old is merely two sentences that encompasses everything we want. Anyone can write anything, that isn't surety, only the sense of honor and duty of everyone involved can fulfill the written words.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Realism in promises (2/13/2009 10:00:56 AM)
quote: How would know they were committed without these forms of communication? For me, time takes care of that issue. I've been with my current companion for 10 years. Some of the ways we inter-related have changed over time, and yet, we're still companions. We don't have a formal document that defines what we are to one another, and yet somehow we manage to communicate that... and communicate changes in us and in our counterpart that impact our communion. I'd say we're "currently committed" because right now, we have expressed that we are happy being with one another... but I would never ask her to promise that she'll stay that way forever... she may decide, tomorrow, that what we are isn't healthy for her. After all these years, she probably -wouldn't- decide something like that overnight, but it could happen... and I would help her to find her way and sort out our combined lives, and send her on her way without bitterness. To me, 'relationship' is fluid. It is like quantum physics... while an atom may exist in many places at the same time, one can only -see- it in this place in this moment... and where it has been or where it goes from there... shrugs I let time sort out what we are to one another, as it seems that the only way to really determine what a relationship is, and how it is holding up, is in retrospect in any case.

thetammyjo -> RE: Realism in promises (2/13/2009 10:07:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW quote: How would know they were committed without these forms of communication? For me, time takes care of that issue. I've been with my current companion for 10 years. Some of the ways we inter-related have changed over time, and yet, we're still companions. We don't have a formal document that defines what we are to one another, and yet somehow we manage to communicate that... and communicate changes in us and in our counterpart that impact our communion. I'd say we're "currently committed" because right now, we have expressed that we are happy being with one another... but I would never ask her to promise that she'll stay that way forever... she may decide, tomorrow, that what we are isn't healthy for her. After all these years, she probably -wouldn't- decide something like that overnight, but it could happen... and I would help her to find her way and sort out our combined lives, and send her on her way without bitterness. To me, 'relationship' is fluid. It is like quantum physics... while an atom may exist in many places at the same time, one can only -see- it in this place in this moment... and where it has been or where it goes from there... shrugs I let time sort out what we are to one another, as it seems that the only way to really determine what a relationship is, and how it is holding up, is in retrospect in any case. I think I understand. See, I'm a planner and I'm busy. I'm one of these folks that wants dates and schedules set up at least two weeks in advance. For me all this formal stuff helps arrange things so that I feel comfortable then going on and making plans in other areas of my life. Nothing is forever and anyone who uses written forms of contracts, etc, and thinks otherwise is a fool in my opinion. I mean, I could get hit by a car tomorrow and killed. Most people who use contracts though have time limits on them or regular schedules they use to evaluate things. So in that sense I think most folks are being more realistic when they use them. Or perhaps I merely associated with more realistic people because living in a fantasy world tend to annoy me after a while. If your styles of communication work for you, CallaFirestormBW, then who is anyone to tell you to do differently? And by the same token if others' styles work for them, why should we tell them differently? Contracts, all these things that you are talking about may not be things that you can grok. That's ok, we aren't meant to understand everyone, we are only human after all.

Jeptha -> RE: Realism in promises (2/13/2009 11:42:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain What happens is that one party does change/tire/grow/need space or whatever while the other is still honoring a mutual promise. It is not something that's easy to justify. An interesting point, succinctly stated. For me, I don't get the goal of "eternity" in the first place. What is the value of it? If you love someone, you love them, and that's all that can really be said or inferred about that. You can't make some sort of insurance contract for that. Or - if you can, probably the most loving thing you could do is be honest with your partner when you are ready to move on, rather than honor a contract and nourish resentment.

sparkyRBF -> RE: Realism in promises (2/15/2009 3:55:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW I think, for me, the question that this all boils down to is: Would you consider your relationship to be as strong/valid if there were NO contract, NO promise, NO piece of paper registered with the government, and NO promises, vague or ritualized, theoretically enforceable or not... made in front of witnesses or alone... and if you knew there never would be... BUT you also knew that the person you was completely committed, for the forseeable present, to the communion you have? I don't see that the contract makes the commitment. The commitment is there before the contract. The contract is just clarification of the commitment in my view. So yes, i would consider my relationship just as strong/valid if there were no contract, no marriage. And actually i kind of feel that a relationship may be stronger without the promise. You would try harder to make each other want to stay in the relationship. Always the 'tightass', the marriage thing for us was to help save us money. I could get on his insurance, we'd get a tax bonus, consolidate our car insurance, etc. The commitment is there whether the paperwork is or not. On a side note, this has reminded me of Master's first marriage proposal to me.. he said, "hey girlie, while you're out and about today, why don't you swing by the courthouse and pick up that marriage paperwork stuff" AHHHhhhh Romance!

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