RE: "Between Barack and a hard place" the politics of fear! (Full Version)

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MrRodgers -> RE: "Between Barack and a hard place" the politics of fear! (2/10/2009 1:10:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Coldwarrior57

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

I guess if he went somewhere else that the problems in Elkhart and Ft. Meyers wouldn't exist anymore cory?....
Manufacturing in Elkhart....Manufacturing you remember that don't you cory? it is what the USA used to do....the thing that made us the Dominant world economy...and housing....hmmm...seems I read something about housing lately....oh yes...I remember...there aren't any houses sellling...none being built....damn....imagine that!

Perhaps you need to check the facts.
http://www.realtor.org/research/research/ecoindicator
Existing home sales. Sales jumped up 6.5 % in december
Pending home sales index  went up 5.2 to 87.7, OK thats an interesting number.
The press would have us beleive that NO ONE IS BUYING.
Housing starts 550,000 units

Yes, we are NOT in a depression, only a deepening recession. For existing home sales at this point to jump 6.5% is almost nothing from as low as it was. Starts of 550,000 new homes is a small fraction of what is normal.

I have not read in any press that NOBODY is buying. We know that Morgan and Goldman are buying and mostly with our money.

Still can't believe the uneducated and ill informed vitriol from these boards. Using the venality, and greed of our great captains of industry and the volitile paper markets he creates as basis for such insults reveals a desire to make vacuous, rhetorical, political points rather than intelligently debate the issue at hand.

As I have also written...should I sell my $500,000 home for $200,000 so I can blame Obama. I blame the corporatist, the capitalist...his speculaton, venality and greed. I blame the regulators for looking away. I blame Wash., for genflecting at the alter of paper-profits almost all of which is speculation and over-leveaged.

And guess what kinkroids, all that wealth 'created' by wall street...wasn't there. The only way any of our paper 'wealth' was turned into cash was to find yet another buyer. Sorta Ponzi like only just as in a Ponzi, you want to be the first...not the last buyer/investor.





slvemike4u -> RE: "Between Barack and a hard place" the politics of fear! (2/10/2009 1:12:07 PM)

Do you have any idea on what homes are selling for in relationship to *actual* value as opposed to the inflated prices a few years ago ?



Well,of course you do realise how many people had their life savings tied up in those "inflated prices" a few years ago.
Oh wait a minute...you don't care,right that was their error.Those people,just like dear old aunt Pearl should of made better decisions.While the taxpayer watches their tax dollars go to bail out Wall St, Bankers and Auto Makers these people should just calmly watch their investment(their home)lose value till they owe more than it is worth.
Wouldn't that make those people ...."sheeple"




ArizonaSunSwitch -> RE: "Between Barack and a hard place" the politics of fear! (2/10/2009 1:14:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaSunSwitch


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Yeah,what we as a people should have done was elect McCain,that way Mr."country of whiners" Gramm...could be setting policy right about now.....that would of been the way to go huh Arizona.
sheeple my ass.


No, McCain wouldn't of been any better on the economy. But he wouldn't be mouthing off about mandatory public service and talking about creating a 2-3 million member "civil defense force" (brown shirts) either. He wouldn't be using the economic crisis as an opportunity to attempt to create a one party system in this country either. And if he won, at least his sorry ass wouldn't be able to hurt Arizona as much.


An attempt to create a one-party system.....wouldn't that be a Karl Rove function Arizona.
As for how much  damage Sen.McCain does or doesn't do to the great state of Arizona.....well just as in the case of Sarah Palin and Alaska,thats sort of your problem ...not ours.


No it's your parties function as directly elicited by Chuck Schumer (paraphrased) "We're not going to lose another election for 30 years".

Already practiced through voter fraud starting with Al Gore in Florida in 2000 and what'shisname in Michigan currently and now to be enhanced with 4.3 billions dollars being given to Acorn in the just passed "stimulus" plan.

Soon to be attempted through media censorship under the "fairness doctrine".

Soon to be attempted through the granting of citizenship to 20 million illegal aliens who will immediately have rights to import their entire family and who lean to vote towards whoever provides them free services. Of course, the people of cuba who are of the same heritage of the favored illegal aliens won't be showed these same courtesies (they tend to vote republican, since they already come from a government system that the Democrats are so eager to implement here).






ArizonaSunSwitch -> RE: "Between Barack and a hard place" the politics of fear! (2/10/2009 1:21:51 PM)

quote:



As I have also written...should I sell my $500,000 home for $200,000 so I can blame Obama. I blame the corporatist, the capitalist...his speculaton, venality and greed. I blame the regulators for looking away. I blame Wash., for genflecting at the alter of paper-profits almost all of which is speculation and over-leveaged.



Yeah, blame everyone but yourself. There are plenty of investors that divested themselves of real estate when they *saw* the bubble being created. They didn't have an monopoly on information, you had the same information available to you.

Are you of the belief that proping up the value of a $200,000 house back up to an unwarranted $500,000 is going to help the economy ? Or are you just hoping it'll happen long enough for you to sell ?

Your "regulators" created the rules that forced banks to fund mortgages for reasons other than a recipients ability to pay. They then sold those mortgages to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac who were mandated that half their loan portfolio be subprime mortgages.

The artificial increase in the supply of buyers created the housing bubble that drove your house to $500k.

I'm sorry you bought at the top of the market. I'm sorrier i did the same. My problem isn't the taxpayer's problem and neither is yours.




rulemylife -> RE: "Between Barack and a hard place" the politics of fear! (2/10/2009 1:37:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaSunSwitch


Yes, those closed out by artificially inflated prices are now not locked out of the market. Such a tragedy.

And yes, I'm underwater on my house. *My* mistake and problem to fix not my neighbours.

All bubbles are created by government interference in the free market. Put the blame where it belongs.




Those prices were largely inflated by speculators who dumped investment dollars on the housing market after the stock market slowed post 9/11. 

Those dollars further inflated the bubble and people saw housing as a safe investment that was going to continue to grow.

Didn't quite work out that way, but that was your free market at work.  Government interference had nothing to do with it.

Housing prices in Florida, California, and many other over-inflated and over-built areas started to crash long before the mortgage crisis.  




Cagey18 -> RE: "Between Barack and a hard place" the politics of fear! (2/10/2009 1:51:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaSunSwitch


Yes, those closed out by artificially inflated prices are now not locked out of the market. Such a tragedy.

And yes, I'm underwater on my house. *My* mistake and problem to fix not my neighbours.

All bubbles are created by government interference in the free market. Put the blame where it belongs.




Those prices were largely inflated by speculators who dumped investment dollars on the housing market after the stock market slowed post 9/11. 

Those dollars further inflated the bubble and people saw housing as a safe investment that was going to continue to grow.

Didn't quite work out that way, but that was your free market at work.  Government interference had nothing to do with it.

Housing prices in Florida, California, and many other over-inflated and over-built areas started to crash long before the mortgage crisis.  



Not just speculators, but the lack of government oversight, namely our friend the credit default swap.  These "insurance policies" for mortgage portfolios made them such a sweet deal, that even more speculators entered the fray, creating even more demand for mortgage portfolios, creating even more demand for subprime mortgages, creating even more of a housing bubble...

Who wrote the legislation for our friend the credit default swap, which specifically excluded government oversight?  Former Sen. Phil Gramm (R-Texas), who rumor has it would have been Treasury Secretary under John McCain. 

Heckuva job Grammie!




Vendaval -> RE: "Between Barack and a hard place" the politics of fear! (2/10/2009 1:59:21 PM)

cory,
 
Have you been down to the local unemployment offices lately or food banks?  What is going on where you live right now?




xBullx -> RE: "Between Barack and a hard place" the politics of fear! (2/10/2009 2:06:58 PM)

-fast reply-

Vote Libertarian...................!!!

We need a change back to what founded this Nation and get away from thye present day Politics of the Norm. Say what you want both parties are the same under their superficial exteriors, they simply believe in Big Government and greed.

It's like a playoff game with only two teams left; the last one to hold the ball wins. Both parties want us to surrender our freedom to their superior wisdom.

FFS, a site like this one should see that ahead of the rest.




rulemylife -> RE: "Between Barack and a hard place" the politics of fear! (2/10/2009 2:09:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaSunSwitch

Already practiced through voter fraud starting with Al Gore in Florida in 2000 ..............


Let's see if we can recap here. 

Al Gore won the popular vote.

The electoral vote came down to a state that just happened to have his opponent's brother as Governor.

The Gore campaign asked for a recount of the close popular vote in that state, which was turned down by Florida's Secretary of State, a Republican who also just happened to be co-chairperson of the Bush campaign staff in that state.

After a lengthy legal battle, the Florida Supreme Court granted a recount.

Despite their states' rights mantra, the Republican Party chose not to abide by the decision of the highest court in the state. 

They took their case to the conservative majority of the Supreme Court, which not surprisingly, voted along party lines, overrode the Florida Supreme Court decision, stopped the recount, and awarded the Presidency to Bush.

But Al Gore is guilty of voter fraud?

I can't WAIT to hear this one.




ArizonaSunSwitch -> RE: "Between Barack and a hard place" the politics of fear! (2/10/2009 2:11:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Do you have any idea on what homes are selling for in relationship to *actual* value as opposed to the inflated prices a few years ago ?



Well,of course you do realise how many people had their life savings tied up in those "inflated prices" a few years ago.
Oh wait a minute...you don't care,right that was their error.Those people,just like dear old aunt Pearl should of made better decisions.While the taxpayer watches their tax dollars go to bail out Wall St, Bankers and Auto Makers these people should just calmly watch their investment(their home)lose value till they owe more than it is worth.
Wouldn't that make those people ...."sheeple"


yeah I realise how many people are getting fucked in this situation. I'm one of them. Instead of whining and insisting the government fuck everyone else in an attempt to make me whole (which is impossible considering how many people are caught in this) I accept my situation is my own doing. Instead i'm trying, 1). to learn how the investors that figured this shit out and got out before the fall did that, so I don't make the same mistake again. 2). I'm trying to remain employed long enough so I can pay my mortgage and frankly buy one of my neighbors condo's from the bank for $30K when this market bottoms, so I'll have a place to live if the bank doesn't blink when I *negotiate* a reduction in my 110k mortgage (on a 160k peak condo). God I'm a fucking idiot for putting 30 percent down.





rulemylife -> RE: "Between Barack and a hard place" the politics of fear! (2/10/2009 2:20:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaSunSwitch

Yeah, blame everyone but yourself. There are plenty of investors that divested themselves of real estate when they *saw* the bubble being created. They didn't have an monopoly on information, you had the same information available to you.


If investors had divested themselves of real estate "when they saw the bubble being created" there would have been no bubble. 

It takes buying to create a housing bubble and drive up prices.  Just as in the speculation that gave us $150 a barrel oil prices. 






DomKen -> RE: "Between Barack and a hard place" the politics of fear! (2/10/2009 2:23:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaSunSwitch


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18

Let's evaluate these two "fear" scenarios, shall we?

Chances of terrorism affecting you or your loved ones:  Damn near zero



Oh bullshit, I knew two people that were supposed to be in the WTC that day. One called in sick. One was supposed to be on the top floor of the first tower hit at 8am. His habitual 2 hour lateness saved his life.

You might want to visit Manhattan sometime, there's still a big hole there, it's not a figment of W's imagination.

population of the US in 2001: 278,058,881 (July est.)
Number killed on 9/11 by the attacks 2998 (excluding the hijackers)
chance that any one person in the US would be killed on 9/11:  0.00001
Now I only have a B.S. in Mathematics but a one/thousandths of one percent chance is pretty damn zero imo.




Cagey18 -> RE: "Between Barack and a hard place" the politics of fear! (2/10/2009 2:31:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
population of the US in 2001: 278,058,881 (July est.)
Number killed on 9/11 by the attacks 2998 (excluding the hijackers)
chance that any one person in the US would be killed on 9/11:  0.00001
Now I only have a B.S. in Mathematics but a one/thousandths of one percent chance is pretty damn zero imo.


Ooh, facts.  No no no, rightwingers hate those.  Anecdotes and rants only please, preferably copy-and-pasted from the stuff they email each other.

Thanks in advance.

[;)]





Mercnbeth -> RE: "Between Barack and a hard place" the politics of fear! (2/10/2009 2:39:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaSunSwitch
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18
Let's evaluate these two "fear" scenarios, shall we?
Chances of terrorism affecting you or your loved ones:  Damn near zero


Oh bullshit, I knew two people that were supposed to be in the WTC that day. One called in sick. One was supposed to be on the top floor of the first tower hit at 8am. His habitual 2 hour lateness saved his life.

You might want to visit Manhattan sometime, there's still a big hole there, it's not a figment of W's imagination.

population of the US in 2001: 278,058,881 (July est.)
Number killed on 9/11 by the attacks 2998 (excluding the hijackers)
chance that any one person in the US would be killed on 9/11:  0.00001
Now I only have a B.S. in Mathematics but a one/thousandths of one percent chance is pretty damn zero imo.


Yeah - Those people who died were statistical anomalies! That's the way it goes! Hell - put in those intelligent terms we should have just bulldozed away the debris, blacktopped the area and opened up a well needed parking lot in lower Manhattan.

DK, Why not apply your BS Mathematical numbers and statistical analysis to the deaths and collateral damage of Katrina  - FUCK those assholes in New Orleans knew they were living below sea level. Considering fewer people died there - why spend all that money affecting an inconsequential statistical percentage?

"Damn Near Zero!" chance that will happen again - Fuck levees just supply some sand and a few bags.

Good point!  




ArizonaSunSwitch -> RE: "Between Barack and a hard place" the politics of fear! (2/10/2009 2:41:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaSunSwitch

Already practiced through voter fraud starting with Al Gore in Florida in 2000 ..............


Let's see if we can recap here. 

Al Gore won the popular vote.


Irrelevant that's not how the constitution directs the election of the President and it's one of the last bastions where the government still honors the consitution.

quote:



The electoral vote came down to a state that just happened to have his opponent's brother as Governor.



Irrelevant, Gore only asked for recounts in districts that Democrats had the majority and therefore controlled the polling places.

quote:



The Gore campaign asked for a recount of the close popular vote in that state, which was turned down by Florida's Secretary of State, a Republican who also just happened to be co-chairperson of the Bush campaign staff in that state.

After a lengthy legal battle, the Florida Supreme Court granted a recount.

Despite their states' rights mantra, the Republican Party chose not to abide by the decision of the highest court in the state. 

They took their case to the conservative majority of the Supreme Court, which not surprisingly, voted along party lines, overrode the Florida Supreme Court decision, stopped the recount, and awarded the Presidency to Bush.

But Al Gore is guilty of voter fraud?




Try to understand, this is very simple and being used now by Al Franken and in the past by Christie (successfully) in Washington State.

Democrat loses a state by a small amount.

Said Democrat argues for a recount *only* in counties where he/she won by the largest margin.

The Democrat controlled polling place begins taking recounts, maybe the first recount is fair, maybe.

Said polling places alters it's counting rules a bit and recounts again or *finds* ballots. Invariably said Democrat politician gains votes as any relaxing of the rules will statistically add votes to the politician that won the district by a landslide in the first place. This process repeats until the Democrat is ahead.

Said Democrat begins to sue to prevent any further recounts.

Along the way, the opponent sues to prevent this bullshit. In florida's case the supreme court filled with democrat partisan's supported the stealing of the election. The Supreme court reversed that decision, took a load of shit about it and has refused to intervene again so far.

You can replace "said Democrat" with Al Gore, Al Franken, or Christine Gregoire. The former was the pioneer, the latter was successful and Franken is still in play. Al Gore didn't get to the "Said Democrat begins to sue" phase because of the supreme court intervention and also because the cubans went ape shit in one of the major district's he was using in his attempt to steal the election.

Elian Gonzalez cost you guys Florida and the 2000 Presidential election not your fantasies about disenfranchised voters. The cuban election turn-out and the support they gave George Bush was far higher than the margin of the legitimate count. God does work in mysterious ways. One sacrificed little boy saved this country from having Al Gore in the White House when 9/11 occurred.

*DEMOCRATS* created the controversial butterfly ballot.
*DEMOCRATS* controlled the polling places where the punch machines were used and hanging chads only occur in those machines when multiple ballots (ie fraud) are inserted in those machines.

Our polling system is a disgrace.

edited to fix quoting and color bleed.

Another edit:

I forgot, Al Gore *did* sue to prevent late absentee ballots from overseas military personnel from being counted. There's overriding federal legislation to allow those votes to count regardless of state laws.





DomKen -> RE: "Between Barack and a hard place" the politics of fear! (2/10/2009 2:50:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaSunSwitch
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18
Let's evaluate these two "fear" scenarios, shall we?
Chances of terrorism affecting you or your loved ones:  Damn near zero


Oh bullshit, I knew two people that were supposed to be in the WTC that day. One called in sick. One was supposed to be on the top floor of the first tower hit at 8am. His habitual 2 hour lateness saved his life.

You might want to visit Manhattan sometime, there's still a big hole there, it's not a figment of W's imagination.

population of the US in 2001: 278,058,881 (July est.)
Number killed on 9/11 by the attacks 2998 (excluding the hijackers)
chance that any one person in the US would be killed on 9/11:  0.00001
Now I only have a B.S. in Mathematics but a one/thousandths of one percent chance is pretty damn zero imo.


Yeah - Those people who died were statistical anomalies! That's the way it goes! Hell - put in those intelligent terms we should have just bulldozed away the debris, blacktopped the area and opened up a well needed parking lot in lower Manhattan.

DK, Why not apply your BS Mathematical numbers and statistical analysis to the deaths and collateral damage of Katrina  - FUCK those assholes in New Orleans knew they were living below sea level. Considering fewer people died there - why spend all that money affecting an inconsequential statistical percentage?

"Damn Near Zero!" chance that will happen again - Fuck levees just supply some sand and a few bags.

Good point!  


Merc,

I realize this hits close to home for you but the truth is the truth. Truth be told if I had my way the sites would have been cleared and outwardly identical buildings put up in the exact same locations not as an insult to those who died but as a finger in the eye of anyone who thinks that one cowardly attack could change my country.

I am sorry if I upset you. It was not my intention




ArizonaSunSwitch -> RE: "Between Barack and a hard place" the politics of fear! (2/10/2009 2:58:03 PM)

quote:


Merc,

I realize this hits close to home for you but the truth is the truth. Truth be told if I had my way the sites would have been cleared and outwardly identical buildings put up in the exact same locations not as an insult to those who died but as a finger in the eye of anyone who thinks that one cowardly attack could change my country.

I am sorry if I upset you. It was not my intention


No, as Donald Trump said, Exact same buildings one floor taller.




Mercnbeth -> RE: "Between Barack and a hard place" the politics of fear! (2/10/2009 3:09:37 PM)

quote:

Merc,

I realize this hits close to home for you but the truth is the truth.
Yeah, you're right. 

There is no way that any I not take any reference regarding "truth" concerning 9/11 without personal perspective.  

Keep in mind to your point, if all decisions were based upon their statical evaluation - nobody would buy insurance. Similar to having a standing military defending the USA, it is only perceived as important and valuable the day after the occurrence when you have to use it.

No worries...




ArizonaSunSwitch -> RE: "Between Barack and a hard place" the politics of fear! (2/10/2009 3:19:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaSunSwitch


Yes, those closed out by artificially inflated prices are now not locked out of the market. Such a tragedy.

And yes, I'm underwater on my house. *My* mistake and problem to fix not my neighbours.

All bubbles are created by government interference in the free market. Put the blame where it belongs.




Those prices were largely inflated by speculators who dumped investment dollars on the housing market after the stock market slowed post 9/11. 

Those dollars further inflated the bubble and people saw housing as a safe investment that was going to continue to grow.

Didn't quite work out that way, but that was your free market at work.  Government interference had nothing to do with it.

Housing prices in Florida, California, and many other over-inflated and over-built areas started to crash long before the mortgage crisis.  


quote:

2


No they were inflated because there were a ton of buyers in the marketplace there never were there before and many of those buyers could not realistically repay the loans. They got the loans because the banks would of been fined out of existence if they didn't issue them. Thank you Christopher Dodd, Barney Frank, Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton.

As in any market if you increase demand a significant amount prices go up. Investors saw this increase, (in arizona sometimes $100k between when you signed a new house construction contract and when you closed the contract at the peak), and obviously jumped in. The smart ones sold within days of their own closing until the building developers tried to put a stop to it.

Investors increased the bubble and started it back down but Government still caused it. In a proper credit market as the prices increased less and less people would qualify for the loans. Between the government blackmail of the banks and the low interest rates it took forever for that check and balance to begin taking effect.

Many people bought their homes knowing they'd have to leave before their first APR rate adjustment. But they thought, hey, why the hell should just the investors make those quick returns, they *speculated* as much as anyone else did. And it's not my f-ing problem to bail them out. It's their problem and their mortagee's problem if they default. Of course the latter crashed the credit market and screwed up business for everyone.

Edit:

And ack, I do realise all Real Estate is local to a certain extent. In fact, certain Texas areas haven't faced depreciation at all so far.




Coldwarrior57 -> RE: "Between Barack and a hard place" the politics of fear! (2/10/2009 6:01:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaSunSwitch

Already practiced through voter fraud starting with Al Gore in Florida in 2000 ..............


Let's see if we can recap here. 

Al Gore won the popular vote.
Popular vote means what?

The electoral vote came down to a state that just happened to have his opponent's brother as Governor.
and this means what?
Forgetting al bore didnt not even carry his own state?

The Gore campaign asked for a recount of the close popular vote in that state, which was turned down by Florida's Secretary of State, a Republican who also just happened to be co-chairperson of the Bush campaign staff in that state.
the chads , pregnant chads , what the voter intended chad.

After a lengthy legal battle, the Florida Supreme Court granted a recount.

Despite their states' rights mantra, the Republican Party chose not to abide by the decision of the highest court in the state. 
I think you better look at that again it was al bore that went to scotus if I am not wrong.
They took their case to the conservative majority of the Supreme Court, which not surprisingly, voted along party lines,
overrode the Florida Supreme Court decision, stopped the recount, and awarded the Presidency to Bush.
what supreme court were you looking at !
SCOTUS is NOT conservative in any way shape or form.

But Al Gore is guilty of voter fraud?

I can't WAIT to hear this one.





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