RE: How many Bailout Plans will it take for you to give up on the idea

RE: How many Bailout Plans will it take for you to give up on the idea (Full Version)

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Vendaval -> RE: How many Bailout Plans will it take for you to give up on the idea (2/10/2009 11:56:10 PM)
[sm=boxer.gif] [sm=pompom.gif] [sm=popcorn.gif] quote: ORIGINAL: TheUtopian Most of all......I'd stop sucking corporate cock and get into the corner of the American people. That's just for starters.....

MrRodgers -> RE: How many Bailout Plans will it take for you to give up on the idea (2/11/2009 12:19:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Finally something worth bailing out - the misogynous humor of Howard Stern. quote: Sirius XM Radio Inc has been working with its advisers to prepare for a possible bankruptcy filing, the New York Times reported on its website on Tuesday, citing people close to the company. Sirius, whose radio stars include the popular shock jock Howard Stern, has also been working with the investment bank Evercore Partners. Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/11/technology/companies/11radio.html?ref=technology Good news - he'll be back on over the air radio! Two sides to that story. I say it's good play andmaybe a very good play. http://seekingalpha.com/article/95377-is-sirius-xm-stock-being-manipulated

TheUtopian -> RE: How many Bailout Plans will it take for you to give up on the idea (2/11/2009 12:25:31 AM)
One last thing : Of course you have a few dipshits / real-stupid-asses here on collarme who support ''free trade'' as its been defined over the last thirty years - But by and large, a disproportionate amount of the folks here and abroad have finally figured out that ''free trade'' represents a ''race to the bottom'' mentality and is, and will continue to be, the parasite that hollows-out the foundation from underneath our middle class. - R

Sissy4Mistress61 -> RE: How many Bailout Plans will it take for you to give up on the idea (2/11/2009 3:40:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cagey18 quote: In this case "stimulous" and "bailout" are the same thing, MASSIVE amounts of pork, "make-work" jobs that will dry up as soon as the funds that are stolen from the people to pay for this garbage dry up. Perhaps with your MA in Political Science you can explain where pork and "make work" jobs were in the banking bailout. And perhaps your three degrees on your wall can show us how you know Timothy Geithner to be a "tax cheat". And can show us which two quarters had a falling GDP (definition of recession for those without such advanced degrees) for the recession you allege existed in January 2001. I'm not an economist, as you can tell from my degrees (and no, I'm not trying to brag, just telling you what my credutentials are), but if you look at hard data you'll discover that in the 3rd quarter of 2000 we had a negative GDP of 0.5%, the 4th quarter was negative as well. That's a recession. The one that we have now is worse than the one that we had 8 years ago, but it's still a recession. It is no where near as bad as the one that we had in 1980 when Reagan was elected. Recession come and recessions go. The way to pull out of a recession is NOT to run up more debt, it's to cut taxes and allow the market to re-set. Bush did 1/2 of this right. He cut taxes, but then he spent like a drunk sailor on a 3 day binge. You can't do that, you must exercise fiscal responsibility. That's why during the Great Depression/great era of massive spending the "make-work" jobs that FDR created were the only thing that did anything in regards to unemployment numbers, the market had no money to create wealth and jobs. The unemployment rate barely dipped below 20% until World War II, which is what pulled the US out of the Great Depression, not the New Deal as is commonly and falsely believed. I do not believe that you understand what I'm talking about. My reference to "make work" had nothing to do with the 1st boondoggle. The first "bail out" and that's exactly what it was and is, is nothing short of a mess. It doesn't create jobs, has no accountability and Hank Paulson, former Treasury Secretary made a mess out of out it by giving the money to the banks without any strings attached. And in case anyone wants to defend Obama on this one, he stopped his campaign, as did McCain, so that they could run to DC and vote for it. So now we have a 2nd and even larger bailout that at least one of them pushed, and this time it wasn't McCain. True, it does create some jobs, but it's mostly pork. $54 billion to ACORN, now if that isn't payback then I don't know what is. As for Geithner being a tax cheat, IRS records show that he failed to pay just a bit over $34,000 in taxes and was magically forgiven in regards to all interest and penalties. That's a tax cheat. And if you or I had done that we'd be in some serious hot water about now, not presiding over the IRS. What we have now, what we call "freedom" is a mere shadow of what we had just a few decades ago. I'm 47 and I wonder if this country will be a country for the duration of my lifetime. I have serious doubts in regards to that. It doesn't matter which party is in power, they're both drunk on duty, spending as much as possible on their pet projects, giving money and favors to the people that put and keep them in power. I've had it with both parties. What are we to do? I can't answer that one. The "cabin the backwoods" is looking better with every passing day. All too many people vote for whoever will give them stuff, more pet projects in their district and this of course does nothing but run up the deficit and increase the national debt. Hell, it moves up so quickly that no one can really tell you how high it is. So now we're on the fast track to socialism, a failed system, where we can ration health care, because the government can't print money fast enough to pay for it, where entrepenourism is punished by high taxes and any initiative to create jobs is taken away. It really makes my blood boil to see the disaster that both parties have created in this country.

MmeGigs -> RE: How many Bailout Plans will it take for you to give up on the idea (2/11/2009 5:03:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subtex quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Judging by the stock market reaction to the Obama plan, stimulus isn't necessarily synonymous with "stimulus" is it. I think the market reaction is partially in response to the administration talking about how bad the economy is. I think that we need to stop worrying so much about Wall Street's reaction. The stock market is not an accurate indicator of the wisdom or soundness of a particular course of action, as should be bloody obvious. These are the folks who thought the stuff that got us where we are today was a great idea and asked for more. All a drop in the stock market shows us is that the people who are out there looking for a quick buck are feeling nervous. Who cares? If it went up, all that would mean is that these folks were seeing an opportunity for a fast profit for themselves.

StrangerThan -> RE: How many Bailout Plans will it take for you to give up on the idea (2/11/2009 5:07:36 AM)
What I need to avail myself of is not dictionary meanings or concepts. It is the thought that even those teetering at the end of political spectrums still have a grain of common sense left buried somewhere deep. I forget that sometimes when talking to those who hold Bush as a shining monument to conservatism and think religion = conservatism. I also forget it sometimes when talking to the messanic obama cult. I just wonder what it will be called the next time they do it. Since we can't use tired old concepts and phrases, it won't be recovery, stimulus, or bail-out. Fortunately Roget's offers plenty of options that will fit on the next set of flash cards - even when scrawled in crayon. The real question isn't over the use of terms, it is when is the bill coming due and who is going to pay it. Well, I know who. That leaves when as about the only real question left.

Cagey18 -> RE: How many Bailout Plans will it take for you to give up on the idea (2/11/2009 5:10:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sissy4Mistress61 quote: ORIGINAL: Cagey18 quote: In this case "stimulous" and "bailout" are the same thing, MASSIVE amounts of pork, "make-work" jobs that will dry up as soon as the funds that are stolen from the people to pay for this garbage dry up. Perhaps with your MA in Political Science you can explain where pork and "make work" jobs were in the banking bailout. And perhaps your three degrees on your wall can show us how you know Timothy Geithner to be a "tax cheat". And can show us which two quarters had a falling GDP (definition of recession for those without such advanced degrees) for the recession you allege existed in January 2001. I'm not an economist, as you can tell from my degrees (and no, I'm not trying to brag, just telling you what my credutentials are), but if you look at hard data you'll discover that in the 3rd quarter of 2000 we had a negative GDP of 0.5%, the 4th quarter was negative as well. That's a recession. The one that we have now is worse than the one that we had 8 years ago, but it's still a recession. Funny how you looked up 3Q 2000 to be -0.5%, but not 4Q 2000, which was +2.1%. Even a triply-degreed political scientist such as yourself would know that's positive, not negative (around here we call that "making shit up"). Hence, no recession in Jan 2001 as you claim. Thanks for playing. quote: I do not believe that you understand what I'm talking about. My reference to "make work" had nothing to do with the 1st boondoggle. Actually it is you that doesn't understand what you're talking about. You clearly said stimulus and bailout are the same thing, and used jobs to tie them together. This entire thread has been about bailouts and the stimulus plan. Despite claims they are the same thing, they are not. quote: The first "bail out" and that's exactly what it was and is, is nothing short of a mess. It doesn't create jobs Nor was it designed to. quote: And in case anyone wants to defend Obama on this one, he stopped his campaign, as did McCain, so that they could run to DC and vote for it. Flat wrong. A political scientist such as yourself would know that Obama did not suspend his campaign "as did McCain". McCain made a huge point of suspending his campaign, pointlessly flying to Washington (where he was shut out of the closed-door Senate banking committee meetings, since he wasn't even a member), and pretended he might not attend the debate with Obama that was planned several months in advance. Obama, on the other hand, demonstrating an ability to do three things at once that McCain apparently lacked, continued to make campaign appearances, planned for the debate (which took place as scheduled), and still managed to vote on the bill. quote: As for Geithner being a tax cheat, IRS records show that he failed to pay just a bit over $34,000 in taxes and was magically forgiven in regards to all interest and penalties. That's a tax cheat. Uh, no, a tax cheat is someone who deliberately cheats on their taxes. I'm still waiting on your proof that he did so. As has been discussed in this forum several times as well as in the media, over half the people in Geithner's situation (as per the IRS) made the same mistake. Doesn't make them all "tax cheats". Oh, and in addition to the $34,000 in taxes, he also paid $15,000 in interest, despite your claim that it was "magically forgiven". Try looking stuff up next time.

Cagey18 -> RE: How many Bailout Plans will it take for you to give up on the idea (2/11/2009 5:15:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan What I need to avail myself of is not dictionary meanings or concepts. Dude, you were the one who asked for enlightenment due to your lack of comprehension. Not my fault if you're unable to understand the difference between intent and concept.

TNstepsout -> RE: How many Bailout Plans will it take for you to give up on the idea (2/11/2009 5:46:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou quote: ORIGINAL: TNstepsout quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou quote: ORIGINAL: TNstepsout What makes you think they aren't working? http://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NYSE:BAC http://voices.washingtonpost.com/economy-watch/2009/02/sen_warner_taxpayers_could_see.html?hpid=topnews a million more links at request...... The first one is a link to a stock chart. I don't see the relevance. The second is an article stating that the prices paid for assets were too high. It doesn't seem to be anything about whether it's working or not. Well, the first was to illustrate that the stock market is still tanking hard. BAC was above twenty dollars, when the first bailout package went through. Now it's in the 5.00 dollar range. I hardly call that a success, as the whole reason for the bailout was to keep the financial deck of cards from collapsing. 20 to 5.00 dollars, seems like a collapse to me, and that indicates there is little confidence in financials still, or else the money would be gushing in at these prices. Thus indicating another disaster "lockup" is a breath away. The second was to illustrate the waste, unless you consider overpaying outrageous amounts, helpful to the taxpayer. I consider the government overpaying for assets a failure to protect the taxpayer. I also consider a free fall in confidence in banks, and financials in general, as reflected in the stock prices a failure of the stated objective. "restore confidence in the financial market". As if people were even remotely confident many of these financials would be triple there current value at least. If you are satisfied with those results, at least you won't be disappointed with anything. You are simply pointing to bad news and saying it's a result of the TARP plan, or in spite of the plan. That's not proof that there is a causal relationship. Perhaps if there had been no TARP BofA would be at .30 cents, or maybe even worse. Maybe they'd be bankrupt like Lehman Bros. How it has been managed (or mismanaged) is a completely different topic and has nothing to do with whether it has been effective or not.

Sissy4Mistress61 -> RE: How many Bailout Plans will it take for you to give up on the idea (2/11/2009 6:35:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cagey18 quote: ORIGINAL: Sissy4Mistress61 quote: ORIGINAL: Cagey18 quote: In this case "stimulous" and "bailout" are the same thing, MASSIVE amounts of pork, "make-work" jobs that will dry up as soon as the funds that are stolen from the people to pay for this garbage dry up. Perhaps with your MA in Political Science you can explain where pork and "make work" jobs were in the banking bailout. And perhaps your three degrees on your wall can show us how you know Timothy Geithner to be a "tax cheat". And can show us which two quarters had a falling GDP (definition of recession for those without such advanced degrees) for the recession you allege existed in January 2001. I'm not an economist, as you can tell from my degrees (and no, I'm not trying to brag, just telling you what my credutentials are), but if you look at hard data you'll discover that in the 3rd quarter of 2000 we had a negative GDP of 0.5%, the 4th quarter was negative as well. That's a recession. The one that we have now is worse than the one that we had 8 years ago, but it's still a recession. Funny how you looked up 3Q 2000 to be -0.5%, but not 4Q 2000, which was +2.1%. Even a triply-degreed political scientist such as yourself would know that's positive, not negative (around here we call that "making shit up"). Hence, no recession in Jan 2001 as you claim. Thanks for playing. quote: I do not believe that you understand what I'm talking about. My reference to "make work" had nothing to do with the 1st boondoggle. Actually it is you that doesn't understand what you're talking about. You clearly said stimulus and bailout are the same thing, and used jobs to tie them together. This entire thread has been about bailouts and the stimulus plan. Despite claims they are the same thing, they are not. quote: The first "bail out" and that's exactly what it was and is, is nothing short of a mess. It doesn't create jobs Nor was it designed to. quote: And in case anyone wants to defend Obama on this one, he stopped his campaign, as did McCain, so that they could run to DC and vote for it. Flat wrong. A political scientist such as yourself would know that Obama did not suspend his campaign "as did McCain". McCain made a huge point of suspending his campaign, pointlessly flying to Washington (where he was shut out of the closed-door Senate banking committee meetings, since he wasn't even a member), and pretended he might not attend the debate with Obama that was planned several months in advance. Obama, on the other hand, demonstrating an ability to do three things at once that McCain apparently lacked, continued to make campaign appearances, planned for the debate (which took place as scheduled), and still managed to vote on the bill. quote: As for Geithner being a tax cheat, IRS records show that he failed to pay just a bit over $34,000 in taxes and was magically forgiven in regards to all interest and penalties. That's a tax cheat. Uh, no, a tax cheat is someone who deliberately cheats on their taxes. I'm still waiting on your proof that he did so. As has been discussed in this forum several times as well as in the media, over half the people in Geithner's situation (as per the IRS) made the same mistake. Doesn't make them all "tax cheats". Oh, and in addition to the $34,000 in taxes, he also paid $15,000 in interest, despite your claim that it was "magically forgiven". Try looking stuff up next time. I've tried to be polite, even to someone as obviously ignorant as yourself, but I give up. You've apparently drank the kool-aid, so go play in Jonestown and have a good time. When, and if, you ever decide to look something up or do any research get back with me or someone else that has done the research, holds the degrees to prove it and unlike yourself (and in your own words) doesn't "make shit up." It would be a novel idea if perhaps you would take the time to look up facts and not simply tow the party line and cite warm fuzzy "koombaya" opinions straight off of the Obama talking points. I give up; ignorance can be corrected, but you just can't fix stupid and you, by all appearances you are utterly broken.

Cagey18 -> RE: How many Bailout Plans will it take for you to give up on the idea (2/11/2009 6:45:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sissy4Mistress61 I've tried to be polite, even to someone as obviously ignorant as yourself, but I give up. You've apparently drank the kool-aid, so go play in Jonestown and have a good time. When, and if, you ever decide to look something up or do any research get back with me or someone else that has done the research, holds the degrees to prove it and unlike yourself (and in your own words) doesn't "make shit up." It would be a novel idea if perhaps you would take the time to look up facts and not simply tow the party line and cite warm fuzzy "koombaya" opinions straight off of the Obama talking points. I give up; ignorance can be corrected, but you just can't fix stupid and you, by all appearances you are utterly broken. You're funny!

Coldwarrior57 -> RE: How many Bailout Plans will it take for you to give up on the idea (2/11/2009 8:15:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: corysub quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou I'm truly curious about this. It seems there are many that still are for more government bailouts, stimulus etc... For the record I have been against everyone so far, and will be against all of them no matter what, but that is not the question. The question is for those that are supportive of such measures, let's say the current round comes and goes, and its another failure, and proven to be ineffective or wasteful like the first one was. So, will you again, support it, if they propose that the sky will fall yet again without it. The essential question, is how many times, will it take before you lose faith that the government can fix this mess. Or is there essentially no limit, as in an answer such as "it will depend on the circumstances", as there will always be a circumstance they can use to try to justify it, so that is effectively saying no limit. Personally, I would think more would be against government spending now, than the first but it appears that many have decided to give it another chance since the president changed. So, I'm just wondering, what the tolerance is here for what in my mind, is the outright theft of money, which by the way, is adding to the debt. Thanks. We have a dysfunctional, unpopular Congress, and only an idiot would contemplate giving them the responsibility to determine the best way to use a "trillions of dollars" of money we don't have..or an anarchist who would love the see the decline and fall of the American capitalistic system. I thought "The Biggest loser" was a TV reality show...but NO....it's the sucker American taxpayer. LOL Great line there cory! and NO shit over.

Sissy4Mistress61 -> RE: How many Bailout Plans will it take for you to give up on the idea (2/11/2009 8:38:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Coldwarrior57 quote: ORIGINAL: corysub quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou I'm truly curious about this. It seems there are many that still are for more government bailouts, stimulus etc... For the record I have been against everyone so far, and will be against all of them no matter what, but that is not the question. The question is for those that are supportive of such measures, let's say the current round comes and goes, and its another failure, and proven to be ineffective or wasteful like the first one was. So, will you again, support it, if they propose that the sky will fall yet again without it. The essential question, is how many times, will it take before you lose faith that the government can fix this mess. Or is there essentially no limit, as in an answer such as "it will depend on the circumstances", as there will always be a circumstance they can use to try to justify it, so that is effectively saying no limit. Personally, I would think more would be against government spending now, than the first but it appears that many have decided to give it another chance since the president changed. So, I'm just wondering, what the tolerance is here for what in my mind, is the outright theft of money, which by the way, is adding to the debt. Thanks. We have a dysfunctional, unpopular Congress, and only an idiot would contemplate giving them the responsibility to determine the best way to use a "trillions of dollars" of money we don't have..or an anarchist who would love the see the decline and fall of the American capitalistic system. I thought "The Biggest loser" was a TV reality show...but NO....it's the sucker American taxpayer. LOL Great line there cory! and NO shit over. +1 more, that is a great line.

subtex -> RE: How many Bailout Plans will it take for you to give up on the idea (2/11/2009 12:15:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MmeGigs quote: ORIGINAL: subtex quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Judging by the stock market reaction to the Obama plan, stimulus isn't necessarily synonymous with "stimulus" is it. I think the market reaction is partially in response to the administration talking about how bad the economy is. I think that we need to stop worrying so much about Wall Street's reaction. The stock market is not an accurate indicator of the wisdom or soundness of a particular course of action, as should be bloody obvious. These are the folks who thought the stuff that got us where we are today was a great idea and asked for more. All a drop in the stock market shows us is that the people who are out there looking for a quick buck are feeling nervous. Who cares? If it went up, all that would mean is that these folks were seeing an opportunity for a fast profit for themselves. I agree we shouldn't use Wall Streets reaction to gauge if something is good or bad. Sometimes the analysis of what made the market move gets a little silly because everyday the media has to explain why the market did what it did. I'm concerned about market reaction because I want to make a fast profit for myself either on the upside or downside. Bill

MDSade -> RE: How many Bailout Plans will it take for you to give up on the idea (2/11/2009 12:31:08 PM)
Our economy needs restructuring from the top down. The primary problems are usery, inflation, and greed. Also, the obscene amounts of wealth held by the very few is an abomination. We need to innovate, to start using our technology and our educated to our advantage as a nation. Renewable energy would give us a major advantage in the global economy. Unfortunately the wealthy, who are in control, benefit from the status quo, or are at least too short sighted to understand the need for a change.

Slavehandsome -> RE: How many Bailout Plans will it take for you to give up on the idea (2/11/2009 12:37:47 PM)
As long as there's a nickle left in the people's coffer, then somewhere, there's a banker who wants another bailout. (sniffs deeply) Ahhhh, can't ya just SMELL the CHANGE! This looks like change I can believe in!

housesub4you -> RE: How many Bailout Plans will it take for you to give up on the idea (2/11/2009 12:49:57 PM)
Ahhh.....Bailout, whatever you choose to call it, does not really matter. We have been lied to by everyone, the media, our elected officals (both parties) Wall Street and K Street. I don't know what will work, but I know what has not worked, status qou. So I'm open for something new. My house is paid for, and I have about 1500 acres of vacant land to hunt on so I won't go hungry, but I am worried about our future It seems the truth is the last thing anyone in DC wants us to know, and that includes both parties. I think before long this country will be in a civil war again, not over race, but money. The poor & middle class will only take so much before they rise up against those in power. Maybe not in my lifetime (49) but in my daughters (14 months)

Slavehandsome -> RE: How many Bailout Plans will it take for you to give up on the idea (2/11/2009 1:09:16 PM)
Worse than being lied to, is the clear lack of accountability by anybody in Washington or Wall Street. The police have busted a number of Wall Street execs using bailout money for prostitutes giving them blowjobs. Bailout Money For Blowjobs should have been the headline. However, we should expect a lot more of the same until someone holds the individuals responsible for the decisions they make. There's a Senator who's calling for an investigation into the Bush administration's treasonous handling of White House decisions, like the Katrina response, the misleading information that drummed up the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, unwarranted wire-tapping, and other colossal decisions made by that administration. The thing that angered me about hearing this Senator's call for the investigation, was that it was "for clarity, not vengeance". We're talking about criminals who committed verifiable crimes as recently as last month. Can you imagine if we had "launched an investigation into Al Capone, for clarity, not vengeance" or Adolf Hitler "for clarity, not vengeance". How about the supposed hijackers from Saudi Arabia "for clarity, not vengeance"? Justice is the first thing out the window, and neither Obama nor McCain would do a thing to change that. Expect the calendar to change, but not the process.

housesub4you -> RE: How many Bailout Plans will it take for you to give up on the idea (2/11/2009 2:48:25 PM)
I have noticed in every thread, when common sense and truth has entered into the conversation, GOP supporters have left the ship. Just saying.....They never responded other than the same BS spin you hear on FOX, can you at least raise your own thought????/???

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