RE: Scary thought (Full Version)

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DomKen -> RE: Scary thought (2/15/2009 12:02:45 PM)

I am a veteran and have several close friends that are senior NCO's still serving. I can assure you any zero ordering enlisted men to fire on US citizens not endangering those men will be ignored or shot.



came4U -> RE: Scary thought (2/15/2009 1:19:56 PM)

quote:

prisonplanet.com and abovetopsecret.com forums.


lol hey, like I said, shitty site, it was late and it was first of several on the list.



Irishknight -> RE: Scary thought (2/15/2009 3:31:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I am a veteran and have several close friends that are senior NCO's still serving. I can assure you any zero ordering enlisted men to fire on US citizens not endangering those men will be ignored or shot.

ditto.

When I was in, a survey was done among special forces addressing exactly what you are talking about.  The overwhelming answer was "Fuck you and anyone who would issue such an order."  Attacking US citizens would be an unlawful order at best.  Such an event is only going to happen in the minds of conspiracy nuts and movie makers.
The military would be more likely to turn on the government than the people if forced to make a choice.



TheHeretic -> RE: Scary thought (2/15/2009 4:45:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I am a veteran and have several close friends that are senior NCO's still serving. I can assure you any zero ordering enlisted men to fire on US citizens not endangering those men will be ignored or shot.

ditto.

When I was in, a survey was done among special forces addressing exactly what you are talking about.  The overwhelming answer was "Fuck you and anyone who would issue such an order."  Attacking US citizens would be an unlawful order at best.  Such an event is only going to happen in the minds of conspiracy nuts and movie makers.
The military would be more likely to turn on the government than the people if forced to make a choice.



    To both of the posters above;

   Guys I would like to believe that is 100% accurate.  I really, really would.  But...

It doesn't always work that way.  Here is one telling of one story. 



    Well, dammit, there seems to be a link glitch.  If you don't get audio, scroll down to "The Kent State Massacre" 4:38 and play there.  Neat folk song version of the events.



came4U -> RE: Scary thought (2/15/2009 8:22:07 PM)

quote:

I can assure you any zero ordering enlisted men to fire on US citizens not endangering those men will be ignored or shot.
so you think.

quote:

"Fuck you and anyone who would issue such an order."  Attacking US citizens would be an unlawful order at best.
  Unlawful? no, because in any act of emergency management crisis intervention the Constitution would be ineffective and on-hold until further notice.  What law?  when Martial Law is in effect there are new ground rules all across the board.

on the topic of police...

Why do people discount the ability of police officers who have the mind-set of elitist thinking so warped that he forgets just WHO he works FOR and in the news almost daily are officers that shoot, abuse or cause injury to their fellow citizens? 

Imagine a time when disaster has befallen us.  Forget about militia units like Kent State National Guard (civilian part-timers), that will be nothing compared to troops that actually live (their families too) on secure bases who then patrol areas that have shorages of food, water, shelter and necessities.  They will always have meals, pretty well guarenteed as long as they follow orders. 

Imagine disasters (natural or economic) and no one gets a paycheque or a roof (except for soldiers).  Who do you think they chose to treat safely in priority?

If officers who go home nightly to sleep in their own homes and beds can 'go off' on civilians doing their occupational duties that include so-called typical- dangerous situations, why is this so hard to imagine?

Imagine what a brigade of well-fed, Uncle Sam is their landlord, restraunt and keeper of their families would do when told the rest of us are merely 'disturbances, dangerous, hungry and therefore cannot be trusted scum of the earth? 

Why do Americans assume they are a different breed of human being in that they would never behave like German soldiers that turn on German fellow citizens..or any other of numerous war-torn country that has done similar things?

Yes, special indeed.  What is that saying 'Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it.' -- George Santayana.  How soon you forget.

edit: before bed I want to add this famous poem

First They Came:

"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a communist; 
 
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a socialist;
 
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a trade unionist;
 
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out - because I was not a Jew;
 
Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak out for me. " 
 
written by: Martin Niemцller, the son of a pastor, was born in Lippstadt, Germany, on 14th January, 1892. At the age of eighteen Niemцller became an officer-cadet in the German Navy.





DomKen -> RE: Scary thought (2/15/2009 8:44:05 PM)

Kent State involved a very small number of the troops present and ended quite quickly. It appears that something caused one or more of the troops to believe he was under fire and he and a few men nearby responded but order was swiftly restored. Anyone who believes that that incident indicates a general willingness to attack US citizens by US troops should more closely study the events in question.



Coldwarrior57 -> RE: Scary thought (2/15/2009 8:53:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I am a veteran and have several close friends that are senior NCO's still serving. I can assure you any zero ordering enlisted men to fire on US citizens not endangering those men will be ignored or shot.
Roger that!
or laughed at so hard he has a stroke!



kdsub -> RE: Scary thought (2/15/2009 9:11:27 PM)

Get a bunch of kids...give them weapons... get them scared enough... then give an order to shoot...someone will.

If you can't envision that happening then you are not sensible.

It has happened before and would happen again.

Butch



TheHeretic -> RE: Scary thought (2/15/2009 9:20:52 PM)

        No, Ken, it isn't a "general willingness," but it illustrates how shit can happen, especially when the troops stop seeing their fellow citizens, and start seeing "other."

      You note that "order was swiftly restored."  You don't note that that happened by ordering the Guard to fall back.  If the command had been "fire," instead of "cease fire," Neil Young could easily have been singing "forty dead in Ohio."

      I wish I could totally agree with you guys, but I don't see such a nightmare as utterly impossible.



ArizonaSunSwitch -> RE: Scary thought (2/15/2009 9:46:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

        No, Ken, it isn't a "general willingness," but it illustrates how shit can happen, especially when the troops stop seeing their fellow citizens, and start seeing "other."

      You note that "order was swiftly restored."  You don't note that that happened by ordering the Guard to fall back.  If the command had been "fire," instead of "cease fire," Neil Young could easily have been singing "forty dead in Ohio."

      I wish I could totally agree with you guys, but I don't see such a nightmare as utterly impossible.


Of course it isn't. Why do you think Obama wants a 2-3 million "civil defense force". Even with the winding down in Iraq don't bet you're going to see any significant reduction in foreign forces. The administrative branch knows damn well the military isn't going to take orders against US civilian interests and having them all here domestically is a potential problem.



slvemike4u -> RE: Scary thought (2/15/2009 10:38:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I am a veteran and have several close friends that are senior NCO's still serving. I can assure you any zero ordering enlisted men to fire on US citizens not endangering those men will be ignored or shot.

ditto.

When I was in, a survey was done among special forces addressing exactly what you are talking about.  The overwhelming answer was "Fuck you and anyone who would issue such an order."  Attacking US citizens would be an unlawful order at best.  Such an event is only going to happen in the minds of conspiracy nuts and movie makers.
The military would be more likely to turn on the government than the people if forced to make a choice.
Well that is it in a nut shell,the very code that leads some to look at military personell as robots has at its core one overriding feature.Any order deemed illegal is by definition to be disobeyed.As a matter of fact it is made clear in the UCMJ that "just following orders " is no defence for an illegal and/or immoral act.The Nuremberg trials put that particular defence to rest 60 some odd years ago.



rulemylife -> RE: Scary thought (2/15/2009 11:24:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Kent State involved a very small number of the troops present and ended quite quickly. It appears that something caused one or more of the troops to believe he was under fire and he and a few men nearby responded but order was swiftly restored. Anyone who believes that that incident indicates a general willingness to attack US citizens by US troops should more closely study the events in question.


Yeah, right.

Order was swiftly restored.

Four dead, one permanently paralyzed, eight others wounded.

Guess it wasn't quite swift enough.



DomKen -> RE: Scary thought (2/15/2009 11:49:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Kent State involved a very small number of the troops present and ended quite quickly. It appears that something caused one or more of the troops to believe he was under fire and he and a few men nearby responded but order was swiftly restored. Anyone who believes that that incident indicates a general willingness to attack US citizens by US troops should more closely study the events in question.


Yeah, right.

Order was swiftly restored.

Four dead, one permanently paralyzed, eight others wounded.

Guess it wasn't quite swift enough.


Considering that over 2 companies of infantry were on sight when this happened that is a tiny number of dead and wounded. If it had been an organized attack by even a single plattoon the death toll would have been far higher.

Kent state was a tragedy but all things considered it was very very minor. Compare to the horrors unleashed in Beijing in 1989.



rulemylife -> RE: Scary thought (2/16/2009 12:30:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Considering that over 2 companies of infantry were on sight when this happened that is a tiny number of dead and wounded. If it had been an organized attack by even a single plattoon the death toll would have been far higher.

Kent state was a tragedy but all things considered it was very very minor. Compare to the horrors unleashed in Beijing in 1989.


Well that's reassuring to know.  The death toll would have been much higher if more Guardsmen had opened fire instead of the 29 who did.

Fills me with pride in our military to think of the hundreds of members of the Ohio National Guard on campus that day who showed the restraint not to shoot unarmed civilians.



Irishknight -> RE: Scary thought (2/16/2009 5:33:01 AM)

Someone asked "what law?"  As Mike pointed out, military members are bound by the UCMJ. 

There is no general willingness by American troops to attack its citizens.  That is total fabrication by those who hate our soldiers to begin with.  This is not an African nation where soldiers routinely break into the very houses they are supposed to be defending to rape and kill the inhabitants.  When was the last time we had an American town wiped out by a group of marauding soldiers looking for food, money or someone to rape?  Soldier does not always equal evil bastard no matter how hard some want them to be.



came4U -> RE: Scary thought (2/16/2009 7:45:47 AM)

yeah yeah, we know...Americans would never, ever shoot other Americans...LOL (see crime rates and stats of any city).

NY Times, Feb 14, 2009: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/us/15immig.html?hp

Stretched thin in Afghanistan and Iraq, the American military will begin recruiting skilled immigrants who are living in this country with temporary visas, offering them the chance to become United States citizens in as little as six months.

Immigrants who are permanent residents, with documents commonly known as green cards, have long been eligible to enlist. But the new effort, for the first time since the Vietnam War, will open the armed forces to temporary immigrants if they have lived in the United States for a minimum of two years, according to military officials familiar with the plan.

About 8,000 permanent immigrants with green cards join the armed forces annually, the Pentagon reports, and about 29,000 foreign-born people currently serving are not American citizens.

later in the article...."Military figures show that only 82 percent of about 80,000 Army recruits last year had high school diplomas. According to new figures, the Army provided waivers to 18 percent of active-duty recruits in the final four months of last year, allowing them to enlist despite medical conditions or criminal records. "

oh boy.





Irishknight -> RE: Scary thought (2/16/2009 1:21:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

yeah yeah, we know...Americans would never, ever shoot other Americans...LOL (see crime rates and stats of any city).


Nice way to try to dance around the fact that you want to paint all soldiers as remorseless killers.  Now, all Americans are psychopaths and criminals according to you.  Sorry, but violent criminals are the exception, not the rule. 
We now know that any furtherposts by you can be invalidated by your bias and prejudice.



DomKen -> RE: Scary thought (2/16/2009 2:53:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

yeah yeah, we know...Americans would never, ever shoot other Americans...LOL (see crime rates and stats of any city).

NY Times, Feb 14, 2009: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/us/15immig.html?hp

Stretched thin in Afghanistan and Iraq, the American military will begin recruiting skilled immigrants who are living in this country with temporary visas, offering them the chance to become United States citizens in as little as six months.

Immigrants who are permanent residents, with documents commonly known as green cards, have long been eligible to enlist. But the new effort, for the first time since the Vietnam War, will open the armed forces to temporary immigrants if they have lived in the United States for a minimum of two years, according to military officials familiar with the plan.

About 8,000 permanent immigrants with green cards join the armed forces annually, the Pentagon reports, and about 29,000 foreign-born people currently serving are not American citizens.

later in the article...."Military figures show that only 82 percent of about 80,000 Army recruits last year had high school diplomas. According to new figures, the Army provided waivers to 18 percent of active-duty recruits in the final four months of last year, allowing them to enlist despite medical conditions or criminal records. "

oh boy.

That's bullshit. I am a post Vietnam vet and the USN had long accepted foreign nationals into service. Serve a few years and get automatic citizenship for yourself and the right to bring your family to the states. Many many Filipinos took advantage of that program. Go check out Virginia Beach VA if you doubt it.

BTW I think it no more likely that they would obey and order to attack civilians than I think a natural born citizen soldier would.



came4U -> RE: Scary thought (2/16/2009 3:04:48 PM)

quote:

Now, all Americans are psychopaths and criminals according to you.
  you say so, not I.

quote:

BTW I think it no more likely that they would obey and order to attack civilians than I think a natural born citizen soldier would.


"Marty Justis, executive director of the national headquarters of the American Legion, the veterans’ organization, said that while the group opposes “any great influx of immigrants” to the United States, it would not object to recruiting temporary immigrants as long as they passed tough background checks. But he said the immigrants’ allegiance to the United States “must take precedence over and above any ties they may have with their native country.”

I didn't write the article. But, this is nothing new as you say, it has just not been done on this scale before.

quote:

We now know that any furtherposts by you can be invalidated by your bias and prejudice.


Yes, against the militarizing of disaster relief, which is what this topic is about.







slaveboyforyou -> RE: Scary thought (2/16/2009 3:24:33 PM)

quote:

edit: before bed I want to add this famous poem

First They Came:

"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a communist; 
 
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a socialist;
 
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a trade unionist;
 
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out - because I was not a Jew;
 
Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak out for me. " 


This isn't a poem.  [8|]. 

BTW, you're a Canadian.  Why do you care about FEMA, or the United States military?  Do you think they're going to come up there for you too? 



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