RE: Scary thought (Full Version)

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thornhappy -> RE: Scary thought (2/16/2009 3:39:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

later in the article...."Military figures show that only 82 percent of about 80,000 Army recruits last year had high school diplomas. According to new figures, the Army provided waivers to 18 percent of active-duty recruits in the final four months of last year, allowing them to enlist despite medical conditions or criminal records. "

oh boy.

That's been going on for years.  Back about 6 or so, when enlistments dropped.




DedicatedDom40 -> RE: Scary thought (2/16/2009 3:46:49 PM)

Maybe their data collection is so this other data collection wont be lonely.

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=43463

P.S. no black helicopters here






rulemylife -> RE: Scary thought (2/16/2009 5:20:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight


There is no general willingness by American troops to attack its citizens.  That is total fabrication by those who hate our soldiers to begin with.


So, the National Guard opening fire on unarmed citizens at Kent State was just a fabrication by those who hate our soldiers?





came4U -> RE: Scary thought (2/16/2009 6:19:35 PM)

quote:

This isn't a poem.  [8|].   


yeah, you are right ..I just made it up.  I make everything up..for jokes.[8|] back atcha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...
(even includes lil picture of the Memorial stone)

Martin Niemoeller's poem inscribed on a stone in the New England Holocaust Memorial.   "First they came…" is a poem attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group."

quote:

BTW, you're a Canadian.  Why do you care about FEMA, or the United States military?  Do you think they're going to come up there for you too? 


Yes, Canada is soooooo far away and we have nothing to do with the US. lol. 

You obviously never heard of operation “Vigilant Shield” where for the past 4+ years your mil and our mil has been swapping patrol forces in practice.   http://www.army.mil/-news/2008/12/02/14708-command-sharpens-its-skills-in-exercise-vigilant-shield-2009/. You know, our troops there, your troops here.

or...also from the US army.mil/:  The Future of Canada's Role in Hemispheric Defense: "Canada championed the establishment of a binational planning organization to address enhancing military cooperation between Canada and the United States. In addition, it has recently announced plans to increase defense spending in the out years. Canada has cooperated with the United States in securing the borders, has made improvements in intelligence sharing, and has assisted in tracking down terrorists.

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/news_e.asp?id=2129 : "This is the place to examine and enhance our responses. It ensures we are ready and able to react in any potential situation", said Major General Charlie Bouchard, Commander of 1 Canadian Air Division /CANR Headquarters in Winnipeg."

yeah, we are faaaaar away and insignifigant.  Millions of miles away.

you don't get out much do ya?

quote:

Maybe their data collection is so this other data collection wont be lonely.


yes, the Nazi's data mined also.  Only difference is they put their citizen's medical records on paper. 

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=298418 Locating the victim: An overview of census-taking, tabulation technology and persecution in nazi Germany
Luebke, D.M.   Milton, S. 

http://www.springerlink.com/content/52340u765q625277/
Registering the handicapped in Nazi Germany: A case study
Henry Friedlander, Brooklyn College, NY.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118851202/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0The Nazi Connection. Eugenics, American Racism, and German National Socialism. Stefan Kühl, New York and Oxford: Blackwell Publishing, 2002. 184 pp.

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=641cSsLuvosC&oi=fnd&pg=PR7&dq=Registering+the+handicapped+in+Nazi+Germany:+A+case+study&ots=W48JTpj_W8&sig=SWAQUSgS-TkMTfMYbGj6TQI99lU Cleansing the Fatherland.

It is endless.










Irishknight -> RE: Scary thought (2/16/2009 8:00:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight


There is no general willingness by American troops to attack its citizens.  That is total fabrication by those who hate our soldiers to begin with.

So, the National Guard opening fire on unarmed citizens at Kent State was just a fabrication by those who hate our soldiers?


It was a single tragic happening around 40 years ago.  There was not a mass execution of civilians by an organized unit but a handful of frightened guardsmen who believed that they were under fire.
Kent State is an apple and what the nutjobs are suggesting is an orange. 

Of course, we all know that every American soldier is just waiting to get his chance to kill countless Americans.... or so you want people to believe.




TheHeretic -> RE: Scary thought (2/16/2009 8:15:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Kent State is an apple and what the nutjobs are suggesting is an orange. 




          Kent State is an example of why we shouldn't get cocky about what our armed forces will and won't do.  I can't imagine anything like Tiananmen Square here, but what about, just as a for instance, an order from a Governor to the National Guard to shoot looters?




Irishknight -> RE: Scary thought (2/16/2009 9:26:27 PM)

The guard of the Kent State days and the guard today are different animals.  As for them shooting looters, they had the authority to do so in NOLA after Katrina and didn't do so even after being shot at.  They had the firepower, the authority to act in defense of themselves and others, and they were fired upon ... and NOLA is not a big military base under martial law. 

Are there a small number of people who would be willing to shoot civilians?  You bet.  The military is a cross section of our entire society.  As such, there will always be some bad people.  However, those are the minority and not the majority of soldiers.  Amazingly enough, soldiers are just people like everyone else but they had the balls to sign to defend ingrates, cowards, and criminals along with the rest of us.





slaveboyforyou -> RE: Scary thought (2/16/2009 9:44:33 PM)

quote:

you don't get out much do ya?


I'm not the one espousing moronic conspiracy theories that have been debunked time and time again.  FEMA does not have concentration camps set up, it isn't formulating plans to come into cities and round up people, and it isn't in league with some nefarious shadow group made up of Jews, Masons, the Illuminati, and international bankers riding around in black helicopters. 

You can spout off this Mark Koernke/Michigan Militia horse manure all you want.  It's bullshit; it's nothing but paranoid fantasies started by middle aged adolescents that sit around jerking off to thoughts of fighting evil, one-world government troops like they're heroes in a science fiction novel. 




came4U -> RE: Scary thought (2/16/2009 10:24:51 PM)

Before you say Canada has nothing to do with the American military, I set that straight (re: NORAD and Vig. Sword now changing topic again? I guess we are so useless and invisible we aren't fighting in Iraq also.

quote:

FEMA does not have concentration camps set up, it

 
Jan 2009. National Emergency Centers Establishment Act (Introduced in House)

HR 645 IH
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.645.IH:
SEC. 3. DESIGNATION OF MILITARY INSTALLATIONS AS NATIONAL EMERGENCY CENTERS:
    (a) In General- Not later than 60 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of Defense, shall designate not fewer than 6 military installations as sites for the establishment of national emergency centers.




      There is authorized to be appropriated $180,000,000 for each of fiscal years 2009 and 2010 to carry out this Act. Such funds shall remain available until expended.

      no, no camps at all...only over 600, with (above) contracts to build more. 

      Besides, aren't prisons built with fencing and the barbed wire facing inwards as FEMA camps are?  If a tornado hits my house and I go to any camp, I better damn well be able to leave (starve or parish) by choice if I decide to. 

      quote:

      You can spout off this Mark Koernke/Michigan Militia horse manure all you want.


      I have no idea who Koernke is. So I can't quote the guy.

      But if I (or anyone) chooses NOT to go to 'summer camp FEMA' because I doubt I would come out all dreamy with arts n crafts pine cones and new penpals then I have that right to mistrust. 

      If you choose to go because you trust your government, then by all means, go.  God knows, we can always trust 'a governement' for they have your best interests at heart (cuz America is eutopia and they would NEVER fuck their own people). lol

      Trust away.  I will be on the outside chasing and eating live bunnies and squirrels if I find any, skin em alive just to make a hat too. 









      came4U -> RE: Scary thought (2/17/2009 3:39:43 AM)

      Thought this would be interesting reading:
      Headquarters
      Department of the Army
      Washington, DC
      UNCLASSIFIED: 14 January 2005
       
      Civilian Inmate Labor Program

      http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r210_35.pdf

      looks like it is for Federal inmates to be transfered, until you read the regulations regarding 'new programs' that arise.

      Like:

      "Unlike enemy prisoner of war (EPW) and civilian internee operations in the past, internment/resettlement (I/R) operations include additional detained persons and the handling, 'protecting', and accounting for dislocated civilians as well as conducting battlefield confinement of US military prisoners. A civilian internee (CI) is a person who is interned during armed conflict or occupation if considered a security risk or if 'protection' is needed because of committing an offense (insurgent, criminal) against the detaining power, a dislocated civilian (DC) is a civilian who has left his/her home for various reasons, and a displaced person (DP) has been dislocated because of war, natural disaster, or political/economic turmoil."
       
      "Under "REX" the President could declare a state of emergency, empowering the head of FEMA to take control of the internal infrastructure of the United States and suspend the constitution. The President could invoke executive orders 11000 thru 11004 which would: 1- Draft all citizens into work forces under government supervision. 2- Empower the postmaster to register all men, women and children. 3- Seize all airports and aircraft. 4- Seize all housing and establish forced relocation of citizens."
       
      The Deputy Attorney General of California commented at a conference that anyone who attacks the State, even verbally, becomes a revolutionary and an enemy by definition. Louis Guiffreda, who was head of FEMA, stated that "legitimate violence is integral to our form of government, for it is from this source that we can continue to purge our weaknesses."

      "In December 2005, NBC News revealed the existence of a secret 400-page Pentagon document listing 1,500 "suspicious incidents" over a 10-month period, including dozens of small antiwar demonstrations that were classified as a "threat." (possible internment potential). Other lists are growing in number since 2005 via data mining through internet and undercover Federal and state agents to locate dissidents.

      In Russia these camps were called Gulag:

      wiki: Most Gulag inmates were not political prisoners, although the political prisoner population was always significant.People could be imprisoned in a Gulag camp for crimes such as unexcused absences from work, petty theft, or anti-government jokes. About half of the political prisoners were sent to Gulag prison camps without trial, per official data, there were more than 2.6 million imprisonment sentences in cases investigated by the secret police, 1921-1953

      KBR (formerly a subsidiary of  Halliburton) 2008 approved to recieve 285million for contracts to build 15 new prison camps, despite lawsuits and accusations for human trafficing and the electrocution of soldiers in Iraq.

      As of June 9, 2008, 81 American and Foreign KBR employees and subcontractors have been killed, and more than 380 have been wounded by hostile action while performing services under the company's government contracts in Iraq, Afghanistan and Kuwait. On August 28, 2008, defense contractor KBR, Inc. and a Jordanian subcontractor were accused of human trafficking in a federal lawsuit filed in Los Angeles. Amoung other allegations and proven count proceedings.

      Despite all this..............if some of the disclosed areas of location for the building of the new facilities are near or within proximity of existing Federal Prisons, would it make sense to build near them in the case of a disaster? 

      Wouldn't that disaster cause destruction of the existing and the newly built prisons?  Disaster my ass.




      kdsub -> RE: Scary thought (2/17/2009 7:52:11 AM)

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: Irishknight

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: rulemylife

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: Irishknight


      There is no general willingness by American troops to attack its citizens.  That is total fabrication by those who hate our soldiers to begin with.

      So, the National Guard opening fire on unarmed citizens at Kent State was just a fabrication by those who hate our soldiers?


      It was a single tragic happening around 40 years ago.  There was not a mass execution of civilians by an organized unit but a handful of frightened guardsmen who believed that they were under fire.
      Kent State is an apple and what the nutjobs are suggesting is an orange. 

      Of course, we all know that every American soldier is just waiting to get his chance to kill countless Americans.... or so you want people to believe.


      There have been other instances...in 1932 The US army used sabers, gas, and bayonets on their own WWI veterans. There was only one death but hundreds wounded.

      Remember the 4 Marines on Border Patrol that killed the 18 year old boy by mistake.

      There were reasons and mistakes made in both instances above but the point is military and civilians together in a confrontation will often result in violence and death. Even with the best trained individuals like the Marines in Texas.

      Butch




      Irishknight -> RE: Scary thought (2/17/2009 1:38:06 PM)

      And how many people have been accidently shot by cops?  Therefore all cops are going to try to take over the country.

      How many people have been killed in auto accidents?  All cars must be designed to kill people to make way for Toyota to take over the country.

      The 18 year old was an accident.  He fired a weapon and Marines thought they were under fire.  They did not invade a city in the US. 

      1932 was 77 years ago.  I guess the army took charge then and is still running the country?  If that is true, who is this guy that we elected and why is he not called "generalissimo?"





      kdsub -> RE: Scary thought (2/17/2009 5:08:39 PM)

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: Irishknight

      And how many people have been accidently shot by cops?  Therefore all cops are going to try to take over the country.

      How many people have been killed in auto accidents?  All cars must be designed to kill people to make way for Toyota to take over the country.

      The 18 year old was an accident.  He fired a weapon and Marines thought they were under fire.  They did not invade a city in the US. 

      1932 was 77 years ago.  I guess the army took charge then and is still running the country?  If that is true, who is this guy that we elected and why is he not called "generalissimo?"




      If we were talking about cops I would agree...but we were talking about military...my point is that you can't depend on military units anymore than you can the police... Some were making the statement that military units would not follow orders to shoot civilians...  I believe, and so does history, they are wrong to believe that in every case.

      Butch




      came4U -> RE: Scary thought (2/17/2009 11:51:13 PM)

      I don't care what the less than 9% of you do.

      point is...in general most are followers (as seen in saveforou's) posts.

      He will go to camp happily, eat their food, uhhhhggggg

      My point is.........pay attention to every new law and stop this before it happens.







      rulemylife -> RE: Scary thought (2/18/2009 3:18:21 AM)

      quote:

      ORIGINAL: Irishknight



      It was a single tragic happening around 40 years ago.  There was not a mass execution of civilians by an organized unit but a handful of frightened guardsmen who believed that they were under fire.
      Kent State is an apple and what the nutjobs are suggesting is an orange. 

      Of course, we all know that every American soldier is just waiting to get his chance to kill countless Americans.... or so you want people to believe.


      First, as you might have noticed by an earlier post I made, I'm not advocating these conspiracy theories and I don't believe our military is being trained to impose martial law and kill civilians.

      Second, considering my background, most of my family and friends would be pretty surprised to learn I hate soldiers, as you keep accusing me of.

      What I am disagreeing with is your attempts to rationalize and justify what happened at Kent in an attempt to prove it couldn't happen again.

      You are trying to make the argument that soldiers would not use force against civilians based on a clear-cut situation in which civilians are not viewed as a threat, and I agree.

      But soldiers are not trained to question and debate orders.  In a black-and white case of an unlawful order I'm sure most would, but how often is it that easily straightforward?

      If you, as a soldier, are told a threat exists from a certain segment of the population, what would be your first instincts and your first loyalties based on your training?  Would it be to sit down and have a group discussion to decide if you should obey the order?

      In the case of Kent State, the Guard was not sent onto campus with the idea they were there to act as a security force to restore order but with the mindset that they were there to put down a rebellion against the country.  A mindset fostered by the Governor who sent the troops in:


      [/link]By Sunday, May 3, there were nearly 1,000 National Guardsmen on campus to control the students.

      During a press conference, Governor Rhodes called the protesters un-American and referred to the protesters as revolutionaries set on destroying higher education in Ohio. "They're worse than the brown shirts and the communist element and also the night riders and the vigilantes," Rhodes said. "They're the worst type of people that we harbor in America. I think that we're up against the strongest, well-trained, militant, revolutionary group that has ever assembled in America."[link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings#cite_note-12][13]

      [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings#cite_note-12][/link]





      came4U -> RE: Scary thought (2/18/2009 12:27:01 PM)

      Since it keeps coming back to examples like Kent state,

      quote:

      It was a single tragic happening around 40 years ago.  There was not a mass execution of civilians by an organized unit but a handful of frightened guardsmen who believed that they were under fire.  Kent State is an apple and what the nutjobs are suggesting is an orange.


      again, wrong.

      Orangeburg massacre: The Orangeburg massacre was an incident on February 8, 1968 in which local policemen in Orangeburg, South Carolina fired into a crowd of young people who were protesting local segregation at a bowling alley. They killed three and injured twenty-seven, hitting most of them in their backs. The incident pre-dated the Kent State shootings and Jackson State killings.

      Jackson State University: Seventy-five city policemen and Mississippi State Police officers armed with carbines, submachine guns, shotguns, service revolvers and some personal weapons, responded to the call. Their combined armed presence on the Lynch Street side of Stewart Hall, a men's dormitory, staved off the crowd long enough for the firemen to extinguish the blaze and leave.After the firemen left, the police and state troopers marched along Lynch Street toward Alexander Center, a women's residence, weapons at the ready. No one seems to know why. Whatever actually occurred, the police opened fire at approximately 12:05 a.m., May 15, and continued firing for more than 30 seconds. The students scattered, some running for the trees in front of the library, but most scrambling for the Alexander Hall west end door.

      On this date in 1970, two Black students at Jackson State University were killed and many others injured by Jackson police. http://www.aaregistry.com/african_american_history/1660/Killings_at_Jackson_State_University
      http://www.may41970.com/Jackson%20State/jackson_state_may_1970.htm

      Kent State isolated incident?  uh huh

      The point is....no country is immune, even ours.  The ideals that dehumanizing some 'hippies' was common practice.  Not to mention at Jackson State it was racially motivated.  Imagine the dehumanization effect if even the rich are poor and the poor are poorer to the point of desperation. 

      Like I said in earlier pages, these officers or patrol men were for the most part part-timers, who went home at night to their homes, families and had another full-time source of income.  Imagine if they were full-time and their sole income and food, lodging/shelter is the chow line.  Disobey orders to collect and imprison citizens? Not likely many will bite the hand that feeds them.  





      Irishknight -> RE: Scary thought (2/18/2009 6:31:48 PM)

      Rule, if you'll read back, there is another poster who both advocated a conspiracy takeover theory and made comments as if all US troops were mindless killing machines.  Twas not you.
      As for troops not thinking through orders, I have served in 2 branches of the military and questioning orders happens all of the time.  It is a soldier's job to question an order that may be unlawful.  Failure to do so makes one guilty under the UCMJ of any crime committed by following that order.  I remember being trained in the UCMJ and being taught about unlawful orders during my Army and Navy time. 




      came4U -> RE: Scary thought (2/18/2009 8:49:51 PM)

      quote:

      Failure to do so makes one guilty under the UCMJ of any crime committed by following that order.  I remember being trained in the UCMJ and being taught about unlawful orders during my Army and Navy time. 


      Again you bring up the UCMJ laws.   Let me correct you about that...

      "Civilians not subject to the UCMJ may be subject to military authority in situations involving martial law or hostilities."  FM 19-10 Chptr 5 Having Authority and Jurisdiction of the UCMJ Law.

      continued:


      The Posse Comitatus Act

      MP authority does not extend to civilians outside areas under military jurisdiction or control. The military cannot be used to help execute civilian law. The Posse Comitatus Act provides that whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army to execute civil law shall be fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned not more than two years or both. This act applies to enforcement of federal, state, county, or local law. And a related statute makes it an offense to have military personnel at a place where elections are being held, except when such force is necessary to repel armed enemies of the US (18 USC 592 and 593).  http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/19-10/Ch5.htm#s1p4

      The statute generally prohibits federal military personnel and units of the National Guard under federal authority from acting in a law enforcement capacity within the United States, except where expressly authorized by the Constitution or Congress. The Coast Guard is exempt from the Act.

      Therefore if Martial Law is declared State-wide and non Federal (25-49 out of 50 States), the USMJ Posse Law cannot be used as a civilian safeguard and is NOT in effect.

      What it means?

      During Martial Law, the rules change.  The UCMJ handbook also changes.

      Quit bringing up useless regulations that do not exist any longer after any Martial Law is declared.  At that point, the UCMJ does not apply.

      quote:

      Rule, if you'll read back, there is another poster who both advocated a conspiracy takeover theory and made comments as if all US troops were mindless killing machines.


      If that was me, please quote me as saying so....or anyone else for that matter.  What you read into a comment is not the same as what was actually written. 

      Besides, conspiracy theories are just that.  A means of keeping track of (by First Amendment rights or in Canada The constitutional provision that guarantees Freedom of expression in Canada is section 2(b) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.) a government so that really bad shit doesn't happen like it has before.  Just like the people that had to get sick or die from eating peanut butter so that a country can be warned not to trust certain sources of that food.  If not for the 'nuts' that keep track and are intense on finding the little details of importance that might take away YOUR rights someday in the future, if someone wasn't staying awake and paying attention.........no one would be here to warn you that you are going to get shafted. 

      I don't guarentee any martial law or disaster would befall the Americas, I hope it never does.  If the government ever planned on it happening, it really pisses them off when too many are alerted to the obvious signs.  I hope to pass on those obvious signs as fact.  Someone needs to lose sleep ----so that you can sleep well.

      "Never Again" - International slogan for Nazi Holocaust Victims/Survivors.

      btw....why else did Nazi Germany take the professors, doctors and journalists who were smart and brave enough to study and voice opinions about their current government's activities?  Why did they also voice opinion of opposition and the Nazi party claimed they were the 'chicken little-sky is falling' nuts?

      You continue your path of ignorance and disbelief and live in your fairy tale, I choose to use my spare time to keep track of the little things as a hobby.  Does it hurt you that I do?  Are you any worse for wear?  Does it invade your life? NO. 




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