RE: A sub who tops from the bottom

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PeonForHer -> RE: A sub who tops from the bottom (2/19/2009 5:15:28 PM)
Not that it's any of my business, PS - but did it improve the relationship in the long term? I still do wonder if it can work to try to convey to a sub - somehow, god knows how - that he himself might enjoy everything more if he were more submissive . . .

ShaktiSama -> RE: A sub who tops from the bottom (2/19/2009 5:42:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 I was ignored by a Mistress I knew for a week, no contact at all. What really hurt me was when she later said I had punished her, by making her ignore me for a week. That really hit home. Indeed. I have felt the same way, the one or two times I have had to punish the boykin. Cutting off contact is unpleasant for both of us, but it establishes that I will not allow my will to be crossed, even if the punishment really does "hurt me as much as it hurts him".

princessKatt -> RE: A sub who tops from the bottom (2/19/2009 8:19:57 PM)
"Personally I love my dominant side to be pushed to its limit because it gives me the chance to be hard " Haha gd point! Yes sometimes it gives me good reason to be more creative and what not. "Try sending him home next time he tries it, and ignore him for a few days. There is nothing better for concentrating the mind, than the idea you cant be with the one you want. Once he knows you mean what you say, his attitude will change." I'll give this a try. In the past sometimes I would disengage for a bit,not let him cum or put him in a cb(and while I like doing this believe me for him this a big punishment and not a good thing he likes lol) I can see that ignoring him for that long will just make him chase me and possibly put things in perspective. With the type of subs I tend to like games work and are fun in my eyes. If that doesn't work yes I can easily just communicate - put it all on the table. Maybe this is best- I'll see. And yes perhaps having strong feelings 4 him have made me a bit more vulnerable - possilby allowing him to sometimes manipulate the situation. This will be adressed Thanks!!:)

hardbodysub -> RE: A sub who tops from the bottom (2/19/2009 8:55:36 PM)
Wow. This reality is looking more exciting than most fantasies!

chezzy71 -> RE: A sub who tops from the bottom (2/20/2009 12:35:49 PM)
I think the only time i was allowed even to speak a thought of topping from the bottom was when Mistress and i were having a conversation about Thanksgiving and how i spent it.I said something like"well it was nice but i can complain you know".And her response was"maybe someone should just clamp a hand over your mouth"..and i was allowed this tidbit"why??who do you have in mind ...yourself"???Now while the converstaion sounds playful and it was to an extent..the rest of it was much more insightful as has the last five years been and what has followed since that particular inquiry if you will.Ok so i needed a story to tell..but i still got to the poiint..smiles.

MissMorrigan -> RE: A sub who tops from the bottom (2/20/2009 1:58:25 PM)
I have found that the only way to achieve something is to effectively communicate. Ignoring someone frequently backfires and is pretty much an ineffective tool when used for long periods of time, ie days/weeks. If I ever reached the stage where I thought to terminate contact with my submissive partner as a weapon/tool used to punish him, I would consider that a great failing on my part, an inability in me to teach him how to respond positively. It's basically a form of giving someone the 'silent treatment', and reminds me of soemthing a teenager would do to get attention. quote: ORIGINAL: princessKatt If that doesn't work yes I can easily just communicate - put it all on the table. Maybe this is best- I'll see. And yes perhaps having strong feelings 4 him have made me a bit more vulnerable - possilby allowing him to sometimes manipulate the situation. This will be adressed

lobodomslavery -> RE: A sub who tops from the bottom (2/21/2009 11:34:28 AM)
Give him a slap. Not a constructive suggestion in my view. You might damage the boy by doing that but then, one woman's fish and all that kevin

LadyConstanze -> RE: A sub who tops from the bottom (2/21/2009 1:17:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Andalusite Yeah, using play to "punish" for this kind of thing is a reward, IMHO. Personally, I have no problem with men making requests (though not demands), but I'd be really un-thrilled if he got bratty with me. I'm pretty much the same, I'd point out that his behaviour ruins it for me in a quiet heart to heart chat, then if it happens in a "scene" I'd mention the conversation we had and would stop playing. If he's not getting what he's looking for, that will hit home... Alternatively a "reward" if he keeps on doing it, something he really doesn't like, doesn't have to be pain, could be a real menial task that bores him to death! You know, just to make a point and show him who's in control....

TexasMaam -> RE: A sub who tops from the bottom (2/22/2009 10:01:24 AM)
I disagree with ignoring the behavior, not the person. Ignoring his behavior is what she's done so far! Ignoring the person will take from him the thing he wants most: your time and attention on his terms. A resistant or manipulative sub just may not have your needs at heart. There is a very real possiblity that he's only in it to meet his cravings. Having been involved for years with such a fellow I would caution you to not jump through his hoops. If he begins to manipulate a session, end it right then, but tell him why. Tell him simply that 'whatever it is you just commanded/manipulated I do for you is not what I want in a sub. This isn't all about you. It's about Me and what I want to do today, first. There will be sessions that I ask for your input and wants, but today is not that day.' Then end the session by sending him home, don't talk to him or email him for a day or two. Shun HIM, not his behavior. Similarly, if you're discussing, for example, an outing or date, and he begins to control the plans, stop him, saying, 'I want you to listen a moment. I want to go listen to whatever music, not whichever music. Today, it's about what I want, this isn't all about you. I will eventually ask you about what you want.' If his resistance continues then shun him, don't punish him. Punishing him gives him what he wants: your attention, meeting *his* cravings. Shun *him, NOT his behavior. Tell him you are shunning him for three days, or a week, with no communication until YOU decide to communicate, beause he just 'manipulated your dating plans' and instead you want him to learn to consider your tastes, your idea of what's fun. Tell him to think about it for the next three days, and when you call him in a few days you expect him to listen to you. After you try these motivational techniques using shunning to get him to focus on his submission rather than on his needs, you'll know by his response whether he has the potential to be a keeper, or not. If he continues to make his schedule, events, sessions, and plans all about what 'he wants to do' even after you've shunned him a few times, then it's time to find a more service oriented sub. Best of luck, let us know how things go. TM quote:* ORIGINAL: hereyesruponyou Disengaging is a very valid technique for behavior modification. They key to remember though is to ignore the behavior not the person. Do not respond to his requests or manipulation that cross the line for you. Just continue on the way you desire. It is not always easy to do this and may make you feel like you are pulling away from the relationship, but actually you are just controlling it. Only time and consistency can really change behavior

LovingMistress45 -> RE: A sub who tops from the bottom (2/22/2009 10:40:23 AM)
I am going to throw this out there - you need to decide what attracted you to him. This is something I had to figure out myself. I am drawn to bratty sub or SAMs. So, if that is something that catches my attention/interest then I have to be honest about it and know that it will be hard work to also get the submissiveness I desire. I like the playfulness and the fun scenes that can come from this type of sub. I don't really look for slaves and I am not inclined to engage with those that identify as that because it is not what I find fullfilling. But choosing a bratty sub has its challenges and I have to be willing to accept that and not become frustrated if this is the type of sub I choose to be with. There are times that I find a particular behavior or the behavior in a particular setting unacceptable and I communicate to the person. It is a work in process for the most part. But if you punish within the context of the scene then it is not really going to change the behavior. I am very big on talking, explaining and being clear. As far as real punishment is not fun, playful or erotic.

princessKatt -> RE: A sub who tops from the bottom (2/22/2009 4:38:23 PM)
quote: resistant or manipulative sub just may not have your needs at heart. There is a very real possiblity that he's only in it to meet his cravings. Having been involved for years with such a fellow I would caution you to not jump through his hoops. If he begins to manipulate a session, end it right then, but tell him why. Tell him simply that 'whatever it is you just commanded/manipulated I do for you is not what I want in a sub. This isn't all about you. It's about Me and what I want to do today, first. There will be sessions that I ask for your input and wants, but today is not that day.' Then end the session by sending him home, don't talk to him or email him for a day or two. Shun HIM, not his behavior. Similarly, if you're discussing, for example, an outing or date, and he begins to control the plans, stop him, saying, 'I want you to listen a moment. I want to go listen to whatever music, not whichever music. Today, it's about what I want, this isn't all about you. I will eventually ask you about what you want.' If his resistance continues then shun him, don't punish him. Punishing him gives him what he wants: your attention, meeting his cravings. Shun him, NOT his behavior. Tell him you are shunning him for three days, or a week, with no communication until YOU decide to communicate, beause he just 'manipulated your dating plans' and instead you want him to learn to consider your tastes, your idea of what's fun. Tell him to think about it for the next three days, and when you call him in a few days you expect him to listen to you. After you try these motivational techniques using shunning to get him to focus on his submission rather than on his needs, you'll know by his response whether he has the potential to be a keeper, or not. Thanks TM. This is along the lines of what I was looking for. Outside the bedroom he is used to getting what he wants so sometimes(even if he listens/is obedient for the most part) I think he brings a little of this into the bedroom and tries to manipulate the scene. Next time he does this, Ill give your suggestion a try:)!

beeble -> RE: A sub who tops from the bottom (2/23/2009 2:09:56 AM)
quote: princessKatt wrote: If that doesn't work yes I can easily just communicate - put it all on the table. Maybe this is best- I'll see. Talk to him first. Jeez. How else is he going to know what he's doing wrong? If he were psychic, he'd already know he was annoying you and would do something about it; since he's not psychic, he'll be left wondering why exactly you've sent him away. quote: And yes perhaps having strong feelings 4 him have made me a bit more vulnerable - possilby allowing him to sometimes manipulate the situation. I don't buy this for a second. It's perfectly possible to be in love with somebody without letting them manipulate you. beeble.

NixorPercipio -> RE: A sub who tops from the bottom (2/25/2009 8:15:03 PM)
I have to agree with the concept of completely ignoring him. There is no punishment more painful than to create a void of your attention. He will quickly be overcome by a need to connect with you and find you completely unavailable to him. I would start with three days and then try a week. It may be very hard on you but it's for the best - no phone calls, no texts, no e-mails, no nothing. He has to realize that certain things are very important to you and cannot be compromised. That just wouldn't be Suttonesque. Secondly, I'm a tad concerned that he still associates submission with his own personal release. You punish, feed or deny, but it seems like a lot of it ends with his release. He needs to get beyond this concept, to understand that his pleasure comes from your satisfaction and pleasure. He may find release along the way, but the greater pleasure, the greater service is seeing you truly happy with him. It transcends the physical. I'm glad to read that things are mostly working out and that you are fine tuning. He may never get there but at least you're making a serious effort. Congrats.

beeble -> RE: A sub who tops from the bottom (2/26/2009 1:33:23 AM)
quote: NixorPercipio wrote: I have to agree with the concept of completely ignoring him. [...] He has to realize that certain things are very important to you and cannot be compromised. And you think that saying nothing at all to him for three days is the best way to get across this very complicated idea? We've spent tens of thousands of years evolving languages beyond mere grunts for this very purpose! Use them! quote: Secondly, I'm a tad concerned that he still associates submission with his own personal release. You punish, feed or deny, but it seems like a lot of it ends with his release. He needs to get beyond this concept, to understand that his pleasure comes from your satisfaction and pleasure. I'm a tad concerned that you're governed by dogma about what a submissive should or should not expect. If she enjoys giving him orgasms, why shouldn't she do that? beeble

princessKatt -> RE: A sub who tops from the bottom (2/26/2009 4:43:57 PM)
quote: have to agree with the concept of completely ignoring him. There is no punishment more painful than to create a void of your attention. He will quickly be overcome by a need to connect with you and find you completely unavailable to him A- thx:). I know ignoring someone is not the most evolved method(as someone pointed out) but with a sub who loves and responds to a constant chase/challenge it gets his attention and does work to an extent with him. He thinks he'll will lose me so he starts to listen and focus. Whatever the reason, threatening to leave him, to not let him release or ignoring him pushes his buttons and he has stopped it a bit. With the excpetion of threatning no release/orgasm control these arent things Ive usually done however this sub is a little different. There is no issue whatsoever with anything else which is why I was very patient and a little more flexible.

hardbodysub -> RE: A sub who tops from the bottom (2/27/2009 5:41:47 AM)
To each his/her own, I guess. Ignoring may work for some, but it wouldn't work with me. It tends to make me angry, and instead of feeling deprived and afraid that she may leave me, it would make me want to leave her. Communication is by far a better option, IMO. Although, I can certainly see how, if you lock him up in chastity first, and then leave him on his own for a bit, he might start to get the right idea. quote: Secondly, I'm a tad concerned that he still associates submission with his own personal release. You punish, feed or deny, but it seems like a lot of it ends with his release. He needs to get beyond this concept, to understand that his pleasure comes from your satisfaction and pleasure. He may find release along the way, but the greater pleasure, the greater service is seeing you truly happy with him. It transcends the physical. While I agree somewhat in principle with the above, most subs simply will never be able reach the point where their domina's pleasure is the only thing that matters, and the only thiing the sub needs to be happy and satisfied. Making the domina's pleasure the top priority should be good enough. That leaves plenty of room for the sub to achieve some other pleasure for himself, as long as the domina enjoys allowing it. I believe that D/s is erotically charged for a pretty large number of subs, and for them submission is almost never completely separated from sexual arousal. If I may presume to use myself as an example, I place priority on the domina's pleasure, and enjoy doing it. When she is happy and, particularly when she is sexually excited and satisfied, that acts as an aphrodisiac for me. The desire for sexual release is going to happen, period. The fact that she decides whether or not I get it makes it more exciting, and deepens my submission to her. But it doesn't change the fact that I still care about it.

ChampagneMojito -> RE: A sub who tops from the bottom (2/27/2009 11:26:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo Start with you and figure out what you really want. He needs to do the same thing. When you both have a better idea of that, then get together and see if you can meet most of each others needs and desires. You may discover a way to do BDSM together or you may discover that you don't need it to be a happy and healthy couple. LOVE this advice. You rock, tammyjo [sm=applause.gif] E

hardbodysub -> RE: A sub who tops from the bottom (2/27/2009 12:07:57 PM)
Replying to my own post to clarify the "ignore" issue. If ignoring implies the domina waiting for a while before replying to the sub's phone calls and emails, this can be a type of "tease", and quite effective. It can make a statement of sorts, making him realize how much he needs her. I still believe that he should be told why it's happening, or else it doesn't do much good. She also needs to be careful that she doesn't ignore him in a way that is insulting, because that would be counter-productive. That's what I was trying to get at when I said that being ignored would tend to make me angry rather than more attentive. A lot depends on the "tone" of the situation.

Politesub53 -> RE: A sub who tops from the bottom (2/27/2009 4:17:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Not that it's any of my business, PS - but did it improve the relationship in the long term? I still do wonder if it can work to try to convey to a sub - somehow, god knows how - that he himself might enjoy everything more if he were more submissive . . . Peon, sorry for missing this earlier. It is fine asking me a question The relationship itself was fine, which was probably the problem. By that I mean I was so comfortable that I was pushing too many buttons. After being told off one day, I used the phrase " Thats not fair babe " ...... lets just say after being ignored, and finding out how much it hurt Her to ignore me, I didnt make the same mistake again.

TexasMaam -> RE: A sub who tops from the bottom (3/1/2009 12:07:18 PM)
I'm not suggesting that she threaten to leave him, or that she ignore him without explanation. I'm saying that telling him he's going to be out of communication, and why, followed by a period of no contact, is an effective way to stop a brat or a manipulator from pushing his own agenda, if he's serious about the relationship working. If putting him on 'shun' for three days, after having explained to him why the discipline is being put in place, makes him want to leave, then he's welcome to hit the curb. TexasMaam quote: ORIGINAL: hardbodysub To each his/her own, I guess. Ignoring may work for some, but it wouldn't work with me. It tends to make me angry, and instead of feeling deprived and afraid that she may leave me, it would make me want to leave her. Communication is by far a better option, IMO. Although, I can certainly see how, if you lock him up in chastity first, and then leave him on his own for a bit, he might start to get the right idea.

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