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RE: Educate Y/yourself - Google & Big Brother - 1/21/2006 1:53:19 AM   
Brainiac


Posts: 2
Joined: 1/20/2006
Status: offline 		I don't know about smaller search engines, but msn and yahoo are certainly no smaller than google when it comes to lawyer power. They just don't care. With one week worth of data that the gov is asking for, it is possible to do lots of things. It can also be used for other purposes in the future once they have it. They are testing what they can get and do. If google gives in, it may potentially open up the road for more, even taking steps towards forcing companies to censor, filter or analyze things for them like China does.

Having nothing to hide has nothing to do with this. This is all about privacy and having your private space. I don't want people peeking into my bedroom nor listen to my private conversations. My query logs, my im conversations etc. are no different. The data they are asking for contains lots of private information that can be mined easily. I for one, would not use a search engine that can easily disrespect my privacy. Kudos to google for not giving up without a fight. I hope they succeed.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Educate Y/yourself - Google & Big Brother - 1/21/2006 3:57:07 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
-
quote:

I don't know about smaller search engines, but msn and yahoo are certainly no smaller than google when it comes to lawyer power.


True... but the entity bringing the case against you has the epitome of unlimited resources {Tax payer money}. And with such an over-zealous justice department like we have know.....that's filled with like-minded '''creatures of the regime'', if they lose in one venue, the next time they attack in another, until the other side makes concessions or the government finally prevails.

What it comes down to.... is the people of this land need to pay attention, and not let these politicians who think it's okay to see what library books we're checking out or what we're doing in our own bedrooms, become any part of their business -- In other words, there needs to be a litmus test of sorts, that both identifies and screens out such autocratic and intrusive thinking individuals.


Like always… Just another libertarian and non-politically correct opinion.


- The Ranger



_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to Brainiac)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Educate Y/yourself - Google & Big Brother - 1/21/2006 5:00:12 AM   
krys


Posts: 611
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin
If you are not doing anything you are not supposed to, why would you care?


You should care not because of the nature of any searchs you do on the internet, but because of the loss of civil liberties. I will put this in a BDSM context. Think of the government as a slave and the people of this country as its Master. (That IS the way its supposed to work, after all, right? A government OF the people BY the people?) That slave (government) is given a task by the Master (people). I want dinner on the table by 6:00 pm every night, no exceptions. (There is an inalienable right to liberty from governmental tyrrany.) Dinner starts to get later and later on the table, sometimes it is burned. (The Patriot Act. If you dont think you have enough to actually get permission from the FISA Court to do wiretaps, just do them anyway and hope you don't get caught. When you get caught, assert that the President can do as he wishes WITHOUT concern to the checks and balances of the other branches of government that ensure that this country is not a dictatorship.) When the Master (people) let these things slide, the slave (Government) will just get further and further out of hand. Why? Because the slave (Government) can get away with it and they know their spinless Master (people) won't do anything about it. If you think under the current atmosphere of a lax attitude on upholding the rights of the people the Government will limit itself to child molesters, and that you will not eventually be effected by allowing the Government to act outside of its Constitutionally allowed parameters, you're wrong. While I am happy to hand my rights and decisions over to another on a personal level, I am rather against it as nationwide policy. Why should you care about the actions of the American government? You probably shouldn't, you're Canadian. Why should American's care about the actions of the government? We live here. Its our country, and our responsibility to make sure we keep our government in line.

_____________________________

Krys

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Educate Y/yourself - Google & Big Brother - 1/21/2006 10:30:51 AM   
brokenhallelujah


Posts: 22
Joined: 7/6/2005
Status: offline 		krys, I couldn't agree with your synopsis more. and I can't believe how thoroughly this current administration has duped a whole generation of true conservative americans (against whom I have nothing, I just disagree with them) into accepting their actions just because of the "r" in front of their name. their propaganda machine has people like my father, a decent and kind career military man who would never even THINK of intruding into anyone's personal life just because he didn't agree with their choices, just scared enough of some nebulous threat to our country to agree with the necessity of the patriot act.

I can't even really vote dem, in many cases, just because they have gone along with this for so long. did it take the actual material abuses of power that we are currently observing to wake us up to the implications that were there all along? I guess so. and that terrifies me. if we aren't paying enough attention to the people we HIRED to do the job of running the country, how can we, as a nation, expect anything to be done according to our wishes. "we the people" aren't really keeping ourselves abreast of the issues.

my grandfather, another lifelong true conservative, whom I love, admire, respect, and trust, but disagree with in most things political, recently quipped, "I remember a time when, if you didn't trust the government and didn't want them involved in every aspect of your life, you voted republican."

we have certainly experienced a change. why haven't more people noticed?

(in reply to krys)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Educate Y/yourself - Google & Big Brother - 1/21/2006 1:45:34 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		It is not that I am not concerned about the government. If the US government does it, others will no doubt follow. That will include My country at some point I am sure. I just do not have a problem with the government collecting random samples. If they hold no personally identifiable information, but they are looking to observe certain trends and statistics I do not see the problem with this.

Information is readily available. Do you subscribe to Air Miles? If so, people are tracking your every move. What you bought and where. At what time and in what quantity. This information is worth millions of dollars. Yet you subscribe to it because you hope that at some point in your life you might earn free movie passes.

All I am saying is that people are tracking every aspect of your life as it is, with gas station points, credit cards or whatever. Why do you care about random samples of a search engine? There is no difference.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to brokenhallelujah)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Educate Y/yourself - Google & Big Brother - 1/21/2006 2:08:06 PM   
krys


Posts: 611
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline 		Sadly, that attitude is how dictatorships start. Well its not ME, so its perfectly okay for the government to invade the privacy of others. Unfortunately, eventually it will be you too. It opens the door a crack and once there is a foot in the door, its just that much easier the next time.

What scares me more than this situation is the comments by the President that it is irresponsible to question the motivations for going into war. First its irresponsible. Then its dangerous. Next, it will be criminal.

Those that do not see the problem, those that do not question, will awaken in a brave new world, probably genuinely puzzled as to how they got there.

_____________________________

Krys

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Educate Y/yourself - Google & Big Brother - 1/21/2006 5:12:50 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		I hear what you are saying, and understand where you are coming from, but the reality is that you have someone scrutinizing every aspect of your life. RIGHT NOW. And these are not governments doing this. These are big businesses, the REAL government of the country. It is hypocritical to point the finger at the government and scream BIG BROTHER!!!!! at them when you are allowing the true government to spy on every aspect of your personal life.

For instance. Did you know that your ISP is tracking your every move as you surf the internet? No, you probably did not. Horrifically accurate logs are kept of anything and everything you do. Every you go. Every pair of b@@bies you stare at. Your ISP knows. The thing is, there is no Law protecting that information really. It is like an open book to government agencies. Why are you not complaining about that?

When you shop at a store, and in particular Wal-mart or a big grocery store, everything you buy is recorded and logged. The data is then analyzed for marketing effectiveness. Everything that you see in Wal-mart, from the music that you hear, to the displays, to the product placements are all based on YOUR data. Your data is worth millions of dollars and you do not even see a penny of it.

Yet hear you are, complaining about random, meaningless statistics in a half-assed effort of the government child porn crackdown initiative, all worried about a perceived privacy that you do not even have, and have not had for the past several decades, with or without your knowledge.

It does not make any sense.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to krys)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Educate Y/yourself - Google & Big Brother - 1/21/2006 5:38:58 PM   
krys


Posts: 611
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline 		How it is being hypocritical? Hypocrisy means to express thoughts or feelings that one does not possess, so I'm a little confused as to what you are trying to say. Wrong word perhaps?

Your assumptions about my computer knowledge are pretty far off base. I am not complaining about that because I entered into a voluntary relationship with those businesses, on the internet and in person, with which I choose to interact. I choose which businesses I feel I wish to obtain information about me through my choice in purchases and by utilization of certain services. If I do not agree with the business practices of a certain business, I do not utilize their services or products. That is how one expresses and enforces their choice amongst businesses. When it comes to government, the way one expresses and enforces their choices and preferences is through things like voting and speaking out against the government when one feels they are doing something wrong. I also don't use the P.A. system at Wal-Mart to have personal conversations with my friends and loved ones, so I am not particularly concerned about Wal-Mart picking that up. While my ISP may take that information and utilize it, I am less concerned about my ISP utilizing it to try to sell me a car than the government utilizing it to use it against people with my political views.

In summation, I am not a believer in the end justifying the means, or two wrongs making a right.

_____________________________

Krys

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Educate Y/yourself - Google & Big Brother - 1/21/2006 6:02:34 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		Well you see, it is all the same kettle of fish. Wal-mart is watching you. Walgreens is watching you. Your ISP is watching you. Google is watching you. Amex is watching you. Your bank is watching you. Visa. Mastercard. Aeroplan. EVERYBODY is watching you.

If you are so worried about something as bloody stupid as the government collecting random samples, do not use the search engine. Simple. There are all kinds of search engines on the internet. Last I knew there were well over 100 mainstream ones.

What it all boils down to? You pays your money and you takes your choice. Do not cry about one when you do not cry about the other thousand.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to krys)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Educate Y/yourself - Google & Big Brother - 1/22/2006 4:18:07 AM   
krys


Posts: 611
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline 		The thing is it is a not the same kettle of fish. My issue is not with the "watching you" scenario, its with the misuse of governmental powers to violate civil liberties. Why would I stop using the search engine? Its not their fault they are the current target of a government wishing to misuse its power. Actually the fact that they took a stand makes me want to use them more, not less. I really dont see how a punishing the victim scenario would be helpful in stopping the government from overstepping its boundaries. I paid my money, and political activism is my choice.

_____________________________

Krys

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Educate Y/yourself - Google & Big Brother - 1/22/2006 1:34:52 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		Ok, you speak about the government misusing it's powers. Fair enough. I will grant you that. But My point is that is an incredibly biased perception. What about big business misusing their powers? I do not see you complaining about that. The real government in the county is big business, as I have explained to you already in this thread. Where is your activism there?

It sounds to Me more like misguided anger, or perhaps even a lack of thought in the process. Or is it possibly because you do not feel you can do anything about big business and therefore have made a conscious choice to ignore it?

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to krys)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Educate Y/yourself - Google & Big Brother - 1/22/2006 3:12:38 PM   
MadameDahlia


Posts: 2021
Joined: 8/11/2004
From: SoCal aka Hell
Status: offline 		Instead of bickering about whether or not this is going on... why don't those who feel it is happening brainstorm ideas on how to fight it?

Does arguing here make the problem go away? Will it really change the minds of those who either can't, won't or simply do not wish to see it? And who knows... maybe the naysayers are right. Maybe all those pleasant men in their lovely suits are really looking after our interests. Maybe it's all just one crazy kooky conspiracy theory cooked up by anti-Bush or anti-Republican or anti-war zealots. Maybe it really is all about cracking down on that vile unmentionable porn.

But if that isn't the case... and if we're all so bleeding worried about it... let's do something. Let's not just sit back until we're the only ones left!

Let's get a list of names to write to... people to call... let's get organized. How does anyone expect anything to change if we all just sit back and chew on the idea for days, weeks, months?

Let's not wait until the damage has been done... until there are guards posted at every doorstep... until all of your electronic devices are monitored and recorded -- for your "safety" of course.

Either put out or shut up...

Though... I'm all in favor of seeing anyone worried about this, anyone invested in the future of the United States to start putting forth a bit more effort than what typing a few sentences requires.

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

- Pastor Martin Niemöller

< Message edited by MadameDahlia -- 1/22/2006 3:15:21 PM >

_____________________________

Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
--R. D. Laing

"Oh, but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Educate Y/yourself - Google & Big Brother - 1/22/2006 3:27:27 PM   
girl4you2


Posts: 1622
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
"First Bush and Gonzales came for the terrorists, but I was not a terrorist,
so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the enemy combatants, but I was not a combatant,
so I did not object.
Then they came for the protestors resisting "free speech zones" near Bush campaign rallies, but I was not a protestor
and so I only voiced my unease.

If we - and our elected representatives - do not speak out now, loudly and forcefully, it may not be long before they come for the rest of us."

Thom Hartmann

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0110-33.htm

_____________________________

maireann croí éadrom i bhfad. is maith an scáthán súil charad. is leor nod don eolach.
got shoes?

(in reply to MadameDahlia)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Educate Y/yourself - Google & Big Brother - 1/22/2006 3:49:24 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		Cute, but when Hitler came for the Jews the world went after him. When the communist regime disintegrated (noone went after them, by the way... ooops), a new more profitable democracy was established. Some things are for the common good, Chicken Little. Less child porn on the internet never hurt anyone. It is a disease that needs to be cured. Seeing as how you poor saps are not doing anything about it, do not cry when someone has to take the initiative and step in. The government is here for the people, by the people for the common good of all.. Not for a couple of babies that are afraid about protecting their porn.

I have nothing against adults having porn. If they want to wack off to naked pictures because they are not getting any, let them. That is their right. It is NOT their right to have child porn. It is NOT the right of the pornographer to exploit children to make it.

Where is your activism there? Who are you so concerned about? Are you concerned about protecting your no right to child porn, or are you concerned about the rights of the thousands of innocent children getting exploited to feed the machine? Where is your activism now? Why do you not apply your energies to more worthwhile pursuits? Maybe if you got off your duff to do something about child pornography the government would not have to.

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 1/22/2006 3:52:29 PM >

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to MadameDahlia)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Educate Y/yourself - Google & Big Brother - 1/22/2006 4:15:17 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Cute, but when Hitler came for the Jews the world went after him.


Actually, it didn't. None of the declarations of war even mentioned the Jews or other internal matters.

Frankly the world didn't care.

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Educate Y/yourself - Google & Big Brother - 1/22/2006 5:41:03 PM   
MadameDahlia


Posts: 2021
Joined: 8/11/2004
From: SoCal aka Hell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Cute, but when Hitler came for the Jews the world went after him.


America most certainly did not.

“The first and most enduring principle of American foreign policy was isolationism. As expressed by George Washington in 1796, isolationism meant that there should be no permanent alliances and “as little political connection as possible” with foreign nations. This policy only applied to political relations because the United States continued to trade with other nations and to expand its territory. In the early 1800s the United States extended its isolationist polices to all of the Western Hemisphere with the Monroe Doctrine of 1823. This doctrine stated that the United States would stay out of European wars and that European nations should not attempt to extend their influence into the Americas.

America’s policy of isolationism continued after World War I (1914-1918), when European countries created the League of Nations to establish a collective security system. At that time the U.S. Senate refused to join the league despite President Woodrow Wilson’s support for it. It was only after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941—the event that brought America into World War II—that isolationism disappeared. After the war ended, the United States became involved in a system of alliances and regional defense associations. These associations, which specified that an attack on one member was an attack on all and would require a suitable collective response, included the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), the Organization of American States (OAS), and the now-defunct Southeast Asia Treaty Organization (SEATO). These collective security alliances were adopted when the United States entered a 40-year period of mutual distrust—the Cold War—with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR).”

- MSN Encarta – http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_1741500781_11/United_States_(Government).html

The United States did not enter World War II for such an altruistic purpose.


< Message edited by MadameDahlia -- 1/22/2006 5:43:36 PM >

_____________________________

Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
--R. D. Laing

"Oh, but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Educate Y/yourself - Google & Big Brother - 1/22/2006 5:52:19 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadameDahlia

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Cute, but when Hitler came for the Jews the world went after him.


America most certainly did not.



And the US wasn't alone. Anyone aware of the voyage of the Saint Louis in 1939 has to be appalled at how the world directly and overtly turned away jewish refugees and returned them to Germany where most of them died.

Those who fail to study history or study it though glasses made of their hopes and prejudices are eventually doomed.

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to MadameDahlia)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Educate Y/yourself - Google & Big Brother - 1/22/2006 6:01:29 PM   
brightspot


Posts: 3052
Status: offline
quote:

“When you are looking at that blank search box, you should remember that what you fill can come back to haunt you unless you take precautions,” she said."


I hope Google holds out!

Stop Privacy Invasion by the Government Now!

Oh and in the next election; VOTE!

*Brightspot

_____________________________

"Comedy is NOT Pretty!" ~Peter Nelson

But..."May at Least One person have a sense of Humor!" ~KML.

http://360.yahoo.com/my_profile-TD4TwEw8crWS3GHFDcs_DK1rHmW6Dq_E;_ylt=Av2PfG9gH0wkQrMPivuMCivGAOJ3

(in reply to girl4you2)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Educate Y/yourself - Google & Big Brother - 1/22/2006 6:30:53 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		there is one aspect of what sirkenin said that seems to have gone unoticed.....your google searchs are logged by your ISP as well as google, and with far more personally identifiable information. If the Gvt really wanted to get information on google searchs for any thing in particular, they would only have to go after the ISPs.
I think the real issue here is that the Gvt is trying to force google to provide them with information, information on which there is an understood agreement of privacy between google and its users, surely the concept of "a reasonable expectation of privacy" applies to somebody in their own home doing a google search.
While this particular request (and the info it is asking for) is likely inocuous, it is the precedent that is not. It is the precedent that should be worrying people, and saying it is ridiculous to assume the Gvt would use that precedent for any other data is naive, they will, and it is just a matter of time before each and everyone of us is in someway affected by it. I am not an American, however I could easily forsee being denied entry to the US based on my name appearing on some database of people who searched for "subversive" or "unamerican" information.
So while I happen to not be personally worried if my google searchs are used for statistical analysis, what does worry me is that I have not given my consent to it.


_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


(in reply to brightspot)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Educate Y/yourself - Google & Big Brother - 1/26/2006 1:08:39 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Laughing...yeah, great analogy there. So what if we have to relive WW II and the Holocaust and Stalinism--of course we'll get the dictators in the end! Just wait!

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Cute, but when Hitler came for the Jews the world went after him. When the communist regime disintegrated (noone went after them, by the way... ooops), a new more profitable democracy was established. Some things are for the common good, Chicken Little.


(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 40
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