RE: New York Post Cartoon: Is Obama the chimp... (Full Version)

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MasterShake69 -> RE: New York Post Cartoon: Is Obama the chimp... (2/24/2009 7:52:54 PM)

Aw poor baby...can’t stand having your liberal double standard exposed ;) Now after losing your argument all you are left with is anger and the need to lash out ;)


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Why can't they moderate  stupidity?...Preferably in the womb.



DominantDamsel -> RE: New York Post Cartoon: Is Obama the chimp... (2/24/2009 9:55:38 PM)

~fr~

I hate this cartoon but not because it has anything to do with race or the president. To my point of view, I see nothing racist nor any implication of the same toward our president; instead I see this as attempting to make something humorous out of the awful incident where the monkey was killed after harming others and there is nothing whatsoever funny about it. It is in very bad taste.

Comparing the stimulus bill and the writers thereof to the bullet-riddled chimp's carcass helps no one feel better about any of it, and it just isn't funny. I'm unimpressed by this cartoon creator's sense of humor.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: New York Post Cartoon: Is Obama the chimp... (2/24/2009 10:19:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
This is usually the time that I get myself moderated... It is when I have discovered that I am dealing with someone that is unable to read, or is incapable of digesting in a sane manner that which they have read or written.


If you know this is where you usually lose control of yourself, then why don't you do something about it and practice a little self-control? Don't blame him just because repeating your same empty argument over and over and over again doesn't trick him into thinking that means you've won the argument. Try to get this into your head. The people who do not agree with you are not disagreeing because we don't get what you're saying - we hear you. And hear you. And hear you. We disagree because what you're saying (over and over and over and over) just doesn't make any sense no matter how many times you clench your fists and shout it at us.

The cartoon explicitly refers to the people who wrote the stimulus bill.

Obama did not write the stimulus bill.

The fact that you can trawl up bazillions of headlines referring to it as "Obama's stimulus plan" does not mean he wrote it. Everybody knows he didn't, no matter what the headlines call the bill.

Thus, the cartoon does not refer to Obama.

Your argument is completely without factual foundation, and is nothing more than an argument from emotion.

Now, if you can find one article that reveals that Obama did write the stimulus bill after all, then you'll have  a point. Until then, you're just banging the same little bitty toy drum until your arm wears out, and it really isn't half as amusing as some of your other skits occasionally are. If you don't have an intelligent argument to make, why don't you just drop it?



Owner59 -> RE: New York Post Cartoon: Is Obama the chimp... (2/24/2009 10:25:14 PM)

Muuurdock came out and personally apologized,today.

Do you guys get the feeling that you`re screaming at the ocean?

Even Muuurdock, gets it.



ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: New York Post Cartoon: Is Obama the chimp... (2/24/2009 10:36:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Muuurdock came out and personally apologized,today.

Do you guys get the feeling that you`re screaming at the ocean?

Even Muuurdock, gets it.


""It was not meant to be racist, but unfortunately, it was interpreted by many as such."

So what? In other words, "No, the cartoon was not about Obama, but some people leaped to the erroneous conclusion that it was, and we're sorry that made them angry." If anything, the apology supports our point. It does nothing at all to support yours, unfortunately.



MasterShake69 -> RE: New York Post Cartoon: Is Obama the chimp... (2/24/2009 11:04:29 PM)

Get enough people to pile on and you got murdock to cry uncle.
wow.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Muuurdock came out and personally apologized,today.

Do you guys get the feeling that you`re screaming at the ocean?

Even Muuurdock, gets it.



Owner59 -> RE: New York Post Cartoon: Is Obama the chimp... (2/24/2009 11:09:44 PM)

So you`re calling it a non-apology apology.

Interesting... This would be the 2nd,then.

Perhaps the insincerity was more about market share than culpability.

Most cons don`t know or consider the fact that the African American demographic is a huge part of the Fox viewership.Muuurdock does,tho.Not Fox News mind you(that has a whole other target audience,lol),but the Fox network,channel 5 in NYC earns a lot of advert dollars selling to that community.

You`re right,he isn`t really sorry.This is about money.

Thanks for clearing this up and helping me understand.



Lorr47 -> RE: New York Post Cartoon: Is Obama the chimp... (2/25/2009 6:35:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterHypnotist

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47

quote:

To continue to insist this cartoon is racist, when you now know that it was not printed as such, can only indicate racist attitudes of the protestors.


By your logic, or lack thereof,  if  I came up to you and shot you between your eyes; and thereafter issued a statement that I actually had no intent to shoot you between your eyes; then the "fact" is  established beyond all doubt that I had no intent to shoot you between your eyes.  Don't you think my statement to be sort of self serving?



Well, this certainly takes this to a new level of... ~shrugs~ something. I'm sure there is a word, but damned if I know what it is right now. You've left me gasping for "logical air," and there is none in the room. Owner59, you're taking notes, right?

> The chimp is not caricatured or labeled as an African-American.

> The chimp is not caricatured or labeled as President Obama.

> The cartoon is based on a current event where police killed a chimp.

> The cartoon borrows from a cultural metaphor (that I got) of what monkeys could do with typewriters.

> The cartoon refers to the Democrat Stimulus Package as if the chimp had written it, but represents no one individual. Since in real life only one monkey was shot, only one monkey was used in the political cartoon.

> People with an agenda, or a sensitivity, or both, to racial stereotypes of apes/monkeys being used to caricature people of color, took offense.

> The NYP stated that they are mistaken, and apologized to almost all of the people who demonstrated that they took offense. The only people not apologized to are people, such as Rev. Al Sharpton, who are trying to make social, racial, and political hay out of this.

> Most people who took offense, are not accepting the apology. They have that right.

So, your "analogy" does not fit. I think your post is self-serving.

Go ahead. Be offended. But take responsibility for taking offense. It is your world view, experiences or expectations, that lead you to make the assumption that you did. Take responsibility for then attempting to impose your sensibilities where they were not intended.

As I said before, let us hope and pray for a day when a similar cartoon only offends PETA and the SPCA.

MH


I once had a professor who in response to totally inane answers merely said "to-wit?"

To-wit?



MasterHypnotist -> RE: New York Post Cartoon: Is Obama the chimp... (2/25/2009 6:50:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

So you`re calling it a non-apology apology.

Interesting... This would be the 2nd,then.

Perhaps the insincerity was more about market share than culpability.

Most cons don`t know or consider the fact that the African American demographic is a huge part of the Fox viewership.Muuurdock does,tho.Not Fox News mind you(that has a whole other target audience,lol),but the Fox network,channel 5 in NYC earns a lot of advert dollars selling to that community.

You`re right,he isn`t really sorry.This is about money.

Thanks for clearing this up and helping me understand.


Oh, my... this is just too rich. Owner59 is reading the headlines again, instead of the content. Hold out your hand, Owner59, and let me give it too you. Do I have any hope that you will publicly state you get it, now? nahhhhhhhhhh. I'm just giving you another opportunity to not read or face facts.
 
From CNN.com, updated 8:37 a.m. EST, Tue February 24, 2009 (isn't it amazing that I can't websearch the original apology, but rather only the op-ed articles about the apology?)

Murdoch: "Today I want to personally apologize to any reader who felt offended, and even insulted," said the statement from Murdoch, who is also chairman and chief executive of News Corporation, which owns the paper.

"I can assure you -- without a doubt -- that the only intent of that cartoon was to mock a badly written piece of legislation.

"It was not meant to be racist, but unfortunately, it was interpreted by many as such. We all hold the readers of the New York Post in high regard, and I promise you that we will seek to be more attuned to the sensitivities of our community."

How much clearer can it be. Yes, racists are monkey piling on this story. "Monkey piling" being a referrent to kids jumping onto  a pile of kids just for the fun of jumping on the pile of kids, and nothing more. Yes, there is still outrage. But what other honest apology can be made when, "I can assure you -- without a doubt -- that the only intent of that cartoon was to mock a badly written piece of legislation."
 
Have glee over the misfortune that this has caused the NYP and cartoonist Sean Delanos if you want, but just be straightforward about it. Other people claiming that the cartoon is racist, does not make it racist. It simply reveals their sensitivities, or agenda.
 
If Owner59 is still reading, here is the rest of the CNN.com article,
 
The cartoon by Sean Delonas referenced the mauling of a Connecticut woman by a chimpanzee who was later shot and killed by police. In the caption, one of the officers says, "They'll have to find someone else to write the next stimulus bill."

The cartoon was published on Wednesday, a day after President Obama signed the stimulus bill.

The Post issued a statement the following day, apologizing but noting that the cartoon was meant to mock what it called an "ineptly written" stimulus bill.

Many critics said the cartoon played on historically racist images by appearing to compare Obama, the nation's first black president, to the chimpanzee.

Leaders of the NAACP on Saturday called for the firing of Delonas.

Delonas called the controversy "absolutely friggin' ridiculous."

"Do you really think I'm saying Obama should be shot? I didn't see that in the cartoon," Delonas told CNN. "It's about the economic stimulus bill," he added. "If you're going to make that about anybody, it would be [House Speaker Nancy] Pelosi, which it's not."

Go ahead, Owner59, feign confusion. That you are dissatisfied that Murdoch/Post/Delanos haven't caved and made a false apology is obvious.

Turns out every explanation made by ThatDamnedPanda, MasterShake69, and me is stated in this one little article. All you, domiguy and others have, is also in this one little article, people are expressing outrage because they are projecting racial metaphors, and agenda driven groups are trying to inflict punishment.
 
Why don't we all just leave the last word to CNN.com. It seems a fair synopsis, to me.
 
All the best,
 
MH




Owner59 -> RE: New York Post Cartoon: Is Obama the chimp... (2/25/2009 7:37:15 AM)

Feign confusion? Mum ,ever heard of sarcasm?

More like UN-ravel the confusion.lol

1st the stim-bill and the "someone" who wrote it.

Then it`s not the "someone" but all of congress, that ya`ll are talk`n about.

Yesterday I heard your  leader dearest,Rush, refer to the plan as Obama`s.

There`s no confusion about who the perp is here and the"someONE" they were referring too.






thishereboi -> RE: New York Post Cartoon: Is Obama the chimp... (2/25/2009 8:11:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Feign confusion? Mum ,ever heard of sarcasm?

More like UN-ravel the confusion.lol

1st the stim-bill and the "someone" who wrote it.

Then it`s not the "someone" but all of congress, that ya`ll are talk`n about.

Yesterday I heard your  leader dearest,Rush, refer to the plan as Obama`s.

There`s no confusion about who the perp is here and the"someONE" they were referring too.



Still listening to Rush.....that explains so much.



MasterHypnotist -> RE: New York Post Cartoon: Is Obama the chimp... (2/25/2009 9:35:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterHypnotist

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47

quote:

To continue to insist this cartoon is racist, when you now know that it was not printed as such, can only indicate racist attitudes of the protestors.


By your logic, or lack thereof,  if  I came up to you and shot you between your eyes; and thereafter issued a statement that I actually had no intent to shoot you between your eyes; then the "fact" is  established beyond all doubt that I had no intent to shoot you between your eyes.  Don't you think my statement to be sort of self serving?



Well, this certainly takes this to a new level of... ~shrugs~ something. I'm sure there is a word, but damned if I know what it is right now. You've left me gasping for "logical air," and there is none in the room. Owner59, you're taking notes, right?

> The chimp is not caricatured or labeled as an African-American.

> The chimp is not caricatured or labeled as President Obama.

> The cartoon is based on a current event where police killed a chimp.

> The cartoon borrows from a cultural metaphor (that I got) of what monkeys could do with typewriters.

> The cartoon refers to the Democrat Stimulus Package as if the chimp had written it, but represents no one individual. Since in real life only one monkey was shot, only one monkey was used in the political cartoon.

> People with an agenda, or a sensitivity, or both, to racial stereotypes of apes/monkeys being used to caricature people of color, took offense.

> The NYP stated that they are mistaken, and apologized to almost all of the people who demonstrated that they took offense. The only people not apologized to are people, such as Rev. Al Sharpton, who are trying to make social, racial, and political hay out of this.

> Most people who took offense, are not accepting the apology. They have that right.

So, your "analogy" does not fit. I think your post is self-serving.

Go ahead. Be offended. But take responsibility for taking offense. It is your world view, experiences or expectations, that lead you to make the assumption that you did. Take responsibility for then attempting to impose your sensibilities where they were not intended.

As I said before, let us hope and pray for a day when a similar cartoon only offends PETA and the SPCA.

MH


I once had a professor who in response to totally inane answers merely said "to-wit?"

To-wit?



To-wit... It was not, and is not, a racist cartoon. To claim that it is racist indicates a sensitivity that projects racism, or an agenda that needs to claim racism.
 
MH



MasterHypnotist -> RE: New York Post Cartoon: Is Obama the chimp... (2/25/2009 10:10:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Yesterday I heard your  leader dearest,Rush, refer to the plan as Obama`s.

You listen to Limbaugh more than I do. Pre-election, once I decided to vote for Ralph Nader, again, I quit listening. I've been listening to books on CD (I highly recommend, BLINK, but don't remember the author) and FM Rock.

There`s no confusion about who the perp is here and the"someONE" they were referring too.

Argue the cartoon creator, Delonas, as quoted by CNN, "Do you really think I'm saying Obama should be shot? I didn't see that in the cartoon," Delonas told CNN. "It's about the economic stimulus bill," he added. "If you're going to make that about anybody, it would be [House Speaker Nancy] Pelosi, which it's not."



Owner59, and others... you can see what you want to see. But it's not the author's fault if your perception is incorrect and you refuse to step back and say, ooops, my bad. Rant all ya want. Take glee in the NYP turmoil. Be proud that social and political machines with more clout than all of us here in CM, are pushing to punish the NYP on a false premise. Predict that people will lose their jobs, and be happy about it! I thought hope and change were things to look forward to, not enforce regardless of the cost. I wonder how many NYP employees will be added to welfare roles because of circulation and advertising lost to agenda driven political pressure?
 
Apparently, Murdoch, the Op-Ed manager, and Delonas are not going to cop to a false confession of guilt. The sad thing is, it may be a pyrrhic victory. Lord knows the ACLU won't come to any of their aid.
 
Yes, the facts matter... especially when they don't agree with opinions,
 
MH
 
 



Lorr47 -> RE: New York Post Cartoon: Is Obama the chimp... (2/25/2009 3:23:32 PM)

quote:

To-wit... It was not, and is not, a racist cartoon. To claim that it is racist indicates a sensitivity that projects racism, or an agenda that needs to claim racism.

MH


I have never said whether I feel the cartoon was racist nor not.  My argument is with your statement that the cartoon was not racist because the newspaper said it was not racist.  Blindly following the statements of others and not thinking for yourself leads to stupid statements.



domiguy -> RE: New York Post Cartoon: Is Obama the chimp... (2/25/2009 3:36:42 PM)

Last post on the subject...Too many have the inability to play fair or to read. 

Many have said that the Post did not intend to portray the monkey as obama because he did not "write" the bill. 
No matter how much mastershake erroneously complains (I personally think he might be illiterate) I proceed to place a number of links that show The Post referring to the stimulus bill as being Obamas'.

Masterhyp....if the post refers to the stimulus bill as obamas then who else can the monkey represent?  this is where your argument loses steam. 

It is fine for me to say that it is not....But when my own words contradict that stance then I am either a liar a rascist or both.

So look at your own statements about why the monkey could not be Obama...then read the links that I provided. (they are all from the post and they are not quoting anyone...(Again, dont rely on mastershake...Not only might he be illiterate, he loves Star Trek and cartoons, per his profile)The Post makes it clear time and time again by referring to Obamas' stimulus plan.  How confusing is this?

The Stimulus Plan is Obamas'. The dead chimp wrote the stimulus bill. 



MasterHypnotist -> RE: New York Post Cartoon: Is Obama the chimp... (2/25/2009 3:57:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47

quote:

To-wit... It was not, and is not, a racist cartoon. To claim that it is racist indicates a sensitivity that projects racism, or an agenda that needs to claim racism.

MH


I have never said whether I feel the cartoon was racist nor not.  My argument is with your statement that the cartoon was not racist because the newspaper said it was not racist.  Blindly following the statements of others and not thinking for yourself leads to stupid statements.


We both feel the same way, just from different perspectives. I do not view the cartoon as racist. My mind went directly to the monkeys and typrewriters metaphor. My mind did not default to racist stereotypes. Why? My sheltered up-bringing, I'm sure.
 
The people who know, say it was not written or presented to be racist, but rather it is a political commentary. Therefor, I have no reason to change my initial impression. After the fact, and ignoring what the creator of the cartoon stated, I will shrug and say, just to try to get along, that the cartoon is ambiguous. I am not comfortable with making such a statement, however. I am more comfortable with honestly saying, "I am sorry you took unintended racist offense at the politically inspired cartoon."
 
My argument is with your statement that the caroon is racist because Rev. Al Sharpton, et al, said it was racist. Blindly following the statements of others and not thinking for yourself leads to stupid statements.
 
We're at an impasse.
 
I can live with that,
 
MH



MasterShake69 -> RE: New York Post Cartoon: Is Obama the chimp... (2/25/2009 9:07:10 PM)

So this cartoonist along with other writers conspired together.  Since another writer on the post on another story not associated to the chimp story, called it Obama’s stimulus plan that means all writers and cartoonists believe this was Obama’s stimulus plan.  Even though the cartoonist didn’t call it Obama’s stimulus plan, is ill relevant.  All that’s required is another author of another entirely different story in the post to refer to the stimulus plan as Obama’s stimulus plan.

Just want to know this is all what’s required by the left.  It will be fun reversing this standard to the other media outlets like abc, nbc, cbs, cnn, NYT ;)




quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Last post on the subject...Too many have the inability to play fair or to read. 

Many have said that the Post did not intend to portray the monkey as obama because he did not "write" the bill. 
No matter how much mastershake erroneously complains (I personally think he might be illiterate) I proceed to place a number of links that show The Post referring to the stimulus bill as being Obamas'.

Masterhyp....if the post refers to the stimulus bill as obamas then who else can the monkey represent?  this is where your argument loses steam. 

It is fine for me to say that it is not....But when my own words contradict that stance then I am either a liar a rascist or both.

So look at your own statements about why the monkey could not be Obama...then read the links that I provided. (they are all from the post and they are not quoting anyone...(Again, dont rely on mastershake...Not only might he be illiterate, he loves Star Trek and cartoons, per his profile)The Post makes it clear time and time again by referring to Obamas' stimulus plan.  How confusing is this?

The Stimulus Plan is Obamas'. The dead chimp wrote the stimulus bill. 




Lorr47 -> RE: New York Post Cartoon: Is Obama the chimp... (2/26/2009 2:37:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterHypnotist

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47

quote:

To-wit... It was not, and is not, a racist cartoon. To claim that it is racist indicates a sensitivity that projects racism, or an agenda that needs to claim racism.

MH


I have never said whether I feel the cartoon was racist nor not.  My argument is with your statement that the cartoon was not racist because the newspaper said it was not racist.  Blindly following the statements of others and not thinking for yourself leads to stupid statements.


We both feel the same way, just from different perspectives. I do not view the cartoon as racist. My mind went directly to the monkeys and typrewriters metaphor. My mind did not default to racist stereotypes. Why? My sheltered up-bringing, I'm sure.

I still have not said whether I feel the cartoon was racist but domiguy's entry is compelling.
 
The people who know, say it was not written or presented to be racist, but rather it is a political commentary. Therefor, I have no reason to change my initial impression. After the fact, and ignoring what the creator of the cartoon stated, I will shrug and say, just to try to get along, that the cartoon is ambiguous. I am not comfortable with making such a statement, however. I am more comfortable with honestly saying, "I am sorry you took unintended racist offense at the politically inspired cartoon."

"The people who know," here we go again.  Your argument that the cartoon is not racist because the newspaper says it was not racist.  Self serving dribble.
 
My argument is with your statement that the caroon is racist because Rev. Al Sharpton, et al, said it was racist. Blindly following the statements of others and not thinking for yourself leads to stupid statements.

I never mentioned Sharpton and he certainly is not my favorite person.  Sharpton's statement is as self serving as the newspaper's statement.  Then again, I think for myself.
We're at an impasse.



 
I can live with that,

I can go to sleep tonight knowing the future of the republican party and neo conservatism is in such capable hands.
 
MH



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