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RE: Chronic Pain, or fuck the Doctors - 2/20/2009 6:30:57 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Doctors are bad enough...but the insurance companies are just as bad... I take many pain meds a day...If I've had a particularly bad week I'll often use them up too quick. The damn insurance companies will not refill... they could care less how much you suffer.

As a suffer of Trigeminal Neuralgia I feel for you my friend...I'm about to give up on meds and get the surgery...AND I've had a total hip replacement... Posterior Lumbar Fusion...and a great toe Arthroplasty ..And I can tell you the damn foot hurt worse then all of them...except the TM...nothing like that.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 2/20/2009 6:32:07 PM >

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RE: Chronic Pain, or fuck the Doctors - 2/20/2009 6:38:28 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline 		I help moderate a chronic pain group on B.com (yes, me, a mod there, and on perma-"awaiting approval" here. Oh the irony hahaha ) and Heather posted this a while back:

"The Narcotics Trap"



When you show up complaining that something hurts, the easiest way for a doctor to get you out of the office is to send you off with a prescription for a pain medication that contains a narcotic (like Vicodin or OxyContin). The drugs are relatively easy to get and tempting to take, but you should never use them for chronic pain. Narcotics addiction is insidious. The drugs change who you are, and over time they make any and every pain worse. Stay away from them except in cases of acute, time-limited pain — and if you're on them already, work hard to get off them.


heahter's comment: Dr. Haig, let me suggest that you experience chronic pain, then see if you agree with your statement. And I don't mean "chronic" as in "I hurt my ACL and it was owie for a few months." I mean "chronic" as in "every day when I wake up my [body part] hurts more than anything I've ever felt, and I've contemplated suicide because of it." That kind of hurt.
Enduring pain is overrated and has REAL negative effects on your life and your body. I'll take the risk of addiction (which is relatively small; I'm actually more concerned about my liver) over living with a seven or eight out of ten on the pain scale every single day or nearly every day."

My response:
"I stumbled across this in the Nov.24, 2006 edition of Counterpunch.

"The damage wreaked by products and procedures foisted on the American people by pharmaceutical and "health care" corporations is incalculable. This week the Journal of the American Medical Association published a study showing that 300,000 unnecessary back surgeries are performed each year. The gratuitous operations are sold by surgeons on the basis of a flat-out lie, i.e., that doing nothing can result in permanent nerve damage and possible loss of bowel or bladder control. No such outcomes were reported in the large study led by James Weinstein, MD, a professor of orthopedic surgery at Dartmouth.
Weinstein's team looked at some 2,000 patients who had been diagnosed at pain clinics with sciatica -pain from ruptured disks that typically shoots down a leg- and compared the results of those who opted for surgery with those who chose to wait for the pain to recede on its own. After two years, 70% in each group reported significantly reduced pain. Gina Kolata of the New York Times, who reported on the JAMA study Nov. 22, implied that the side effects were equivalent: "No one who waited had serious consequences, and no one who had surgery had a disastrous result." Surgery -even surgery deemed successful - is a serious consequence unto itself and is frequently mentioned as a source of pain by Californians seeking physician approval to medicate with cannabis."

Haig is an orthopedic surgeon. He makes his money by cutting people. How many times has he possibly performed an unnecessary operation? Let's face it, a back operation is a lot more profitable than prescribing generic percocet."

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RE: Chronic Pain, or fuck the Doctors - 2/20/2009 6:49:10 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Doctors are bad enough...but the insurance companies are just as bad... I take many pain meds a day...If I've had a particularly bad week I'll often use them up too quick. The damn insurance companies will not refill... they could care less how much you suffer.

As a suffer of Trigeminal Neuralgia I feel for you my friend...I'm about to give up on meds and get the surgery...AND I've had a total hip replacement... Posterior Lumbar Fusion...and a great toe Arthroplasty ..And I can tell you the damn foot hurt worse then all of them...except the TM...nothing like that.

Butch
I have severe arthritis in my left foot. There are days when I just want to cut it off.

I had a bout of Trigeminal pain after surgery for retinal detachment in Decembr 2006. For a month after the surgery, I suffered the worst pain I ever had in my life; worse than a kidney stone. It's my new "10". I was crying, screaming, shaking, sweating, freezing, and I pissed myself a couple times. Percocet couldn't touch it. I basically had to put myself out with wine and the pain meds when it got unbearable. I agree, nothing like that.

I hear ya about the insurance companies, too. I don't have that, now. I have to stretch my prescription (oxycontin) for 30 days; the pain clinic will not refill early.  Random pee tests, too. Just got tripped up by a poppy-seed cake. Morphine showed up. I told him if there was any of the sample left to test for papaverine, he'd see I was telling the truth.



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"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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RE: Chronic Pain, or fuck the Doctors - 2/20/2009 7:02:20 PM   
kiyari


Posts: 631
Status: offline 		I know, pet, and there is the shame.
They are, in no small part, 'hard to find' because such as they are,
are NOT a welcome sort in the all-for-profit world of today.

(W)Holistics may be easier to find, but they are (all too often) 'fringe' sorts, and so may be of little help.

I am in your same boat, financially. So very many are, and more everyday.

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RE: Chronic Pain, or fuck the Doctors - 2/20/2009 7:07:44 PM   
kiyari


Posts: 631
Status: offline 		Insurance companies have never been in favor of 'preventative' medicine.

Chiropractors, for example (although they CAN be seriously harmful, for 'neck adjustments').

Dennis Kucinich (ya, that silly vegan nutcase) had a proposal for reforming our healthcare situation.

His proposal was: to eliminate the middle-man (eliminate the INSURANCE INDUSTRY) from the equation.

Edited to Add:

I have NEVER used insurance for any of my healthcare.

Now, before anyone reacts as though I am saying this in any 'higher than thou' sense,
I would assure you that such is NOT my point.

For one, I have been blessed with fairly good health.
For two, I rarely visit doctors even when ill.

Now, that being said, here IS my point:

SINCE I do pay cash when I do seek health care,
it has occasionally resulted in my costs being discounted by as much as HALF.

Now, that STILL would likely be WAAAY more that any insured's co-pay,
but I tell this by way of showing how very severe is the overhead of INSURANCE.

< Message edited by kiyari -- 2/20/2009 7:14:44 PM >

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RE: Chronic Pain, or fuck the Doctors - 2/20/2009 7:18:24 PM   
dreamerdreaming


Posts: 2839
Status: offline 		*adores Hippiekinkster*

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RE: Chronic Pain, or fuck the Doctors - 2/20/2009 7:21:17 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		I have changed my diet that wasn't so bad to start with.  I have spent all sorts of money on treatment's and herbs and all sorts of doctor's.  Fibromyalgia runs in my family... there isn't much explaination for so many having it other than a genetic one.  I don't find it strange since Fibro is a brain disorder and we seem to have many of them in my family.  Lot's of ADD... learning disabilities and the cadasil/strokes/bleeds.  I am sure one thing feeds another or complicates it.

I was ill as an infant, crying in pain they could not explain.  I remember being in pain all my life and I didn't take medication until I had to.  I hated medication becasue of when I was a teen and had to take so much, so I wouldn't take anything after that.  I would ignore the pain, found ways to get through it and just stuck it out until I could not stick it out anymore and it was limiting my life.  Of course five herniations on my back and a surgry didn't help.

I finally decided... I hate medication, but I hate living like this more.  I will take whatever it takes to bring some comfort from the many symptoms and will continue with life and actually living it.  When nothing else works... and you know you have a strong mind and handle a lot... it is time to medicate.  I still use all the tricks to feeling better... but diet and all that did nothing for me.

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RE: Chronic Pain, or fuck the Doctors - 2/20/2009 7:31:39 PM   
kiyari


Posts: 631
Status: offline 		Lockit:

Perhaps a teaching hospital may take an interest in your situation?

Have you ever seen a 'naturopath'?

Yes, finances, alas, limit us lowly worker-unit sorts.

My dear brother was able, under Medicaid, to have a life-threatening condition tended to by a teaching hospital.

The doctor said to him: "If you want this operation
(in your case, Lockit, perhaps it would be 'therapy')
then I will fill out the Medicaid paperwork such that it shall be approved."

Teaching Hospital.

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RE: Chronic Pain, or fuck the Doctors - 2/20/2009 7:40:11 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		I have been to a number of them.  Teaching hospitals and have gone the naturopath. No one knew what to do because nothing made sense.

I can't be in any studies because I have so many other illness's other than the one they are studying.  I had a couple doctors try to help in this but the other illness's always blew it.  We know what is wrong... we narrowed down the right treatments for me, but... new doc's rarely listen to that and want to prove whatever it is they think is right after seeing me one time.  Brillance at it's finest.

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RE: Chronic Pain, or fuck the Doctors - 2/20/2009 10:25:39 PM   
TheHeretic


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Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		      But, but, but, opiates are baa-aaad, Hippie.  The gov't has to protect us from baa-aaad things.  They know what is best for you.  What are you?  Some kind of right wing nutjob?   


      I don't like the effects on people who have heavy pain management treatments.  Denying it where it is needed, regardless, is criminal.

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RE: Chronic Pain, or fuck the Doctors - 2/20/2009 10:54:23 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

   But, but, but, opiates are baa-aaad, Hippie.  The gov't has to protect us from baa-aaad things.  They know what is best for you.  What are you?  Some kind of right wing nutjob?   


   I don't like the effects on people who have heavy pain management treatments.  Denying it where it is needed, regardless, is criminal.
I understand your trepidation about high-dose opioids. Yes, they can occasionally make people lethargic, detached, inattentive to their social milieu. But the alternative is to force them to suffer. That's simply inhumane. And sometimes what seems like withdrawal from others is simply trying to keep from stirring up the pain. It's a bitch to stand for 15 minutes sometimes at a party listening to whatever, all the while I'm (note first person) wanting to sit down and trying to figure out a way to keep the conversation going with someone who has no clue.

I'm guessing you have no idea what hurting 24/7 is like. It wears you down. Pain kills. It shortens lives. The stress hormones fuck up the whole body, and even rot teeth.

It's one thing to bear a broken arm until one gets it set. It's entirely another to spend one's life with the equivalent of a broken arm EVERY DAY for 10 years.



You should read up on how certain molecules came to be criminalized in the US. Racism was the impetus with both MJ and opiates.

< Message edited by Hippiekinkster -- 2/20/2009 11:45:48 PM >

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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RE: Chronic Pain, or fuck the Doctors - 2/20/2009 11:31:03 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

I have been to a number of them.  Teaching hospitals and have gone the naturopath. No one knew what to do because nothing made sense.
Therefore, it must not be real. bastards. There's a book written by a pain specialist, "The Myth of Psychogenic Pain" wherein he shows what an amazingly stupid idea "imaginary pain" is.

quote:

We know what is wrong... we narrowed down the right treatments for me, but... new doc's rarely listen to that and want to prove whatever it is they think is right after seeing me one time.  Brillance at it's finest.
really. The fucks are SOOOO smart...  we have to keep proving that our pain is real. A portfolio of MRI pics helps. Then the bastards give you, what, three minutes now? And bill for 40 or 45? I've had that happen twice. Out-and-out fraud.

Tell me, Lockit, or anyone: have you ever had a doctor who would ask you how your pain impacted your life? How medication helped? All we are are bodies attached to credit cards and checkbooks.
  I remember after I had the three epidurals, the PA was INSISTENT on me giving a percentage in pain reduction. There's no fucking way to quantify such a thing; this isn't science, it's horseshit, pure and simple.

Just of the top of my head, here's an example of how ridiculous such attempts to quantify the ineffable are.
"On a scale of one to ten, how sweet is this snack?"

I'm not saying the pain scale is meaningless. I'm saying it's meanigless when trying to use a number with more than one person.

But trying to quantify pain reduction, how can that be done?

And, of course, the quacks will publish a learned article in a learned HEAVY MEDICAL JOURNAL saying they achieved a 30% reduction in pain. Assholes.  They did no such thing. Ever meet a doctor who knew fuck-all about statistics? Neither have I.

Okey doke. It's wine-thirty. 

< Message edited by Hippiekinkster -- 2/20/2009 11:44:15 PM >

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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RE: Chronic Pain, or fuck the Doctors - 2/21/2009 4:33:08 AM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
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I don't understand....how would fucking my Doctor make my pain go away?

Is it an endorphin thing or something?

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RE: Chronic Pain, or fuck the Doctors - 2/21/2009 6:18:14 AM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		LOL Lookie!!!! 

I will just go on and say it.  Sex and especially sex involving the right mix of kinky activities does more to help my pain than does ANY medication I have been given by a doctor.  I would rather the owies of sitting on a sore bottom after a good session over the desire to rip whole body parts off a the slightest touch any day!  I realize there is a perfectly logical explanation for this, but I don't care!  Just bring on the spankings!

On a more serious note, I have made many major attempts at convincing doctors that I am actually sick and in need of help.  I got fed up with the two major dismissal statements I got and made darn sure no one could use them anymore.  One was that I was fat and I would feel so much better if I weighed less.  I eat a most balanced diet and have for some time and am now forcing the exercise even when it is excruciating.  I had been doing a more gentle approach, but I am pretty amped up and frustrated, so all bets are off.  The other is that I must be depressed, crazy, etc.  Fine, I have been working with a therapist for the past 6 months.  We usually talk about a bunch of nothing to fill the hour, but I am no more nuts than anyone else and I have the records to prove it.  There's not much more I can do. 

I agree.  Most things are only going to take the chronic pain sufferer so far.  There is no treatment that is going to manage the condition permanently.  Something will change and put it all in chaos again.  I will disagree that there is no cure for most of this stuff.  Discovering a cure is expensive and doesn't really yeild a profit over the short or long term.  It is strictly something that would have to be humanitarian in motive and would then be suppressed anyway.  EVERYTHING is curable, just not all cures have been discovered and some are  far more complicated than others.  Call me an optimist, but I believe this.  It also doesn't mean we haven't already destroyed the cure for something in blind negligence (destruction of species and habitats).

Okay, I'll shut up now!  I had no idea I had become such a rebel!

lovingpet 


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RE: Chronic Pain, or fuck the Doctors - 2/21/2009 6:49:02 AM   
sirsholly


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From: Quietville
Status: offline 		i see this as a "quality of life" issue as well as the choice of the patient. Do you live with constant pain and the effects of that pain: depression, loss of motor function, loss of muscle tone, job loss, etc.etc.etc. Or, if there is a medication available that will help, narcotic or not, do you take it, possibly long term?

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RE: Chronic Pain, or fuck the Doctors - 2/21/2009 6:52:08 AM   
lovingpet


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Status: offline 		Yes, I would agree.  Medication is one of the few ways we have of having something that resembles as normal life.  Still, that is to be a bandaid in the hope of something better down the road.  That should not be an end in itself.

lovingpet

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RE: Chronic Pain, or fuck the Doctors - 2/21/2009 8:12:14 AM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		I was on oxycodone 5 mg three times a day.  When more was needed for rough days... and sometimes I went months without them... a muscle relaxer two times a day.  For seven years.  I did not lie, cheat and steal.  I did not advance to a higher dose or doctor shop or shop on the street.  My personality did not change.  But I no longer had to rest as much and could actually do things.

When I did not have the medications and was still trying to work, after work I would simply die.  I was a great worker, but inconsistant because I was always ill and missing work.  And I don't just miss a day because I am uncomfortable!  We are talking... nausia like a chemo patient, not able to move a leg or be able to walk kind of problems.  My employer's loved me and my work, I just couldn't be there as often as they liked. lol  I tried one job after another after a certain point.  Couldn't hold a job becasue of it and created my own business so I could work when well.  911 took that out and most in my business in the area lost their ass's, it wasn't just me.

So to save money, I do my own bathroom remodel.  That was the end of my back.  I could no longer do the dance I did to keep my back in shape and keep my spirit well.  I could no longer even take care of myself all the time.  When I could no longer walk, we did the surgry.

I advocated for the chronically ill for years, wrote to senator's, congressmen, the president, Hollywood... talk shows... anyone I thought could help those with strange or rare illness's or veterans.  I addressed the ugly sides of things... addictions verses dependency, what happens in life, social security/welfare and how people were surviving and what was happening to funding for research.  There was a great deal of money set aside for fibromyalgia research that got funneled to MS.  Ross Peroe funded research for Gulf War disease that found that Gulf War disease could be seen in the brain with an FMRI, they also found that fibromyalgia could be seen with it too.  That research got buried.  You can hardly find it when you google it now.

With medication I am still limited, but I can function and could take part in society and be of some use to family and other's.  Without it... I might go out once a month.  I mean to a store or doctor appointment.  I cannot cook and clean like normal and I am a clean freak and loved to cook, cooking three full days a week.. all day long.  Now the foods I eat are quick and I rarely eat because of the symptoms.

I have tried all the medications... and came to realize the bad reactions and what they do and refused to take new medications.  Some of my friends took the medications... some got worse and some died.  Then they took some off the market.  My sister and mother took the medications and mom is dead and sister might as well be for all she has left and she is two years younger than I am and I got the symptoms of cadasil before they did and had fibro where they didn't.

With good medical treatment I could live a relativily normal life span.  Without it... well, good luck with that.  With medication I could be the woman, parent and grandmother as well as social citizen who helped in society rather than was only a throw away.  Even my brother called me nothing but a drain on society and felt I should end it.  I do not live on state funds except for clinic's for the poor that don't do much but see me.  The test were done.  Now they will have to be done again if I wish to have any help.  I sit here trying to get through each day without being productive like I always was.  I have given up on a love or partner, being able to do the social work I have always done and the advocating and supporting other's.  We talked at least one person a week out of suiside.  Now... I can't talk them out of it... I understand too well what they are escaping.  I will try, but if they are suffering and I do mean suffering... I tell them to do what they must do because there is no way else for some.  Lately I stay becasue I know there is help for me still... but if not... and I can't stop this and must live like this... one day I know... I won't be able to stand it and might not be able to face another moment of it.  Those are just the fact's.  But for today... and my attitude is strong... just realistic... one day it won't be enough.  But that is okay... I am just a throw away to many.  As I am without a narcotic... I am worthless to most.

I am not in danger... nor am I needing support.  These are just the facts and I am not the only one living them.  I am happy in myself and okay with my life... but it sure would be a hell of a lot better with decent medical care and medication for my pain.  The longer I live, the less money the tax payer has to pay to care for my son and he gets better care at home... so I have a lot to live for... I just have to keep it that way.

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RE: Chronic Pain, or fuck the Doctors - 2/21/2009 8:46:24 AM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
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Status: offline 		Shame on your brother for saying such things Lockit!

Your value doesn't lie in what you can do, but in who you are!

*soft fibro hugs*

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RE: Chronic Pain, or fuck the Doctors - 2/21/2009 9:33:35 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
You should read up on how certain molecules came to be criminalized in the US. Racism was the impetus with both MJ and opiates.



      I'm familiar with the subject, Hippie.  We probably have a lot of common ground in our views on it.

      I'm also familiar with people who are stoned all the time, whether they just like it (or liked it when they started), or the alternative is agony.  I don't think that is a good enough reason to deny people the medication they need, even when they become really, REALLY annoying.

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RE: Chronic Pain, or fuck the Doctors - 2/21/2009 9:48:49 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		I think it started(the negative shit) when politics was injected into medical matters and when substance use was criminalized.

Addiction is a medical matter and substance use, is a social one.The law should be part of it.

Some of my 1st political feelings were formed when I heard republicans mis-handle and politicizing HIV/AIDS,exacerbating and prolonging the damage and numbers of it`s victims.

I remember cons suggesting everything from, we shouldn`t treat AIDS victims because they got sick by "choosing" to  be gay,to,this was God`s wrath, punishing gays for their sinful lifestyle.The fundies would cutely use the word,"deathstyle",in place of "lifestyle" in their rhetoric.

My hope is that the snake oil/faith healer/anti-science types are purged from our government and a more liberal,sensible approach is taken to things medical.

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