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RE: Bondage and D/s why the overlap? - 2/22/2009 11:28:36 AM

antipode

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quote:

there seems to be a huge overlap

Is it relevant, somehow, to approach this philosophically? There is overlap wherever you look - between vegetarians and meat eaters, between Christians and Muslims, between men and women... so why not here? There isn't a rulebook, you make it up, as we all do, as you go along. Unless, of course, you have a need for a rulebook, then there is Gor, and I am sure other stuff.

I would say: "don't worry about it". Worry about what you want, and how to get there.

(in reply to Leathersandals)

Post #: 21

RE: Bondage and D/s why the overlap? - 2/22/2009 12:45:11 PM

DesFIP

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I'm curious as to why people assume bondage automatically has an overlap with s & m. Because there are lots of people like us out there, who aren't into pain but are into rope.

As far as why the correlation between physical control and mental control for me? I'm into being controlled. I like having him decide where we are going and what we are doing. And I find sex, which is a vital part of our relationship, is hotter when physical control (rope) is added. I love the feel of rope, I love straining against it knowing I can't get out, I just get turned on be him doing things to me without me needing to think about him at the same time.

I think sex is better when one person can just lie back and feel and then the other person can just enjoy without thinking about the partner. I find the feelings are stronger when they are undivided.

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RE: Bondage and D/s why the overlap? - 2/22/2009 2:11:29 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lateralist1

Yes you can have a D/s relationship without anything to do with BDSM.

How? Given that D/s is a component of BDSM? The acronym is derived from the words Bondage Discipline Dominance Submission Sadism Masochism. It's like saying you can have beef stew without beef.

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RE: Bondage and D/s why the overlap? - 2/22/2009 2:17:04 PM

feydeplume

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the d/s part got added A LOT latter than you think. It is now, to some part of the BDSM thing, but many do not agree because it is an emotional state rather than a physical activity like Bondage, Discipline, Sadism and Masochism.

In fact there is still a huge debate over if it is covered under the umbrella or not.

just saying

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RE: Bondage and D/s why the overlap? - 2/22/2009 2:25:03 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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I remember when the term was first coined on Usenet in the early 90s. From the first time I encountered it, it was clearly understood by everyone who used it that it encompassed the term "dominance and submission." At the very latest, I'm talking around 1995. I've never known it not to include that term, and in fact never heard anyone argue that it didn't until this past year or so here on Collarme, about 15 years after I first heard it defined. I really don't know where the idea comes from that it's a recent construct, or for that matter why people want to make it so.

Edited to add: And as far as dominance and submission being emotional states rather than physical acts, you can just as easily say the same about sadism and masochism. Both are states of mind that sometimes are manifested in overt actions. And by the same token, dominance and submission are often expressed as physical actions. I see the distinctions that people are talking about, but to my mind they're distinctions without differences.

< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 2/22/2009 2:48:36 PM >

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RE: Bondage and D/s why the overlap? - 2/22/2009 2:27:06 PM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leathersandals

Hello all,

I was wondering the other day why there seems to be a huge overlap in bondage (restraints/whips) and the idea of domination and submission.

I understand there is a historical element that has to do with slavery or maybe the idea of keeping a pet, but I don't think this is necessarily true for everyone.

I personally enjoy the D/s side of it (you telling someone what to do, and them doing it -yes that was oversimplified) more than I do the restraints and punishment side. But I have spoken to people who only really like one or the other, which is what got me wondering why is there an overlap? You can dominate someone without putting them in handcuffs, and you can tie someone up without dominating them so why are they so closely associated?

I don't think there is a "right" answer to this but I would just like hear everyone's opinion as to what i means to them, and why it may or may not overlap.

Because, by sheer logic alone all forms of bondage are a form of domination yet not all forms of domination are types of bondage?

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Post #: 26

RE: Bondage and D/s why the overlap? - 2/22/2009 2:50:33 PM

vield

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BDSM is simply an acronym combining three relatively well known forms of kink, B&D, D&S and S&M. The three part wheel we see on line (including here) is a symbol for these three parts.

Of course the definition of what these initials mean to you is something only you can describe.

Many people enjoy elements of all three parts of BDSM. Many people just like specific aspects of these or other kinks.

Some people include other sorts of kink into their lives without wanting any level of bondage and discipline, domination and submission, or sadism and masochism to happen.

Open minds can find many wonderful ideas to try.

I have found it important to thoroughly discuss what any label means to the person wearing it before moving to anything deeper than casual conversation. There are way too many views of these things from different people of all persuasions and diversities!

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Post #: 27

RE: Bondage and D/s why the overlap? - 2/22/2009 3:10:12 PM

feydeplume

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I remember some heated debates about the bondage crowd getting to play in the same space as the SM crowd. Now this was in person and these people felt rather strongly that the sensory issues of bondage did not play well with the screams of the SM crowd and that the the SMers thought the Bondage crowd was sort of creepy because they were so quite and wanted darker lighting.

the OTK crowd was shunned by both sets, as the SM crowd wanted to celebrate the pain and not role play around it (their perception of the OTK/Discipline crowd) and the bondage crowd thought they were fakers on both sides of the line drawn between the bondage crowd and the sm crowd. And nobody wanted to talk to the fetishists or the cross dressers.

Now add into that the whole sexual orientation stuff and it yeah people who did the marches in the streets in the big cities had strong feelings.

I personally still don't know what to call which and when to do so. If you go back over my posts I tend to add swap terms from WIITWD (or TIISWWD) to kink to BDSM to lifestyle to play. I just don't feel comfortable telling other people how to express their sexuality, but i do strongly believe that the fight for sexual freedom is important, so if that means bringing alot of people that only really have the status of not vanilla together to protect us all and push forward legislation against hate crimes then I will do it.

I don't care if you confine someone with handcuffs, beat them with the hand cuffs or shove the cuffs up their ass. I just care how I like to use cuffs and how the person or people i am interacting with like to use them.

So you and i Panda are clear with where we are coming to this place about semantics from, I come from a, well these days its called gender queer pansexual background in SM. I didn't learn about BDSM on the net at all. I only used the net in terms of SEX for political rallies, where the meet and beat was going to be that week, who was giving what class where, and to post stuff on BBSs about this and that. it was years before i ran into the online BDSM presence and it was culture shock for me. (perhaps it still is).

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RE: Bondage and D/s why the overlap? - 2/22/2009 3:24:26 PM

rachel529

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

Hmm, a lot of people do find BDSM to be a good way to express their D/s connection, but it could just be that a lot of people are drawn to both.

There is a high correlation between an interest in computers, Science Fiction conventions, Renaissance Faires, polyamory, BDSM, D/s, being Pagan, and Gothic/Industrial clubbing. Not everyone who is into one of those things are into all of them, but most events of any one of those sorts *tends* to have a high number of people who are into at least one of the other interests.

ive noticed this also. maybe there is overlap from similar interests? from the incessant search for media which everyone finds erotic? i find it disturbing that some dont buy into the live and let live thing, we are all fetishists of some sort right?

(in reply to Andalusite)

Post #: 29

RE: Bondage and D/s why the overlap? - 2/22/2009 9:02:11 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: feydeplume

So you and i Panda are clear with where we are coming to this place about semantics from, I come from a, well these days its called gender queer pansexual background in SM. I didn't learn about BDSM on the net at all. I only used the net in terms of SEX for political rallies, where the meet and beat was going to be that week, who was giving what class where, and to post stuff on BBSs about this and that. it was years before i ran into the online BDSM presence and it was culture shock for me. (perhaps it still is).

Interesting. Very interesting. And hey, for what it's worth, the online BDSM universe is still something of a culture shock for me every day, and I've been heavily invested in it for 15 years. So don't feel badly! But it's interesting to me to see how the two of us followed such very different paths to get here, and fascinating that we had such very different experiences along our respective paths. My own background could hardly have been more different; my first D/s relationship was my marriage, which began in 1981. Back then, there was no "scene" for most straight people in the Midwest. There were magazine stores, and that was pretty much where I had to get all my information on whatever it was that burned so hot in the depths of my soul. Most of it was useless, because it was just pornographic crap. Nothing of any real value for someone trying to learn how to construct and maintain a healthy, functional, loving D/s relationship, so I pretty much had to learn it on my own. Burned up 2 or 3 pretty damned good relationships with 2 or 3 pretty damned good women while I figured it out, and in all honesty would probably have continued burning up relationships (albeit perhaps at a somewhat diminishing pace) had I not started tapping into a community of peers via the internet in the early 90s.

I don't think I learned so much about BDSM itself through the internet, but I sure learned a hell of a lot about how to sustain BDSM relationships through this resource. The internet was literally priceless for me; I don't think I could find the words to describe the happiness and the joy I've been privileged to experience in my life because the internet helped me learn how others had solved the problems of building and nurturing a healthy BDSM relationship. I don't even want to think about how bleak and how colorless my life would be had I not experienced the relationships that were made possible by the help I found on the net. Sorry for the topic drift, but this was one of those moments in a conversation where I suddenly realized i was learning something very different than what I thought I was going to learn from it. Thanks for the insight.

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Post #: 30

RE: Bondage and D/s why the overlap? - 2/22/2009 9:50:03 PM

Kana

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For me its all about D/S
I see everything as stemming from that trunk
I want to be in her head
I want to be in her heart
I want to own her, body and soul
I want her to be mine

but hey, that's just me

(in reply to subbisherri)

Post #: 31

RE: Bondage and D/s why the overlap? - 2/23/2009 7:32:48 AM

feydeplume

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So for you and your experiences it is B DS M really and that is rad and wonderful. And for all that we get tons of confused and overwhelmed new people everyday that have started on the web before really dating vanilla or getting to know their own sexuality, it is still a life saver (in sooo many ways) for those new people. They NEVER have the idea that they are the only one, that they are some kind of horrible freak (once they start reading) and the web provdes possibly 100's of hours of therpy for these people.

And yet, the first thing most of them are told is "join a live group and get to meet real people face to face".

That is, to me, one of the most facinating aspects of it all.

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Post #: 32

RE: Bondage and D/s why the overlap? - 2/23/2009 10:36:10 AM

Morniel

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Possibly because, originally, "BDSM" and anything remotely outside the "average" lifestyle was once considered, according to the DMSR-II and DMSR-III to be aberrant behaviour and was considered "mental illness".

In fact, it's quite possible to have a D/s relationship with no kinky sex at all. Most marriages up until the 1960s were in fact D/s marriages, until society decided it was somehow "wrong" for someone to enjoy making a home, relying on someone else's judgement, and being in a non-leadership position.

(in reply to subbisherri)

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RE: Bondage and D/s why the overlap? - 2/23/2009 11:37:40 AM

Jeptha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: feydeplume

the d/s part got added A LOT latter than you think. It is now, to some part of the BDSM thing, but many do not agree because it is an emotional state rather than a physical activity like Bondage, Discipline, Sadism and Masochism.

In fact there is still a huge debate over if it is covered under the umbrella or not.

just saying

I would have to fall on That Damned Panda's side of the equasion here.
I do believe I've heard the D/s included in the catch-all "bdsm" rubric before, even in the mists of the fairly long ago ... although it certainly is useful to make a distinction for people who are just beginning to explore stuff.

< Message edited by Jeptha -- 2/23/2009 11:48:17 AM >

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Post #: 34

RE: Bondage and D/s why the overlap? - 2/23/2009 12:53:26 PM

feydeplume

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As i said somewhere... unless that post too got pulled (don't ask) I am still unsure which term to use to cover a huge, amazingly diverse crowd that fundamentally doesn't have a common denominator other than choosing not to be called vanilla by people that use it as a derogatory term. I mean try and picture us, the various groups as some sort of Venn diagram. No really get out the pens and crayons and have at it.

once you have something that looks like someone went wild with their new box of crayons, hit the net to see which groups you left out.

Actually, if you do this with a group of people at a gathering, it can be a ton of fun. print out a list of activities, group them into the major categories of BDSM, then start sub-categorizing (giggle), add in fetishes and kinks that are one-offs, then start trying to work out the overlaps and circles inside circles with arrows to other circles.

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Pretend I said something witty and laugh.

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Post #: 35

RE: Bondage and D/s why the overlap? - 2/23/2009 2:28:51 PM

Andalusite

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rachel, exactly! Some people are very dogmatic about D/s particularly, and to a much lesser extent, BDSM in general. I don't have any problem with people being picky about the dynamic they want for their own relationship/s, but it bugs me when people go off about people doing it wrong, or try to convince other people to comply with their views. A lot of submissives are so afraid of being viewed as "topping from the bottom" that they can't honestly communicate what they want and like.

Prinsexx, I disagree. I've been tied up before, or tied someone else up, without any D/s power exchange whatsoever. Same goes for thwacking/getting thwacked, kneeling, getting coffee, etc. D/s is about emotions/state of mind, though it can be expressed in physical ways, to me. There's nothing wrong with someone feeling a strong D/s response to bondage, but it's by no means universal.

(in reply to feydeplume)

Post #: 36

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