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RE: My fellow citizens scare me... - 2/24/2009 10:41:23 AM   
hardbodysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

The truth is, everyone dies. A supporting truth to that one is that, Christians believe they have an afterlife and a place in it. A third truth in that line of reasoning is that you can't state they don't.

The final truth is that no matter how smart you are, all three above apply.


Incomplete, and misleading. You're mixing facts and "beliefs".

And not entirely true. You CAN state that they don't have an afterlife. Your statement could not be supported by fact, but neither is their belief. The "supporting truth" you mention is simply that Christians believe something. Big deal. That belief doesn't "support" anything. Believing something doesn't make it true.

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RE: My fellow citizens scare me... - 2/24/2009 12:29:29 PM   
aravain


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Status: offline 		I know that this is exactly what DomKen said, but maybe another person saying it will make it resonate? I dunno.

There is (currently) only one SCIENTIFIC theory of the origins of the universe.

There ARE other hypotheses (NOT theories) but a majority (all, if my research and professors is completely current) have been *completely discredited*.

There is a VERY distinct difference between a theory, and a SCIENTIFIC theory, which is what he was saying.

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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: My fellow citizens scare me... - 2/24/2009 12:35:32 PM   
Gwynvyd


Posts: 4949
Status: offline 		One of the things I hate the most are people who do not profess to have a religion, ( athiests and the like) who think those who do have faith in something, anything are all idiots.

Having faith~ what ever that may be... is not a sign of ignorance... nor lower IQ. Mine is 174 thank you very much.

We are not idiots, we are not "blinded" we are not any of the moronic things people lacking faith ascribe to us.

We simply put faith in something larger then ourselves. Nothing wrong or stupid in that.

The first sailors put faith that they would not slip off the edge of the Earth.. no matter how many told them they would.

We put faith in science. We put faith in ourselves when we get into a vehicle to drive it.

Faith comes in many variety's.

What also dusts my dollies are the jack asses that hide behind their faiths and use it to blundgen the rest of us who do not ascribe to that faith.

~ Again your inteligent design type folks. Evolution happened... we have proof.. move a long. Maybe it was Gods way of getting things going? Who are you to say it wasnt when we have proof of fosils and the like.

So please do not color all people of faith with the same sloppy brush.

Gwyn 

< Message edited by Gwynvyd -- 2/24/2009 12:36:54 PM >

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RE: My fellow citizens scare me... - 2/24/2009 1:48:26 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

None of your responses to any of my posts ever answered my original question nor did you answer any of the subsequent rephrasings. You kept trying to change the subject to philosophy of science which you clearly don't understand.

So once more you claim it is irrational to disbelieve in any gods existence. I want to know which required behaviors you skimp on, the fact is that simply required activities of a few hundred of the thousands of known faiths takes more than 24 hours a day, or which deities you don't believe exist and why your disbelief in those deities is somehow superior to my disbelief in all deities.


OK here we go then... First where did I say it was irrational to disbelieve in the existence of God...I said " Gods existence is and should be a possibility by any thinking person" not the same as the words you tried to put in my mouth.

Here is the answer I gave to your question..."As you believe in the big bang...which I don't necessarily disagree with...after all it is a possibility...I believe in a source and a soul. My source is no less viable to believe than yours. You don't have to believe in all theories of the beginning and neither do I. " Perhaps I should translate and make clear...Just as you believe in the Big bang with no other possibility I believe in a source and soul and choose not to believe any other.  That is as clear as I can get.

There are other theories to the formation of the universe…you choose not to believe them.

There are other religions and I choose not to believe them.

Perhaps we are both wrong…but think about it… I’m the only one that has a possible chance of knowing for sure.

If there is only oblivion after death neither of us will know.

If there is a God and heaven I will know but you will not.

Butch

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: My fellow citizens scare me... - 2/24/2009 1:51:01 PM   
LaTigresse


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It's some of the posts on thread like this, in Off Topic, that lead me to believe that evolution is actually moving backwards.

Scary shit that.


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RE: My fellow citizens scare me... - 2/24/2009 1:55:23 PM   
calamitysandra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
...
There are other theories to the formation of the universe…
...


What they are trying to explain to you, for some while now, is that there might very well be other theories about the formation of the universe.
But there is just one scientific theory.
Those two things are not the same.


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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: My fellow citizens scare me... - 2/24/2009 2:01:04 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		That’s why I am leery of posting in threads like this...above all else I am against fanaticism and I don’t want to seem like I am one.

I don’t want to convert you or preach to you…I don’t want to govern you by my beliefs nor do I want to convince you of my beliefs.

I am not defending the actions of men in Gods name.

But I think it just as fanatical to deny the possibility of God and hold up science as a proof that a source or soul can absolutely not exist.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 2/24/2009 2:11:35 PM >

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RE: My fellow citizens scare me... - 2/24/2009 2:10:59 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
...
There are other theories to the formation of the universe…
...


What they are trying to explain to you, for some while now, is that there might very well be other theories about the formation of the universe.
But there is just one scientific theory.
Those two things are not the same.



There is a big bang theory

There is a Steady state theory

There is the Membrane theory
 
There are many theories. I'm not claiming one is true or not or favored or not... Any one is a possibility and even if and when proven may not exclude  the validity of religion. 

Butch

(in reply to calamitysandra)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: My fellow citizens scare me... - 2/24/2009 2:11:31 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou


It's funny but I hear liberals attack Christian fundamentalists for clinging to superstition, but I never hear them do the same with self-described neo-pagans, wiccans, buddhists, etc.  Apparently for liberals, the "cool" religions get a free pass when it comes to superstition. 


Really, so the attacks on scientology on snl and every other comedic outlet have just gone by unnoticed. I have seen great fun poked at Islam and other crazed fundies.

Some people need this shit. They feel that dying and rotting is not an option.

the problem with Christianity is not the teachings or the belief in Jesus Christ. It is that far too many who practice Christianity and worship Jesus Christ utilize it as a tool to gather to condemn, harass and kill those with opposing views and lifestyles. Which is in total contrast and defiance to the teachings of the man himself.

Perhaps they should stop practicing and shoot more for perfecting it.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 2/24/2009 2:14:22 PM >

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RE: My fellow citizens scare me... - 2/24/2009 2:19:47 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
...
There are other theories to the formation of the universe…
...


What they are trying to explain to you, for some while now, is that there might very well be other theories about the formation of the universe.
But there is just one scientific theory.
Those two things are not the same.



There is a big bang theory

There is a Steady state theory

There is the Membrane theory

There are many theories. I'm not claiming one is true or not or favored or not... Any one is a possibility and even if and when proven may not exclude  the validity of religion. 

Butch

Steady state is disproven.

Membrane theory isn't so much a competing theory for the origin of the universe but a theory for the existence of other universes. However no evidence exists for such and no possible way of acquiring positive or negative evidence for the idea has ever been put forward.

Big Bang is the single scientific theory of the origin of the unvierse.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: My fellow citizens scare me... - 2/24/2009 2:29:25 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
...
There are other theories to the formation of the universe…
...


What they are trying to explain to you, for some while now, is that there might very well be other theories about the formation of the universe.
But there is just one scientific theory.
Those two things are not the same.



There is a big bang theory

There is a Steady state theory

There is the Membrane theory

There are many theories. I'm not claiming one is true or not or favored or not... Any one is a possibility and even if and when proven may not exclude  the validity of religion. 

Butch

Steady state is disproven.

Membrane theory isn't so much a competing theory for the origin of the universe but a theory for the existence of other universes. However no evidence exists for such and no possible way of acquiring positive or negative evidence for the idea has ever been put forward.

Big Bang is the single scientific theory of the origin of the unvierse.


Membrane theory does provide for the repeated creation of the universe...in a different way than the big bang. And yes the Big bang is the preferred theory today...but also has its critics and non-believers... and may change tomorrow.

I would not bet my mortal or spiritual life on the absolute validity of the big bang...there are still too many unanswered questions...If it were an absolute it would not be a theory.

I am not against science in any way...I figure the truth is the truth but I doubt we will ever last long enough to know that absolute truth if that is even possible.

Butch



< Message edited by kdsub -- 2/24/2009 2:30:23 PM >

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RE: My fellow citizens scare me... - 2/24/2009 2:39:27 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Steady state is disproven.

Membrane theory isn't so much a competing theory for the origin of the universe but a theory for the existence of other universes. However no evidence exists for such and no possible way of acquiring positive or negative evidence for the idea has ever been put forward.

Big Bang is the single scientific theory of the origin of the unvierse.


Membrane theory does provide for the repeated creation of the universe...in a different way than the big bang. And yes the Big bang is the preferred theory today...but also has its critics and non-believers... and may change tomorrow.

I would not bet my mortal or spiritual life on the absolute validity of the big bang...there are still too many unanswered questions...If it were an absolute it would not be a theory.

I am not against science in any way...I figure the truth is the truth but I doubt we will ever last long enough to know that absolute truth if that is even possible.

Big Bang theory does not make any statement about what may have come before, or if anything came before, and Membrane theory does not contradict the observed facts that the universe was once very small and very hot and has since gotten bigger. Membrane theory posits a possible explanation of where the mass/energy of the Big Bang singularity came from but that has no bearing at all on Big Bang theory as that theory only concerns itself with what happened when the universe began to expand.

And just to make it clear theory is the last stop in science. A theory is as nearly proven as science gets. There are no absolutes in science.

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RE: My fellow citizens scare me... - 2/24/2009 2:55:24 PM   
kdsub


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You see we have lost sight of what we were talking about.

Never in our conversation did I ever say this or that theory was right or wrong...I have only been trying to get you to agree that there are no absolutes. And without those absolutes science is based on beliefs...no more or less vaild then another belief...the possibility of the existance of God.

We can argue till the day we die but neither can absolutely say the Universe is as you envision it or as I envision it. My bet is we are both very far off the mark.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 2/24/2009 2:59:10 PM >

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RE: My fellow citizens scare me... - 2/24/2009 3:08:41 PM   
aravain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
There is a big bang theory

There is a Steady state theory

There is the Membrane theory

There are many theories. I'm not claiming one is true or not or favored or not... Any one is a possibility and even if and when proven may not exclude  the validity of religion. 

Butch


Those are *all* theories ONLY in the literary sense of the word.

The only one that is a *SCIENTIFIC* theory is 'The Big Bang Theory.'

They are two different beasts entirely. If a hypothesis that is created gains backing by scientific fact and experimentation (which actively debunks an existing scientific theory) and it is re-testable (and passes all the other requirements, such as validity), THEN it becomes a theory and the old theory is completely invalidated.

This requires a large amount of testing, retesting, and research... however, it does ensure that only one SCIENTIFIC theory exists on any subject at one time.

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RE: My fellow citizens scare me... - 2/24/2009 3:30:09 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
And without those absolutes science is based on beliefs

You're simply wrong.

Science is based on facts never on belief.

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RE: My fellow citizens scare me... - 2/24/2009 3:33:00 PM   
thishereboi


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Status: offline 		And they stand by those facts until someone proves them wrong.

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RE: My fellow citizens scare me... - 2/24/2009 3:40:01 PM   
aravain


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I think the difference is that science doesn't *care* if there's an afterlife. It makes no attempt to explain it because there is no way to prove or disprove it. Scientist can be exactly the same (and not CARE if there is an afterlife), which means that they don't actively believe in anything unprovable because they just ignore it.

Scientists may, of course, care or use science as the basis for beliefs they hold, but they're people. That belief in an afterlife (or lack thereof) is the scientist's belief. Science makes no claim either way.

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RE: My fellow citizens scare me... - 2/24/2009 3:44:07 PM   
thishereboi


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Status: offline 		Actually I was thinking more about the dinosaurs when I posted that.

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RE: My fellow citizens scare me... - 2/24/2009 4:00:06 PM   
MarsBonfire


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Status: offline 		The thing about Big Bang Theory is: we can see it. When we look further and further into space, we are also looking farther back into time. So far, the quest for "first light" seems to bearing fruit, and we are seeing the events that came immediately after "EVENT ONE."

So I think there's some pretty good evidence for BBT.

Now, what caused the Bang, that's where membrane theory comes in... and it's a pretty wild ass theory, to be sure. Mathmatically, it makes some sense, but then, you can prove black is white, and white is black... on paper.

Science is working on it... and so far, no Gods required. :)

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RE: My fellow citizens scare me... - 2/24/2009 4:20:46 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

I just finished the Dalai Lama's "The Universe in a Grain of Sand: The Convergence of Science and Spirituality" An amazing read. The Dalai Lama is personal friends with the world's leading Physicists. Buddhist philosphy dovetails uncannily with physics (and my own "spirituality" or Cosmology, whatever term you prefer).


The Dalai Lama is a fraud, and he has fooled all the limousine liberals into buying into his bullshit.  The Free Tibet crowd never looks back at the theocratic rule of the Lamas prior to Chinese rule.  Feudalism, chattel slavery, poverty, near universal illiteracy, and brutality was common and rife.  Fuck the Dalai Lama, he's as crooked as they come. 

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