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RE: Atlantis, is this it ? - 2/24/2009 6:38:07 AM   
MstrPBK


Posts: 573
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Status: offline 		Adding to the fuel here - pull out your ANCIENT GREEK here.

We need to think back to the fact that Ptolemy was the first who makes written reference to this place. While there is much speculation as to if this original writing was just that - creative writing. However from what I also understand about those writings he in turn supposedly had spoken to an Egyptian Priest about the information. From my view I would suspect that an ancient Egyptian Priest would be a pretty reliable source of information. The source of the information ends here and this seems to be where our story begins.

BUT an odd piece of archeological trivia seems to have been found along the way. (From what I have read) Traces of cocaine (yes the drug) have been associated with some bodies of several entombed Pharaohs. Now you say that can't be and how can that be? Cocaine is not found growing in ancient Egypt - and you would be right. The fact that (a few?) sarcophagi bodies had cocaine traces can only mean one thing. Ancient Egypt and ancient South America had trade routes for at least procuring cocaine for some Pharaohs. Now ... the story that Ptolemy recorded has some very specific measurements of the size of Atlantis. (I am not mathematician; nor do I play one in real life) From what I have heard IF the measurements are correctly translated into contemporary measurements (inferences suggest that it is a two step process) there are ONLY two places on earth which meet the criteria of those dimensions.

Rather than pointing to a globe and saying "place a" and "place b"; I will leave it to other members here to re-establish this information from other sources; and let you consider those references yourself.

Even IF these locations match the math - it is still very possible we are chasing what was intended only as a work of creative writing.

MstrPBK
St Paul, MN

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RE: Atlantis, is this it ? - 2/24/2009 8:13:53 AM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		Ptolomey lived in the late first century AD. Plato lived between about 424 BC and 348 BC. So Ptolomey definitely wasn't the first to mention Atlantis and probably didn't discuss it with an Egyptian priest, he was a greek living near Alexandria under roman rule when worship of the Egyptian pantheon had died out.  Ptolomey's description is the same one given by Plato and is patently impossible.

More than likely Plato reported an event that had occured a thousand years before his time, the eruption of Thera that may have virtually wiped out Minoan culture and certainly reshaped the island of Thera.

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RE: Atlantis, is this it ? - 2/24/2009 8:23:24 AM   
calamitysandra


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Status: offline 		Meanie! Popping all those beautiful balloons.


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RE: Atlantis, is this it ? - 2/24/2009 10:29:13 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

Meanie! Popping all those beautiful balloons.


There are lots of fascinating things in the real world to ponder. This charming criiter for instance:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/02/weird-eyed_fish.php

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RE: Atlantis, is this it ? - 2/24/2009 11:48:37 AM   
calamitysandra


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RE: Atlantis, is this it ? - 2/25/2009 1:12:07 AM   
MstrPBK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Ptolomey lived in the late first century AD. Plato lived between about 424 BC and 348 BC. So Ptolomey definitely wasn't the first to mention Atlantis and probably didn't discuss it with an Egyptian priest, he was a greek living near Alexandria under roman rule when worship of the Egyptian pantheon had died out.  Ptolomey's description is the same one given by Plato and is patently impossible.

More than likely Plato reported an event that had occured a thousand years before his time, the eruption of Thera that may have virtually wiped out Minoan culture and certainly reshaped the island of Thera.

quote:

Ptolomey lived in the late first century AD. Plato lived between about 424 BC and 348 BC. So Ptolomey definitely wasn't the first to mention Atlantis and probably didn't discuss it with an Egyptian priest, he was a greek living near Alexandria under roman rule when worship of the Egyptian pantheon had died out. Ptolomey's description is the same one given by Plato and is patently impossible.

More than likely Plato reported an event that had occured a thousand years before his time, the eruption of Thera that may have virtually wiped out Minoan culture and certainly reshaped the island of Thera.


Then I stand corrected (my apologies)
Would rather pop bubbles than having false information - even with my lapse of memory.


< Message edited by MstrPBK -- 2/25/2009 1:15:07 AM >

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RE: Atlantis, is this it ? - 2/25/2009 1:29:44 AM   
calamitysandra


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RE: Atlantis, is this it ? - 2/25/2009 2:41:22 AM   
TNstepsout


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrPBK

Then I stand corrected (my apologies)
Would rather pop bubbles than having false information - even with my lapse of memory.



No need to apologize. Your information is a little off, but the gist of it is correct. The story of Atlantis comes to us from Plato who recorded it around 360BC. It supposedly was told to him by Critias, Plato's great grandfather, who learned of it from his great-grandfather (also named Critias) who learned the story from Solon who was an Athenian traveler, poet etc... According to the story, Solon had traveled to Egypt and that's where he heard the story from an Egyptian priest. 

Yes, there were traces of cocaine found in ancient mummies and nicotine too! And it wasn't an isolated event, these chemicals were found in many mummies. There are also other bit's and pieces of evidence that point to a connection between the America's and ancient Egypt. There is much evidence to support the possibility that at one time there was a large widespread civilization that connected many parts of the globe. There are linguistic similarities, religious and mythological similarities, architectural similarities and much much more.

Based on fact that we KNOW that our earliest ancient ancestors, the Sumerians, had very advanced knowledge of mathematics, the calendar, the solar system, the dimensions of the earth, geometry etc.... we have to assume that at one time, ancient people were quite advanced, and for some reason their knowledge declined.  So if they were advanced, where did that knowledge come from? According to scientists, humans develop over time. They learn and grow and become more sophisticated in their understanding over time. They evolve. But based on what we know, that didn't happen. The Sumerians just pop up one day with all this advanced knowledge and then over time, it kind of eroded and disappeared.  So if it's taken us thousands of years to get to where we are now, what happened to the thousands of  years it took for the Sumerians to develop? Where's the history BEFORE their history? Where did they come from?

There is a reason we call these "ancient mysteries" and we call these archeological sites "mysterious" sites. The truth is that scientists are baffled by many of the things they have found in ancient sites. With all of these questions, it's arrogant to assume that we "know" what really happened in the past. The truth is we haven't a clue.

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RE: Atlantis, is this it ? - 2/25/2009 7:07:52 AM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		Actually cocaine, nicotine and THC were only reported by one group of researchers and the results were not reproduced.

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RE: Atlantis, is this it ? - 2/25/2009 4:50:11 PM   
TNstepsout


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Actually cocaine, nicotine and THC were only reported by one group of researchers and the results were not reproduced.


You imply that the results CAN'T be reproduced, or that other tests have failed to produce the same results. That is not the case. The results have not been reproduced because no one has tried yet. 

As far as I am concerned the researcher who did these tests has very sound credentials and training and the testing was extensive. So until someone else comes along and does the exact same tests and comes up with different results, I'm taking her word for it that these chemicals were found in these mummies and these mummies are ancient. So far, no one has been able to debunk her research except to say "it's impossible".  Not exactly sound science in my book.

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Misc/mummies.htm

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RE: Atlantis, is this it ? - 2/25/2009 5:24:44 PM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		Note that there are a lot of claims but no substance to anything in that transcript.

For instance there is a section early on where hair shaft testing is talked about. Now scour the transcript. Where is the statement that the hair shaft test was positive for cocaine or nicotine? Nice try at misdirection but after years of debunking stuff like this it was fairly obvious.

Now notice farther on the claims about nicotine concentrations. That they were astoundingly high, lethaly high. So high that the writers decided they had better make it sound like it was used in embalming as a antibacterial agent. So they have to flounder around with some claim of an extinct species of tobacco that occured in the Old World. Sounds like sample contamination to me.

And finally at the end was the "confirmation" that the english mummies also had evidence of nicotine. How much? Nicotine does appear in other plants besides tobacco so without concetration info that claim is useless.

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RE: Atlantis, is this it ? - 2/25/2009 9:07:13 PM   
TNstepsout


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quote:

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Misc/mummies.htm
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Note that there are a lot of claims but no substance to anything in that transcript.

No substance? What do you want? They tested over 3,000 samples!

For instance there is a section early on where hair shaft testing is talked about. Now scour the transcript. Where is the statement that the hair shaft test was positive for cocaine or nicotine? Nice try at misdirection but after years of debunking stuff like this it was fairly obvious.
Yes they talk about hair shaft testing because they are describing the kind of testing used on these mummies. Once they described the test used, apparently they didn't feel the need to mention it every time they spoke of their results.

Now notice farther on the claims about nicotine concentrations. That they were astoundingly high, lethaly high. So high that the writers decided they had better make it sound like it was used in embalming as a antibacterial agent. So they have to flounder around with some claim of an extinct species of tobacco that occured in the Old World. Sounds like sample contamination to me.
Did you miss the part where there were fragments of tobacco found in the wrappings of at least one mummy?  If the nicotine was found there, it was found there. All the researchers are attempting to do is come up with a viable reason why. Maybe they are not correct, but it's certainly far more viable that just denying the results because they are inconvenient.

And finally at the end was the "confirmation" that the english mummies also had evidence of nicotine. How much? Nicotine does appear in other plants besides tobacco so without concetration info that claim is useless.
Maybe in this article the concentrations are not listed. That doesn't mean the information is not available.


I have to ask you, what possible motive would this researcher have to falsify such strange results? Out of all the things a researcher might come up with to create a hoax, or falsify results to make a name for his or herself, why would they choose something so odd? Something that would put them on the wrong end of the establishment in their chosen field? It's not like this researcher had a preconceived agenda and was looking for information to prove it. She just happened to stumble upon these results.

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RE: Atlantis, is this it ? - 2/25/2009 10:10:05 PM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		Never said it was done fraudulently. I'm saying they got results that are beyond bizzare and they didn't do the correct follow up, real research submitted to a peer reviewed journal, but instead used it as fodder for a TV show.

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RE: Atlantis, is this it ? - 2/26/2009 5:36:45 AM   
TNstepsout


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Never said it was done fraudulently. I'm saying they got results that are beyond bizzare and they didn't do the correct follow up, real research submitted to a peer reviewed journal, but instead used it as fodder for a TV show.


Dr. Balabanova's results were published in the German Journal Naturwissenschaften under the title "First Identification of Drugs in Egyptian Mummies".



< Message edited by TNstepsout -- 2/26/2009 5:40:52 AM >

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RE: Atlantis, is this it ? - 2/26/2009 5:47:16 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Never said it was done fraudulently. I'm saying they got results that are beyond bizzare and they didn't do the correct follow up, real research submitted to a peer reviewed journal, but instead used it as fodder for a TV show.


Well I guess we're back to square one then. The fact that no one else has replicated the tests and come to the same conclusion is your basis for dismissing this science.  Since no one has made any attempt to replicate the science I can't assume it's in error. Perhaps you can, but I cannot.

You misunderstand. If this had been published I could go read it and look at the data. What got published was a couple of short papers that presented the claims that the compounds were detected. No info on how the mummies had been verified as ancient. No info on how the samples had been collected and tested. Etc.

That means its hard to take the claim seriously and the lack of followup by the original researchers is suspicious. If I had what I believed was incontrovertible evidence of trade between Egypt and the Americas during the Middle Kingdom period I would have done the tests and produced a paper that couldn't be dismissed for lack of detail.

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RE: Atlantis, is this it ? - 2/26/2009 6:39:54 AM   
Aneirin


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Status: offline 		I wonder, in this world of information, how much of what has been found or discovered is suppressed, perhaps quietly swept under the edge of the carpet, so as not assault the knowledge and understanding of those who hold the power of knowledge in matters of the past.

Are historians, academics, researchers and field archeaologists honest in what they find, could there be things found, but quietly put aside, things which might invite ridicule on the theories that are forming in their mind, perhaps it is safer to quietly forget or mislabel if a personal professional future is seen  and cared about.

Surely it is the duty of researchers in the field of the past to report the findings for the world's consumption , not their belief as if it is all that matters.

Maybe, if all was presented in all honesty, maybe we could understand our worldly position in relation to the past. We have the gift of intelligence, surely our place in world history is not that important so as to believe we are the best production yet.

Could it be arrogance of the present human race is what stops us being  what we could be if we took the past in total honesty.


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RE: Atlantis, is this it ? - 2/26/2009 9:13:35 AM   
TNstepsout


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I wonder, in this world of information, how much of what has been found or discovered is suppressed, perhaps quietly swept under the edge of the carpet, so as not assault the knowledge and understanding of those who hold the power of knowledge in matters of the past.

Are historians, academics, researchers and field archeaologists honest in what they find, could there be things found, but quietly put aside, things which might invite ridicule on the theories that are forming in their mind, perhaps it is safer to quietly forget or mislabel if a personal professional future is seen  and cared about.

Surely it is the duty of researchers in the field of the past to report the findings for the world's consumption , not their belief as if it is all that matters.

Maybe, if all was presented in all honesty, maybe we could understand our worldly position in relation to the past. We have the gift of intelligence, surely our place in world history is not that important so as to believe we are the best production yet.

Could it be arrogance of the present human race is what stops us being  what we could be if we took the past in total honesty.



I couldn't agree more. There is considerable pressure on professionals to conform to current accepted theories and to interpret findings in light of those theories. If their discoveries do not conform, or even worse, challenge accepted theories, these researchers find themselves subject to all kinds of ridicule and accusations and may find their careers in jeopardy. It's a real shame because it forces these researchers to either abandon their research or take it to other outlets that are less "reliable" or "legitimate". 

Science is supposed to be about keeping an open mind and making discoveries. Unfortunately in many areas it has become a dogma just as stifling as the religious one it sought to eliminate.

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RE: Atlantis, is this it ? - 2/26/2009 9:44:58 AM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		That's simply not true. The researcher who turns accepted theory upside down, and is right, becomes famous. Einstein, Darwin etc.

More recently the field of dinosaur paleontology was completely changed by some discoveries by a group of then young scientists, Bob Horner, Paul Soreno etc.. They certainly weren't repressed or swept under the rug but they were challenged to be rigorous enough to convince skeptics.

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RE: Atlantis, is this it ? - 2/26/2009 10:14:11 AM   
FRSguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No comment on validity but I do have one on the explanation…It seems to me this phenomena would of at least happened before in the collection process in the millions and millions of sq miles…If it is why not show other examples?

Butch


Thats what I was thinking... if its a mistake then why is the mistake not repeated... also, why are there grooves or ridges leading to the current islands around it.... seems strange that the lines would go off on compleatly different anges because all the "mistakes" created right angle marks.

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