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RE: Remember when Obama said he wouldn't come after peo... - 2/26/2009 4:03:27 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		"Tank Girl, the Musical"
 
Live at a theatre near you!


quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

WHO CARES, I just want to Own a Tank so I can go..... I Own a Fucking Tank.

Think Hill Billy Red Neck and their Tires I would be just as proud of my Tank.

It could fire Blanks or be a big f'ing water gun for all I care, I just want a Tank.

Steel


_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to SteelofUtah)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: Remember when Obama said he wouldn't come after peo... - 2/26/2009 4:07:29 PM   
MarsBonfire


Posts: 1034
Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline 		A Modest Proposal:

First, this is the reinstatement of a previous weapons ban. The reason it's being brought back is because the drug cartels south of the boarder are going bugfuck, and the streetcorner violence is threatening to spread to smalltown USA. The world of paranoid gun hording didn't come to an end when the ban was on the books before, and it won't now.

Second, if you really think having a cashe of assault weapons is going to make you safe against the US government, I'd suggest you schlep your eyeballs on over to Youtube and take a look at David Koresh's compound in Waco burning to the ground again. Lotta good their little armory did for them, eh? If you want to fight against US government acting in a tyrannical way, I'd suggest you take a tip from our enemies in Iraq... do it as a fight against an occupation. Being sneaky will get you farther than a straight, stand up fight against forces that you can NOT POSSIBLY WIN against.

Just sayin'...

Third... those who want assault weapons... already have them. If they are smart, when this ban goes back into effect, they'll bundle them up nice and safe, and bury them someplace handy. This accomplishes two things: 1) it keeps the weapons handy "just in case the US government tries something" (yeah right... if that were going to happen, it would have under "Bad King George Bush II.")  and... 2) they keep them OUT of the hands of gun nuts who might feel like they need to go shoot somebody because they've lost their temper. Having to dig up a well buried cashe tends to take a while, and gives gun owning assholes (not talking about present company... just gun owning assholes in general) a chance to cool down before they can reach the ordinance.

But frankly, I agree with boijen on this one... want me to get upset about gun rights? Fine. Make sure I have full rights as a US citizen... THEN I'll consider supporting you beady-eyed, paranoid, GOP lovin' gun nuts who come off sounding more like Larry the Cable Guy after a couple cases of beer, than anyone intelligent, and reasonable. (Which is a problem that the gun lobby has always had, I might add... they can't seem to find someone who looks reasonable in public to save their lives. They almost had something with Heston... but then they blew it with the post Columbine rally just days after the massacre, painting themselves right back into the "insensitive nutcase" corner.)

BTW, I'm a lifetime member of the NRA. Go ahead and rant. I've heard all this crap before. You really think hearing it come from the likes of sanity or corysub or the dude that named himself after that third rate "adult swim" character is really gonna hurt my widdle feelings? ROFLMAO! Perception is reality in this day and age. And gun owners seem to have a compulsion to cast themselves in the worst possible light. Everytime the gun lobby does something worthwhile, like Ducks Unlimited, or it's work with the Sierra Foundation... the Larry the Cable Guy types step into the spotlight and fuck it all up for them.

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: Remember when Obama said he wouldn't come after peo... - 2/26/2009 4:09:32 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Did you notice how Holder insists that it's for the good of our friends in Mexico?

Yeah, and I'm like you. I'm neither shocked nor surprised, and I do recall a friend of mine saying (at the time he made that promise) that because of his anti-gun voting history, Obama was probably lying.



Then why start the thread?

_____________________________



(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Remember when Obama said he wouldn't come after peo... - 2/26/2009 4:12:56 PM   
MarsBonfire


Posts: 1034
Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline 		Domiguy,

'Cause some people like to hear themselves bitch.

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Remember when Obama said he wouldn't come after peo... - 2/26/2009 4:13:44 PM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		Again, define the term "assault weapon" for me.  Better yet, tell me the difference between a mini-14 (legal under the old ban) and an AR-15 (outlawed under the old ban.). 

(in reply to MarsBonfire)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Remember when Obama said he wouldn't come after peo... - 2/26/2009 4:15:38 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Obama and his minions promised prior to the election that Obama will never infringe on gun owner's rights:

http://www.aflcio.org/issues/politics/obama_guns.cfm

http://www.huntersandshooters.org/node/1389

http://theapp.appstate.edu/content/view/4786/41/

http://www.idahostatesman.com/128/story/675677.html




_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Remember when Obama said he wouldn't come after peo... - 2/26/2009 4:19:00 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Your Op claimed he had said he wouldnt come after guns. My post showed that wasnt what he said. The link is there for you.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Remember when Obama said he wouldn't come after peo... - 2/26/2009 4:21:26 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Specifically to underscore the fact that President Obama's words are utterly meaningless.


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Then why start the thread?


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Remember when Obama said he wouldn't come after peo... - 2/26/2009 4:24:42 PM   
SpinnerofTales


Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I do recall a friend of mine saying (at the time he made that promise) that because of his anti-gun voting history, Obama was probably lying.
ORIGINAL: Sanity


Whether you agree with President Obama or not, the idea that he is or has lied is ludicrous. Obama has been clear on what his stand on gun ownerships and the limits of that gun ownership should be for a very long time. To quote:

"As a general principle, I believe that the Constitution confers an individual right to bear arms.but just because you have an individual right does not mean that the state or local government can't constrain the exercise of that right, in the same way that we have a right to private property but local governments can establish zoning ordinances that determine how you can use it." 2008 Philadelphia primary debate, on eve of PA primary Apr 16, 2008

On gun ownership in general, Obama clearly stated:

I think we have two conflicting traditions in this country. I think it's important for us to recognize that we've got a tradition of handgun ownership and gun ownership generally. And a lot of law-abiding citizens use it for hunting, for sportsmanship, and for protecting their families. We also have a violence on the streets that is the result of illegal handgun usage. And so I think there is nothing wrong with a community saying we are going to take those illegal handguns off the streets. And cracking down on the various loopholes that exist in terms of background checks for children, the mentally ill. We can have reasonable, thoughtful gun control measure that I think respect the Second Amendment and people's traditions. Source: 2008 Politico pre-Potomac Primary interview Feb 11, 2008

On assault weapons, Obama also plain out said:

I think it is a scandal that this president did not authorize a renewal of the assault weapons ban. Source: Illinois Senate Debate #3: Barack Obama vs. Alan Keyes Oct 21, 2004

In short, Mr. Obama has always stated that he believed that while there is a constitutional right to bear arms, it is not an absolute mandate for anyone with the desire to own any kind of weaponry that catches their fancy.

Now I know that we've all gotten used to a President who boils down complicated issues into easily digested concepts like "Guns Good. Terrorists Bad" but come on, folks, it took me all of thirty seconds to track this stuff down. If all you read is the headline, how the hell can you expect to know the story.

Now..we can debate gun control. We can debate the meaning of the second amendment (all of which save the last fourteen or so words get thrown out by every gun ownership advocate). We can certainl argue whether Obama is doing the right thing or not in trying to ban assault weapons. But let's be clear on one thing, his policy towards guns is clear, public and consistant......and this "HE LIED! HE LIED!" nonsense is just another case of trying to avoid a discussion of issues by yelling loudly about non-existant offences.








(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Remember when Obama said he wouldn't come after peo... - 2/26/2009 4:28:05 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Again, define the term "assault weapon" for me.  Better yet, tell me the difference between a mini-14 (legal under the old ban) and an AR-15 (outlawed under the old ban.). 


Well, honestly, I don't care.

Somehow this has evolved into yet another gun argument, but I'm still not sure of the original intent.

If it was to prove Obama lied, then that's false, as the original post points out and other people have given similar links.

Obama stated his intentions regarding this throughout his campaign.

Myself, I own guns and just don't see this as a big deal.

And I don't understand why other people do, and I've asked this question here and on other gun threads, and I've only gotten the vaguest of answers when I've received an answer at all.



(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Remember when Obama said he wouldn't come after peo... - 2/26/2009 4:28:06 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Following up with that information the full text of the law can be found here -

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c103:H.R.3355.ENR:


And in regards to the changes being largely superficial from what I am reading here the gun manufacturers simply found ways around the legislation.  The results of the ban on violent crime are mixed.
 
What seems to be absent in many of the arguments pro and con is that the 2nd Ammendment was written in a time where the technology was vastly different and the human population much lower and less dense.


"Compliance and avoidance
 
AWB advocates and opponents alike stated that the AWB allowed firearms manufacturers to make minor changes to make their affected firearms legal, and they both described the features affected by the ban as "cosmetic".[5][6]
Some manufacturers complied with the law by removing certain banned features. For example, the AB-10 was a legal version of the TEC-9, with barrel threading and barrel shroud removed; the XM-15 was a legal AR-15 without barrel threading or a bayonet mounting lug; post-ban semi-automatic AK-47s were also sold without folding stocks or bayonet lugs, and with standard or "thumbhole" stocks instead of pistol grips. As the production of large-capacity magazines for civilians had also been prohibited, manufacturers sold their post-ban firearms either with newly-manufactured magazines with capacities of ten rounds or less, or with pre-ban manufactured high-capacity magazines, to meet changing legal requirements."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban




quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush
Actually the original "Assault Weapon Ban" (aka e Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, ) was primarily about cosmetics, not much else:
  • folding or telescopic stock
  • pistol grip protruding conspicuously beneath the action
  • grenade launcher
  • bayonet mount
  • flash suppressor or barrel having a threaded muzzle
  • detachable magazine
    Assault handguns:
  • magazine that attaches outside of the pistol grip
  • a threaded barrel that can accept a barrel extender or a flash suppressor
  • a shroud that is attached to or encircles the barrel that permits the shooter to hold the weapon with the non-trigger hand without being burned
  • manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when unloaded
  • semiautomatic version of an automatic weapon


    • _____________________________

    "Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
    So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
    great day, I will tease you all the same."
    "WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


    http://KinkMeet.co.uk

    (in reply to Crush)
    Profile   Post #: 131
    RE: Remember when Obama said he wouldn't come after peo... - 2/26/2009 4:28:35 PM   
    Sanity


    Posts: 22039
    Joined: 6/14/2006
    From: Nampa, Idaho USA
    Status: offline
    At his campaign stops he told the people in the crowds around him that he would not infringe on their gun rights, and my links prove that is precisely the case. You have provided evidence that he made promises on the other side of that fence - and I will agree that's likely.

    So, it appears that he has two faces, and we're both entirely correct. He says whatever he believes his current audience wants to hear. Which is really the point anyway - he was willing to say anything to get elected (just words) then he began pursuing his radical agenda once he was in.


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Politesub53

    Your Op claimed he had said he wouldnt come after guns. My post showed that wasnt what he said. The link is there for you.


    _____________________________

    Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

    (in reply to Politesub53)
    Profile   Post #: 132
    RE: Remember when Obama said he wouldn't come after peo... - 2/26/2009 4:33:04 PM   
    Coldwarrior57


    Posts: 297
    Joined: 12/27/2008
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

    A Modest Proposal:

    First, this is the reinstatement of a previous weapons ban. The reason it's being brought back is because the drug cartels south of the boarder are going bugfuck, and the streetcorner violence is threatening to spread to smalltown USA. The world of paranoid gun hording didn't come to an end when the ban was on the books before, and it won't now.

    Second, if you really think having a cashe of assault weapons is going to make you safe against the US government, I'd suggest you schlep your eyeballs on over to Youtube and take a look at David Koresh's compound in Waco burning to the ground again. Lotta good their little armory did for them, eh? If you want to fight against US government acting in a tyrannical way, I'd suggest you take a tip from our enemies in Iraq... do it as a fight against an occupation. Being sneaky will get you farther than a straight, stand up fight against forces that you can NOT POSSIBLY WIN against.

    Just sayin'...

    Third... those who want assault weapons... already have them. If they are smart, when this ban goes back into effect, they'll bundle them up nice and safe, and bury them someplace handy. This accomplishes two things: 1) it keeps the weapons handy "just in case the US government tries something" (yeah right... if that were going to happen, it would have under "Bad King George Bush II.")  and... 2) they keep them OUT of the hands of gun nuts who might feel like they need to go shoot somebody because they've lost their temper. Having to dig up a well buried cashe tends to take a while, and gives gun owning assholes (not talking about present company... just gun owning assholes in general) a chance to cool down before they can reach the ordinance.

    But frankly, I agree with boijen on this one... want me to get upset about gun rights? Fine. Make sure I have full rights as a US citizen... THEN I'll consider supporting you beady-eyed, paranoid, GOP lovin' gun nuts who come off sounding more like Larry the Cable Guy after a couple cases of beer, than anyone intelligent, and reasonable. (Which is a problem that the gun lobby has always had, I might add... they can't seem to find someone who looks reasonable in public to save their lives. They almost had something with Heston... but then they blew it with the post Columbine rally just days after the massacre, painting themselves right back into the "insensitive nutcase" corner.)

    BTW, I'm a lifetime member of the NRA. Go ahead and rant. I've heard all this crap before. You really think hearing it come from the likes of sanity or corysub or the dude that named himself after that third rate "adult swim" character is really gonna hurt my widdle feelings? ROFLMAO! Perception is reality in this day and age. And gun owners seem to have a compulsion to cast themselves in the worst possible light. Everytime the gun lobby does something worthwhile, like Ducks Unlimited, or it's work with the Sierra Foundation... the Larry the Cable Guy types step into the spotlight and fuck it all up for them.
    it was unconstitutional then and it is still.
    SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.
    SIMPLE words .


    _____________________________

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
    -- George Orwell

    (in reply to MarsBonfire)
    Profile   Post #: 133
    RE: Remember when Obama said he wouldn't come after peo... - 2/26/2009 4:33:49 PM   
    rulemylife


    Posts: 14614
    Joined: 8/23/2004
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Sanity


    At his campaign stops he told the people in the crowds around him that he would not infringe on their gun rights, and my links prove that is precisely the case. You have provided evidence that he made promises on the other side of that fence - and I will agree that's likely.

    So, it appears that he has two faces, and we're both entirely correct. He says whatever he believes his current audience wants to hear. Which is really the point anyway - he was willing to say anything to get elected (just words) then he began pursuing his radical agenda once he was in.


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Politesub53

    Your Op claimed he had said he wouldnt come after guns. My post showed that wasnt what he said. The link is there for you.



    Then maybe you should provide some links to show us his other face.

    (in reply to Sanity)
    Profile   Post #: 134
    RE: Remember when Obama said he wouldn't come after peo... - 2/26/2009 4:38:03 PM   
    Crush


    Posts: 1031
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Vendaval

    What seems to be absent in many of the arguments pro and con is that the 2nd Ammendment was written in a time where the technology was vastly different and the human population much lower and less dense.


    And your point?  Does that mean we are less threatened nowadays?   Do all the bad guys just have blunderbusses?



    _____________________________

    "In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

    (in reply to Vendaval)
    Profile   Post #: 135
    RE: Remember when Obama said he wouldn't come after peo... - 2/26/2009 4:41:31 PM   
    Vendaval


    Posts: 10297
    Joined: 1/15/2005
    Status: offline     		No, wrong on both counts.  I am saying that laws written hundreds of years ago could not have predicted the scenarios that we have today with #1 higher human population living in closer quarters and #2 technological advancements.
     
    It is an observation of what is missing from the argumentation.  Both factors need to be taken into consideration in the larger picture.

    (edited to fix sentence structure)

    < Message edited by Vendaval -- 2/26/2009 5:10:08 PM >

    _____________________________

    "Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
    So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
    great day, I will tease you all the same."
    "WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


    http://KinkMeet.co.uk

    (in reply to Crush)
    Profile   Post #: 136
    RE: Remember when ABM said he wouldn't come after peopl... - 2/26/2009 4:45:24 PM   
    Owner59


    Posts: 17033
    Joined: 3/14/2006
    From: Dirty Jersey
    Status: offline     		I remember him saying he was for reasonable gun laws.

    This sounds reasonable.

    _____________________________

    "As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

    President Obama

    (in reply to Vendaval)
    Profile   Post #: 137
    RE: Remember when Obama said he wouldn't come after peo... - 2/26/2009 4:54:15 PM   
    Sanity


    Posts: 22039
    Joined: 6/14/2006
    From: Nampa, Idaho USA
    Status: offline     		 
    Already did. Right here:

    http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2482537


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: rulemylife
    Then maybe you should provide some links to show us his other face.



    _____________________________

    Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

    (in reply to rulemylife)
    Profile   Post #: 138
    RE: Remember when Obama said he wouldn't come after peo... - 2/26/2009 4:55:39 PM   
    kdsub


    Posts: 12180
    Joined: 8/16/2007
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Crush

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: angelikaJ
    FR
    http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2008/10/boys_dies_in_sh.html


    And your point? 
    http://www.postchronicle.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=113&num=200785
    It is called news because it doesn't happen very often..
    ==============
    NB:  It is sad that the child died.  But then, it is sad when any child dies.



    You may want to do a little Googling on accidental child deaths by firearms. Maybe then you would understand how you sound to many.

    Butch

    (in reply to Crush)
    Profile   Post #: 139
    RE: Remember when Obama said he wouldn't come after peo... - 2/26/2009 5:00:33 PM   
    SpinnerofTales


    Posts: 1586
    Joined: 5/30/2006
    Status: offline
    quote:

    a well regulated milita, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms,
    shall not be infringed.
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Coldwarrior57


    Webster's dictionary defines a militia as:
    1 a: a part of the organized armed forces of a country liable to call only in emergency b: a body of citizens organized for military service.

    Now how many of those of you who are so rabidly defending the right to bear arms belong to an organized armed force?

    Well regulated implys training, rules and oversight. This does not mean voluntary classes in gun safety hosted by the NRA.

    What the second amendment doesn't say is "Anyone can go out anytime and get any piece of ordinance they can get their hands on for any reason they like".

    If you're going to quote the constitution, quote all of it......remember, it only takes cutting out one word to change "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." to "Congress shall make  law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    If you love the constitution, stop cutting it up to fit your agenda.


    (in reply to Coldwarrior57)
    Profile   Post #: 140
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