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RE: OK, who is more a "Libertarian" than a Co... - 3/7/2009 9:37:09 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		HK, we agree on some and disagree on others, but I now wonder how you would classify yourself. I didn't see your post right away because of umm, you know.

Will you actually call yourself a socialist ? Many will embrace those ideals, which actually would work except for imperfections in those who would implement it. Even communism, if implemented correctly can be made more fair. To that I would agree, but as human kind has put an attitude (for lack) on socialism and communism, which are quite similar, it is the same people who destroy every other system imaginable. The USSR fell and I think it was Putin who warned publicly that "it didn't work for us and it's not going to work for you".

Socialism is not a bad word, even though it failed for the Russians, it worked quite well for the Germans. Remember what the Z stands for in the word Nazi. That country made great strides in a very short time and to this day enjoys some benefit from the policies of the Nazi regime. Some. However they do not have freedom of speech. I mean is you get a sign and just walk down the street there with it, the says simply "D6MRD" you go to prison. Not jail for being a rabblerouser, to prison for years. Ask Ernst Zundel all about it. That is plain worng, but I think somehow they are being made to live down the improprieties of the past, just as we are asked to live down the days of slavery in the US. Like a punishment.

Regardless, if you are a socialist so be it, you are allowed to be what you want to be. Even the olman one day over a couple of beers we were talking about McCarthy. No matter what the intent McCarthy was wrong, because you are allowed to be a communist. You are not allowed to subvert our way and turn this country communist, but to embrace their views and ways is not a crime in any way. This is from a guy who is now seventy years old and still uses the N word and everything. Although even he knows that the color has been pretty much drained out of the N word.

So to embrace communist views and ways, and to peacably assemble and discuss LAWFUL ways to express and promote your views is perfectly within the Constitution. However McCarthy did not see it that way.

Anyone on either side of an issue hurts their position. A card carrying gun guy (CCW license) said something about the Constitution the other day, and he is a friend and is on "our" side, but I had to stop him. I told him "The Constitution does not say that, and if you want others to read it right and not interpret, you must also not do the same".

So to boil it down, some of your views do seem to be socialistic, as well as others here. We cannot avoid it I think. I have already stated in another thread that real money rather than a fiat currency does not work when the world is as overpopulated as it is. We must be somewhat socialistic to survive. It's just a matter of how far we want to go.

I pledge allegance to the flag,
Of the semi-socialist republic,
Of the United States Of America.

Well not really to the flag but you know what I mean.

Surely you have heard of Horatio Bunce. However we were not born into those times. We are in the here and now and if we do not do what works, we are dead.

I am just about an anarchist, I am for death, but of course mainly for others, leaving more of the world to me. So if socialism ws actually made official I might not be the best choice to administer it.

Things need to change and they will, but in what direction ?

T

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
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RE: OK, who is more a "Libertarian" than a Co... - 3/7/2009 4:02:42 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

"In the context of the European socialist movement, libertarian has conventionally been used to describe those who opposed state socialism, such as Mikhail Bakunin. In the United States, the movement most commonly called libertarianism follows a capitalist philosophy; the term libertarian socialism therefore strikes many Americans as a contradiction in terms. However, the association of socialism to libertarianism predates that of capitalism, and many anti-authoritarians still decry what they see as a mistaken association of capitalism to libertarianism in the United States.[22] As Noam Chomsky put it, a consistent libertarian "must oppose private ownership of the means of production and the wage slavery which is a component of this system, as incompatible with the principle that labor must be freely undertaken and under the control of the producer."[23]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism
What in the US is called "Libertarianism" I call "Radical Capitalism".

Well the European model of socialism leaves the strict definition behind as few means of production is actually owned by European govts. and most of what was...has been sold off to private investors.

Chomsky is wrong in that strict libertarianism desires virtual laissez-faire capitalism with zero govt. ownership of production. Libertarianism is a socialogical ideology that sees govt. as an evil necessity and in that...they are correct. Socialism is an economic ideology that views govt. as the ulimate, benign regulator...neither ideal will work.

As for the OP...I am an ultra-moderate, right wing, revolutionary...pacifist. Oh, and a card-carrying Dirty-Old-Man...I just lost my card.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: OK, who is more a "Libertarian" than a Co... - 3/7/2009 4:58:27 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

Termyn8or
Socialism is not a bad word, even though it failed for the Russians, it worked quite well for the Germans. Remember what the Z stands for in the word Nazi. That country made great strides in a very short time and to this day enjoys some benefit from the policies of the Nazi regime. Some. However they do not have freedom of speech.

When I read such posts it makes we wonder just how people learn about such things. Neither the Russians or the Germans (nazis) were socialists. The nazis used radical left wing propaganda, calling it 'nationalist socialism' then violence and extortion to 'get elected' take power. Then Germany became one of history's most resolute police states and a capitalist fascism. The nazis stole the means of production, enriched themselves and simply turned German society into a war machine.

The Russians were communists not socialists as the govt. 'owned' everything including you. It is called 'collectivization' where all of society 'served' all of society and almost everything from production...was rationed mainly because there was never enough. There was no incentive to produce and thus little wealth was produced and even then most could not fulfill their demand for goods...because they were too poor.

China and Russia along with to a large degree...Mexico are just about ideal capitalist fascisms. Mexico still has constitutional courts but they won't last that much longer even though they did shoot down Wal-Mart's attempts to pay in script redeemable ONLY at Wal-Mart. (a dead giveaway at the future)

So China and Russia is producing millionaires and billionaires but only the chosen party oligarchs.

A socialist is not something one is 'free' to be. To however, believe in socialism and govt. ownership of the means of production, then you try to elect officials that will use govt. to take (purchase) that ownership. All this country seems to own is the risk and not the means or profits. (benefits) We own the risk in farming, banking and now wall street and those are the three areas in which America is a 'socialism.'

BTW, the rest of yours here refers to civil and individual political rights both of which can be protected under a socialist economic regime. There can be but yet has never been tried, is a socialist democratic republican form of govt.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 3/7/2009 5:52:55 PM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: OK, who is more a "Libertarian" than a Co... - 3/7/2009 10:37:39 PM   
stella41b


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From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline 		21st century Bolshevik

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RE: OK, who is more a "Libertarian" than a Co... - 3/8/2009 12:44:45 AM   
awmslave


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quote:

OK, who is more a "Libertarian" than a Conservative or a Liberal here?

I support libertarians. US Constitution is basically libertarian.
Obviously, when asking such question one should define what he exactly means. All three terms can mean different things for different people as it well comes out from previous posts. In my understanding ideologically libertarian and liberal do not differ much. Libertarian in general puts more emphasis on personal freedom than liberal. Conservatism differs fundamentally putting an emphasis on preserving status quo and "old fashioned"  historically tested values.
In American politics the terms are (in my understanding) loosely and often wrongly used. For example Democrat party is often associated with liberalism (and Obama even labeled as extreme liberal) while Republicans are viewed as conservatives. Actually, both parties have elements of both ideologies Democrats leaning more towards liberalism, Republicans towards conservatism. Obama is best described as a progressive (H. Clinton correctly identified herself as a progressive). He believes the government is society's brain and can engineer social environment into much better shape.

(in reply to stella41b)
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RE: OK, who is more a "Libertarian" than a Co... - 3/8/2009 3:04:54 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

21st century Bolshevik

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk69e1Vcmvg
Right On!

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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RE: OK, who is more a "Libertarian" than a Co... - 3/8/2009 4:52:46 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

Termyn8or
Socialism is not a bad word, even though it failed for the Russians, it worked quite well for the Germans. Remember what the Z stands for in the word Nazi. That country made great strides in a very short time and to this day enjoys some benefit from the policies of the Nazi regime. Some. However they do not have freedom of speech.

When I read such posts it makes we wonder just how people learn about such things. Neither the Russians or the Germans (nazis) were socialists. The nazis used radical left wing propaganda, calling it 'nationalist socialism' then violence and extortion to 'get elected' take power. Then Germany became one of history's most resolute police states and a capitalist fascism. The nazis stole the means of production, enriched themselves and simply turned German society into a war machine.

The Russians were communists not socialists as the govt. 'owned' everything including you. It is called 'collectivization' where all of society 'served' all of society and almost everything from production...was rationed mainly because there was never enough. There was no incentive to produce and thus little wealth was produced and even then most could not fulfill their demand for goods...because they were too poor.

China and Russia along with to a large degree...Mexico are just about ideal capitalist fascisms. Mexico still has constitutional courts but they won't last that much longer even though they did shoot down Wal-Mart's attempts to pay in script redeemable ONLY at Wal-Mart. (a dead giveaway at the future)

So China and Russia is producing millionaires and billionaires but only the chosen party oligarchs.

A socialist is not something one is 'free' to be. To however, believe in socialism and govt. ownership of the means of production, then you try to elect officials that will use govt. to take (purchase) that ownership. All this country seems to own is the risk and not the means or profits. (benefits) We own the risk in farming, banking and now wall street and those are the three areas in which America is a 'socialism.'

BTW, the rest of yours here refers to civil and individual political rights both of which can be protected under a socialist economic regime. There can be but yet has never been tried, is a socialist democratic republican form of govt.
I'm kind of baffled myself. I mean, I know a little something of the German language, and I have no fucking idea what "Z" means. Maybe the German language has different meanings in Cleveland, Ohio than it does in Berlin. I wouldn't know. My grandmother was born in Berlin, Germany, and not Cleveland.
  But I think it prudent to defer to people who know waaaaay more than I do. In fact, I'm, going to shred my Passport right up, and go sit at the feet of the Really Smart Dom from Cleveland. The twenty years I have spent travelling, trying to learn about different peoples and cultures, were obviously a fucking waste of time, when all I had to do was go to Cleveland and sit at the feets of the Oracle. I don't know what I was thinking, wasting all that time on international flights. Silly fucking me.
"Z!" Hahahaha

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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RE: OK, who is more a "Libertarian" than a Co... - 3/8/2009 6:09:00 AM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

When I read such posts it makes we wonder just how people learn about such things. Neither the Russians or the Germans (nazis) were socialists.



It's easy enough to link Nazi Germany with Socialism, primarily because all belief systems exude a certain amount of thought control. Assuming the hallmark of Facism is thought control, then you could find a certain amount of the fascist discipline in liberal, conservative and socialist thought; I suppose the difference being that thought control is so prevalent in Fascism and Socialism - both authoritarian ideologies. But, the principles underpinning Nazism were conservative. This is seen in that the philosophical spokesman for the Nazi Party was Martin Heidegger, in that Nazi propaganda was vehemently anti-socialist, in that Nazi backers were the conservative elites: big business, militarists/the army and authoritarians/monarchists.

I think you could find a peaceful disposition, war-mongering, construction, destruction, co-operation and self-interest, in any given human being, and at times this will call for the room to breathe while at other times regulation over human behavior will be called for; which is the whole point of the 'Rule of Law' (you must submit to a higher authority, though you are allowed an appeal), and which is why, for me, Libertarianism and Communism are both utopian dreams that bely the experience of human behaviour.

It would be a mistake to think that modern day 'European' governments are socialist in nature. Speaking for England, I'd say we plough a middle ground furrow. In terms of the economy, England is pretty liberal in the free market sense, leading the German Foreign Minister to state that 'England is the most liberal nation on earth'; by that he meant adherence to the free market, flexible labour markets and a provision of welfare that is far less in stature than continental Europe. If you were to take a look at France, you'd be surprised at how much of their perceived Socialism is rooted in the Conservatism of 'no charm in change' and protection of their language, culture and traditions.

Edited to add: Libertarianism? nice idea, but a system must fit human behaviour, rather than how we'd like human behaviour to be. I like Chomsky, it's hard not to as his knowledge is second to none, but how on earth he arrives at the conclusion that 'hierarchy and regulation' is not a human construct, is baffling to say the least.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 3/8/2009 6:11:43 AM >

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RE: OK, who is more a "Libertarian" than a Co... - 3/8/2009 6:16:47 AM   
NormalOutside


Posts: 622
Joined: 1/8/2008
Status: offline 		I'd say I'm anti-government slash libertarian.  Seems libertarianism is one of the hugest political forces of our time, but a huge portion of the population is completely oblivious to its existence because they don't open their eyes and turn off the TV...... imo.

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RE: OK, who is more a "Libertarian" than a Co... - 3/8/2009 1:54:09 PM   
awmslave


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quote:

....for me, Libertarianism and Communism are both utopian dreams that bely the experience of human behaviour...
Edited to add: Libertarianism? nice idea, but a system must fit human behaviour, rather than how we'd like human behaviour to be.


I believe libertarianism in moderate dose do not necessarily lead to anarchy. For example current US Libertarian party platform is very reasonable ( http://www.lp.org/platform ). US Republicans  often use libertarian ideas. For instance Rush Limbough stresses personal freedom and small government claiming them as basic conservative principles (not really, rather conformist behavior is expected from an individual). I believe if US libertarians would reach out to constitutionalists and independents they will have a potential to expand and claim some Congressional seats in  near future. Especially considering the almost certain perspective that the country will be in terrible shape economically after eight years of Obama administration.

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RE: OK, who is more a "Libertarian" than a Co... - 3/8/2009 2:00:57 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Assuming you agree that any system must fit human behaviour, how do you marry human behaviour with Libertarianism?

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RE: OK, who is more a "Libertarian" than a Co... - 3/8/2009 2:08:54 PM   
SilverMark


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I am almost an anarchist, any other questions ?

T
....somehow I am just NOT surprised Term....

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RE: OK, who is more a "Libertarian" than a Co... - 3/8/2009 2:30:36 PM   
awmslave


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quote:

Assuming you agree that any system must fit human behaviour, how do you marry human behaviour with Libertarianism?

I may not understand your point correctly but I see no conflict in advanced society. Moderate libertarianism assumes organized life and  the role of the government. Although, government functions are strictly restricted.
I guess you assume individual actions are disruptive to collective needs. Libertarian ideology certainly understands this controversy and always stresses responsibility, tolerance and respect to rights of others.

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RE: OK, who is more a "Libertarian" than a Co... - 3/8/2009 2:34:20 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave
I believe libertarianism in moderate dose do not necessarily lead to anarchy. For example current US Libertarian party platform is very reasonable ( http://www.lp.org/platform ).

Have you read that document? Blatantly racist, anti worker and union, full of gold standard woo and anti tax BS, heck its even anti public education. Not a reasonable document in the slightest.

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RE: OK, who is more a "Libertarian" than a Co... - 3/8/2009 2:48:30 PM   
awmslave


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quote:

Have you read that document? Blatantly racist, anti worker and union, full of gold standard woo and anti tax BS, heck its even anti public education. Not a reasonable document in the slightest.

Explain me racist element?  Your ideas about tax, education and unions certainly differ.

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RE: OK, who is more a "Libertarian" than a Co... - 3/8/2009 3:12:41 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

Although, government functions are strictly restricted.

Libertarian ideology certainly understands this controversy and always stresses responsibility, tolerance and respect to rights of others.



What is the function of government in a libertarian system? and how does it maintain tolerance, responsibility etc?

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RE: OK, who is more a "Libertarian" than a Co... - 3/8/2009 3:55:56 PM   
awmslave


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quote:

What is the function of government in a libertarian system? and how does it maintain tolerance, responsibility etc?

The same way as in any other system. Public order function of the government does not go away. Libertarian party calls for minimal government bureaucracy not eliminating important functions. 

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RE: OK, who is more a "Libertarian" than a Co... - 3/8/2009 3:56:21 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

quote:

Have you read that document? Blatantly racist, anti worker and union, full of gold standard woo and anti tax BS, heck its even anti public education. Not a reasonable document in the slightest.

Explain me racist element?  Your ideas about tax, education and unions certainly differ.


Racist
Section 2.1: The right to trade includes the right not to trade — for any reasons whatsoever.

Section 3.5: Parents, or other guardians, have the right to raise their children according to their own standards and beliefs.

Anti union
Section 2.7: an employer should have the right to recognize or refuse to recognize a union.

Anti public education
Section 2.8: Education, like any other service, is best provided by the free market

Tax and gold standard woo
Section 2.4: abolishment of ... all federal programs and services not required under the U.S. Constitution.
Section 2.5:  Individuals engaged in voluntary exchange should be free to use as money any mutually agreeable commodity or item. ...the repeal of legal tender laws and compulsory governmental units of account.

Seems pretty clear to me.

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RE: OK, who is more a "Libertarian" than a Co... - 3/8/2009 4:45:11 PM   
awmslave


Posts: 599
Joined: 3/31/2006
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quote:

Seems pretty clear to me.

Racist:
Section 2.1: The right to trade includes the right not to trade — for any reasons whatsoever.

Section 3.5: Parents, or other guardians, have the right to raise their children according to their own standards and beliefs.

Anti union
Section 2.7: an employer should have the right to recognize or refuse to recognize a union.

Anti public education
Section 2.8: Education, like any other service, is best provided by the free market

Tax and gold standard woo
Section 2.4: abolishment of ... all federal programs and services not required under the U.S. Constitution.
Section 2.5:  Individuals engaged in voluntary exchange should be free to use as money any mutually agreeable commodity or item. ...the repeal of legal tender laws and compulsory governmental units of account.

Am I dumb, where the race comes in?  As unions are concerned I am with libertarians. I prefer business to deal with a worker rather than with a union. Certainly nobody wants government to decide how to raise their children. Public education can well be the responsibility of free market. The same applies to health care. IRS should go: libertarians support either flat tax or consumption tax that can be collected without complex organization. Certainly, money should fit its purpose and the government should not be allowed to make your wealth disappear at will (by inflating the currency).

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RE: OK, who is more a "Libertarian" than a Co... - 3/8/2009 5:03:15 PM   
awmslave


Posts: 599
Joined: 3/31/2006
Status: offline 		Ta add to previous. In general libertarians reject the illusion that services are more affordable, cost effective  and accessible when the government gets involved. The current US education and health care systems are clear examples: the most costly per person in the world but not very good.

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