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Dominant Or Enabler, Submissive or Enabled? - 3/2/2009 7:29:03 AM   
CatdeMedici


Posts: 2257
Joined: 10/20/2008
Status: offline 		I've been thinking about this for a few days now, and I think it was windchymes response to Davaneal that brought it to the forefront for discussion--
 
is there a fine line between Dominance and enablement? Do D's go into this with the superhero complex believing they alone can right a wayward submissive?
 
Do s's run here as a means to find that superhero that will provide them with all they need to change, gro, succedd where before they might not have been able to "on their own?
 
Is it a fine line?
 

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RE: Dominant Or Enabler, Submissive or Enabled? - 3/2/2009 7:34:24 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Cat, I think it is very common. Whether it's called enabler, fixer or white knight. It's a tendency I have to I purposely do my best to veer strongly the other way.

I do think we see it alot, not even just here or in a power exchange relationship but all around us. I call it, complimentary weaknesses.


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RE: Dominant Or Enabler, Submissive or Enabled? - 3/2/2009 7:49:19 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

I've been thinking about this for a few days now, and I think it was windchymes response to Davaneal that brought it to the forefront for discussion--
 
is there a fine line between Dominance and enablement? Do D's go into this with the superhero complex believing they alone can right a wayward submissive?
 
Do s's run here as a means to find that superhero that will provide them with all they need to change, gro, succedd where before they might not have been able to "on their own?
 
Is it a fine line?
 
It can be.  I know that I have fallen prey to that "superhero" flight of thought..aka "knight on a white horse" scenario a few times in my life.  In my vanilla life, I did it with my first wife...saved her from her suffocating family and from her own bad choices.  Problem was, I was so caught up in saving her that I didn't realize that the "damsel in distress" was playing the role more than living the role...looking for a way to escape her family and have little supervision besides that of a college student intent on his studies.  After that, I cut wayyyyyyyyy back on the "here I come to save the day" heroics...so much that it didn't show up until my time with my second submissive as she "battled" with her husband.  I was lucky...I caught myself soon enough and forced myself to look at the reality of the situation;  she enjoyed the drama, she wanted me to do the work of "breaking" her bonds with him, she wanted me to make it "right" with her kids, she enjoyed the check she got from the Canadian gov't and thought I would replace it.  That did it for me...
                                                                                                                        I've been hurt since then but not from playing "hero".  I make it clear in RL when I speak to submissives and on my postings here that I will not play someone's therapist/rescuer.  I will be supportive of a submissive's attempts to seek help and I will guide her to those counselors I think CAN help her but I will not be her "savior".  To me, part of being a grown-up in a grown-up relationship is recognizing the difference between master/submissive and romantic partner and therapist and supportive network and realizing that while all of those can mesh, there needs to be a distinction between all of them.  And in all those roles, the one that needs to be placed on someone outside the relationship is therapist/counselor.

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RE: Dominant Or Enabler, Submissive or Enabled? - 3/2/2009 8:24:45 AM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		Yes I have seen many dominants who have this enabler/white knight complex. I stay away from it myself. I am not in this lifestyle to "fix" someone, I am in it to have a healthy partner who wants to walk this path with me. If they have issues they need to see a professional not a Dominant.

~Lashra


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RE: Dominant Or Enabler, Submissive or Enabled? - 3/2/2009 8:30:43 AM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		Yes, I do believe there is often a very fine line. 
  Davan

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RE: Dominant Or Enabler, Submissive or Enabled? - 3/2/2009 8:32:43 AM   
Maya2001


Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

I do think we see it alot, not even just here or in a power exchange relationship but all around us. I call it, complimentary weaknesses.


It is a good term  and have experienced myself.....with illness where the shining white knight rushes in,   appears great while you are in need ..but once the need is resolved the relationship crumbles because he has nothing to fix, ..for him it is a neediness to fix things and make them right ...so he is at a loss when that need no longer exists and his interest fades,  now that I am ill again he is trying to wheedle himself back into my life to take care of me.. and seeing how it played out once i am not interested

as a sub I think it is also easy to play on that need and play the helpless one..to keep him around....making the roles almost reversed...


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RE: Dominant Or Enabler, Submissive or Enabled? - 3/2/2009 8:39:12 AM   
jakelogan01


Posts: 71
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		white knights don't exist...no more than dragons and faeries. however it is true that there is often someone, whether dommy or subby, who helps us realize our potential. they are enablers in that sense. we are enablers in that sense

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RE: Dominant Or Enabler, Submissive or Enabled? - 3/2/2009 8:43:11 AM   
chezzy71


Posts: 412
Joined: 4/19/2008
Status: offline 		Is enabling the same as saving one from falling into an abyss??for me i have always said i don't want to be saved,i wish to be renewed,in a spiritual way.Mistress Cat has touched every fiber of my being and i am breathing anew..i walk diffwerently..i am more confidant in many areas that i was so unsure of in the past.She has given me the gift without riding high on the white horse.It is why i gush so often about her and her capabilities to renew my life with her spirit,her integrity and her kindness.

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RE: Dominant Or Enabler, Submissive or Enabled? - 3/2/2009 8:51:07 AM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		I think that assuming that it is the submissive who is being enabled is a very dangerous suppositon.  The support and assent of a submissive can just as easily enable poor choices and traits in a dominant.

lovingpet

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RE: Dominant Or Enabler, Submissive or Enabled? - 3/2/2009 8:53:39 AM   
YourhandMyAss


Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Sure they do, There's guys with white knight inclinations, who're out to save damsels in distress. they're probably few and farther between now however.
quote:

ORIGINAL: jakelogan01

white knights don't exist...no more than dragons and faeries. however it is true that there is often someone, whether dommy or subby, who helps us realize our potential. they are enablers in that sense. we are enablers in that sense

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RE: Dominant Or Enabler, Submissive or Enabled? - 3/2/2009 9:13:35 AM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline 		Very interesting thread, Cat

I do want to state what MY definition of "enabler" was as I used it in the other thread.  I used it in the more traditional sense, as it is used in 12-step programs, co-dependency, etc.  Following along behind someone who constantly makes bad choices and cleaning up their messes; holding them while they weep and wail about yet another misfortune that "happened" to them, patting them and telling them that it's not their fault; running ahead of them to warn their new friends about how fragile this poor person is and encouraging them to give them breaks and not to be judgemental of them; fostering the illusion that they are weak and victims of bad luck instead of "owning" their mistakes and bad choices.

I think the last one, fostering the weak victim mentality, could indeed be a D to s enabling.  I've seen the "We MUST protect the Subbies" type threads many times in here, suggestions that there should be group homes for dismissed and wayward slaves who are wandering the streets, clueless as to what their next step in life should be. 

Than again, if both D and s are content and happy in those roles, is it okay to cross that line?   

To me, "support and love" is being strong, giving them the good advice if and when they ask for it, being "there" for them if they have a small slip-up, but realize it and strive not to repeat past mistakes.  To me, cleaning up after someone's same mistakes again and again isn't helping at all, but rather, is detrimental, because that "victim" continues to be a victim and never learns and grows.  Some even thrive on the attention being the victim gets them, totally oblivious to the feelings of the emotionally drained enabler they left behind.

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RE: Dominant Or Enabler, Submissive or Enabled? - 3/2/2009 10:31:25 AM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		I think this is what motivates many, but not all.

I want a basic human being with all that comes with being that human being.  Love is my creed and love is all around and I do believe that love can do many things.  Love can bring laughter.  Love can bring about a better understanding of our worth sometimes when someone might be a little bruised from life and need some healing from being valued and loved and even more so... accepted.

I don't want a broken toy I need to mend.  I do want a well used toy that has maybe some marks from play, but isn't so broken that they cannot be a useful toy.  Okay, my words are a bit flaky... but it is just how I see it.  Is a human a toy?  Not really... but it is kind of fun to play it that way.  And in my second um'hood here... toys are kind of interesting!

I think we all need love and acceptance and I think that many times we often bloom when in love or in being loved.  We enhance one another.  If it is more than that and we need a savior... it isn't something I am interested in.  I will support and send them to someone for help, but I will not be spanking, leading or in a relationship with someone that needful of a hero.  They need to find the hero in themselves.

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RE: Dominant Or Enabler, Submissive or Enabled? - 3/2/2009 11:06:29 AM   
FullfigRIMAAM1


Posts: 1160
Joined: 11/20/2008
Status: offline 		I agree there may be a fine line between D/s and enable and enabled relationships...   But, all of the psych talk, and analysis gets to be a little too much, when we expect to find the explanation of every personality, and every reason people do what they do within a textbook....   Especially if we do so without a large grain of salt taken along for genetic, environmental, cultural, and socioeconomic factors.   There is still a bit to learn about humans outside the altar to the species, I believe.

I frequently joke that normalcy is overrated, although am greatful I fall within that spectrum most days, and mean no disrespect to people with serious difficulties navigating life, reality, or this day.  
I make no apologies for the fact that I like the complementing roles and energies that a D/s relationship provides.   As a general rule though, I understand that what makes me tick within a relationship, is decidedly outside the norm, and some of it may be classified as codependent.

My favorite, though limited psych reading, has been Erich Fromm, and after finishing "The art of loving", I felt distinctly abnormal, but heh, what's a dominant lady to do?!     M

< Message edited by FullfigRIMAAM1 -- 3/2/2009 12:04:29 PM >

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RE: Dominant Or Enabler, Submissive or Enabled? - 3/2/2009 11:50:26 AM   
SylvereApLeanan


Posts: 8275
Joined: 11/1/2007
From: Hell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

is there a fine line between Dominance and enablement? Do D's go into this with the superhero complex believing they alone can right a wayward submissive?
Is it a fine line?
 


For me, the answer is "no." I don't have time to babysit a sub. I'm only interested in someone who has her/his life together already or is at least taking significant steps to improve it (such as attending college or some sort of job training). If the sub is broken, I'm not qualified to fix her/him. Nor do I have the inclination to try. I hope that any sub who wanted to serve me would be a strong, capable human being in her/his own right, without being needy.

There's a difference between providing a solid, secure home base from which the sub can grow, offering support, and possibly helping provide incentive for growth and enabling dysfunctional behavior. I don't see the line as particularly fine between the two. This isn't to say that some people on either side of the kneel do enter a D/s relationship with those goals, whether consciously so or not, but I'm sure an equal amount do not.

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RE: Dominant Or Enabler, Submissive or Enabled? - 3/2/2009 5:44:31 PM   
sblady


Posts: 433
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

is there a fine line between Dominance and enablement? Do D's go into this with the superhero complex believing they alone can right a wayward submissive?
 
Yes, I believe the lines between Dominance and enabler can blur.  Some Doms have the "white knight" complex and some subs have "damsel in distress" complex.  I recall asking my Sir to advise me on some of the most inane and simple things that I've always handled on my own as I'd romanticized D/s relationships.  Thank goodness he realized what was going on and insisted that I make my own decisions.  He's there for me when I need to mull things over or am having a difficult time, however, I still stand on my own two feet knowing he's there to catch me when/if necessary.
 
Do s's run here as a means to find that superhero that will provide them with all they need to change, gro, succedd where before they might not have been able to "on their own?
 
I didn't run here (D/s here) seeking a superhero.  My main reason for exploring D/s and power exchange relationships is because I love Dominant men.  I want to be able to be able to lean on someone who has the ability to handle my issues.  I've almost always been the "tough one" in prior relationships and I can honestly say that it feels good to relax and be accepted by just being myself.
 
Is it a fine line?

Yes
 


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RE: Dominant Or Enabler, Submissive or Enabled? - 3/2/2009 5:50:08 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici
Do D's go into this with the superhero complex believing they alone can right a wayward submissive?

Some do, of course.  Mine did/does not.  He is so far from that it's not even funny.
quote:

Do s's run here as a means to find that superhero that will provide them with all they need to change, gro, succedd where before they might not have been able to "on their own?

Again, some do, of course.  Me?  Not on your life.  He did provide me with lots that helped me change and grow in positive ways but I didn't run to Him to do things for me I was incapable of doing.  I have now done some of them because He has shown me a better way - inspired me if you will - but I did them, not Him.  We're both too smart to fall into that trap.
quote:

Is it a fine line?

Yep, I do believe so...........................luci 

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RE: Dominant Or Enabler, Submissive or Enabled? - 3/2/2009 5:59:06 PM   
Huntertn


Posts: 715
Joined: 10/7/2006
Status: offline 		The knight in shinning armour...hmm yes, they are out there..maybe..many of us have deiced not to go that way because its exhausting .  How can a sub serve their Dom's if the Dom has to spend all of their time fixing her problems??  How is this for the Dom if they 24/7 have to clean up behind their subs?  Really. How can you have a partner if you spend your time working to help them..rather than they spend their time helping you?  What ends up that should be a balance relationship in facts becomes a bottom topping their top.....and I see it every day both in this lifestyle and in the straight world too.

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RE: Dominant Or Enabler, Submissive or Enabled? - 3/2/2009 8:39:23 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

 is there a fine line between Dominance and enablement? Do D's go into this with the superhero complex believing they alone can right a wayward submissive?  

Enabling is when we help hide the problem, make excuses for the other person and hang on to the pretense that there is nothing wrong.  What I see happening sometimes is that the dominant believes he or she can ‘fix’ the submissive. Mistress/MasterMightyMouse has the idea that it is possible to make another person change internally with his/her external control. It doesn’t work that way.  Talk all you want about who has the power—authority—control; bottom line, if the submissive has little self control, the D/s relationship is not going to work well, if at all. 
quote:

  Do s's run here as a means to find that superhero that will provide them with all they need to change, gro, succedd where before they might not have been able to "on their own?


Yeah, how many times do we see the words ‘my dominant knows me better than I know myself’?  How is that possible?  I can’t imagine having so little insight.  Yet it seems that there are submissives who lack self awareness and look to the dominant to provide it.   
quote:

  Is it a fine line?

There is a big difference between offering a bit of advice/support and trying to be a therapist.  On another site I used to visit, there were several dominants who promoted themselves as such.  One said he would have a submissive tell him all her traumas and then (his words) “lay a healing on them’!!   Another wrote about how he would set out to discover someone’s phobia and then ‘cure’ them of it.  I don’t believe either of these guys had a clue how risky their ‘dominance’ was!

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RE: Dominant Or Enabler, Submissive or Enabled? - 3/3/2009 5:31:26 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Cat, I think it is very common. Whether it's called enabler, fixer or white knight. It's a tendency I have to I purposely do my best to veer strongly the other way.

I do think we see it alot, not even just here or in a power exchange relationship but all around us. I call it, complimentary weaknesses.



Yes, I see it being very common in any lifestyle, orientation or gender.  As many people who want someone else to "fix" them, there are people who see themselves as the one who can do the fixing.

The concept of the white knight is one thing, but even in the fairy tales the knight only slays the dragon ONCE, he doesn't have to slay the same dragon over and over and over and over again!  King Sisyphus' punishment was to roll the stone uphill only to watch it roll down again, repeating it for all eternity...in other words, it was his hell.

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RE: Dominant Or Enabler, Submissive or Enabled? - 3/3/2009 5:37:30 AM   
daddysliloneds


Posts: 1351
Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline 		there is no fine line, albeit, just as in all walks of life, there are those who want to rescue and those who want to be rescued. 

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