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Honesty - 1/21/2006 1:18:04 PM

RiotGirl

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Does anyone here believe that lying has nothing to do with being an honest person? Can anyone here seperate the actions, from the person? That one can be a dis honest person but never utter a lie?

i touched briefly on it in another thread. Lying does not make you dishonest. That it isnt nesacarily the actions which are the problem, but the person doing them. i see alot of people blaming things on "the liars, manipulators, players, posers" But it really isnt those actions that are the problem. its the people.

i learned all about seperating the action from the person when it came to positive parenting. Its not "bad girl" its "what you did is bad". Follow? The words "bad girl" are not allowed in my house. It makes the action and the person become one. So i learn to seperate.

When it comes to us adults, people are generally set. Now its not "bad action" but "bad person" Yet the action and person are seperated, but in a different way. For example, my mother manipulates left and right, but she is generally a good and honest person. And i know others that manipulate left and right, and they're dishonest ppl. Its not the manipulate that makes them wrong, its who they are.

What are others thoughts? Anyone else seperate actions from ppl?

Post #: 1

RE: Honesty - 1/21/2006 1:40:04 PM

LokisBrat

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I think we all have different "masks" that we put on depending on the situation. For me the seperation is very natural, but I am a gemini and my split personalities have split personalities.

Just never know who is going to pop in and take over.

I think the coolest is being able to draw on those and bring them forward when in different situations.

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RE: Honesty - 1/21/2006 1:41:58 PM

KnightofMists

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UM No. and Um Yes!

No - Actions demonstrated on a consistent person makes a person bad. If one is always lying... well guess what they are Dishonest... if they are alway manipulating... well guess what they are a manipulator.

Yes - People are also about motivations... So what is motivating the person to lie or manipulate... Sometimes the motivations are self-interest.... sometimes they are in the interest of another.

So it is not just behaviors but motivations as well.... this indentiifies the character of a person.

the Good person is motivated towards moral excellence that is manifested thru character strengths into Demonstrated behaviors!

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 1/21/2006 1:52:48 PM >

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RE: Honesty - 1/21/2006 2:35:31 PM

Petruchio

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I find it difficult to lie, so I usually keep my mouth shut if it's something I don't want to reveal. Of course people then say that's prevaricating, so damned if I do, damned if I don't.

(in reply to RiotGirl)

Post #: 4

RE: Honesty - 1/21/2006 2:35:37 PM

cloudboy

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Good question and a great theme, too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl

Does anyone here believe that lying has nothing to do with being an honest person? Can anyone here seperate the actions, from the person? That one can be a dis honest person but never utter a lie?

My wife told me the story of a US soldier in Vietnam. He and his platoon were on Patrol and abmushed. A fight ensued and many casualites resulted. The soldier came through without being injured and was ordered back to the site on recognaisance. He came across a living Vietcong soldier. The US soldier checked the Vietcong one's pockets and found a picture of a US marine w/ his family. The VC looked at the US soldier and smiled, after which the US soldier shot him in the head.

Query: was the US soldier a murderer?

Its a complex question.

a) Serving in the Army and killing the enemy in combat, is that murder?
b) Killing an unarmed, helpless VC, was that murder?

When the US soldier returns to the US and returns to civilian life, is he a murderer or is he a man that committed murder?

How do acts characterize the actor? What role do circumstances play?

----

Re: lying

I totally agree with you when you say "i see alot of people blaming things on "the liars, manipulators, players, posers."

The term "liar" is too easily bandied about.

I prefer to think people are truthful when they feel they can be. Hence how you make other people feel plays a great role in how honestly they will treat you. Next, the circumstances around a person will dictate how honest they can be. So, the question to ask when you discover a lie is, "why did the person tell it."

The motives of a person are more revealing than the actual lie itself.

So, no, individual actions, aka lyinging in specific instances, does not make one A LIAR.

(in reply to RiotGirl)

Post #: 5

RE: Honesty - 1/21/2006 2:38:00 PM

fyreredsub

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Master and i had a 3 way call last night with his former slave, he didnt believe me that my gut was screaming that she didnt want me in his life and i would get so discouraged and i tired to explain to him that if she had lied to him before to cover her wants needs and wishes that she would do it again and he would get so mad at me and think it was me causing the trouble ,well last night she accidently outed herself and told him how she would check his logs to see what he was doing on his computer when she was wearing his collar.
well needless to say that doesn't mean she is a bad person, in my book, just one with insecurities and fears and she didnt know how to deal with them in the right manner.
however, it does leave a bad taste in my mouth for what i expereinced at the hand of manipulation and it also leaves me NOT trusting her in any way shape manner or form b/c she has established herself as being that way for whatever reason and now has given herself the reputaion of deceitfulness which is not the Gorean way nor pleasing in a kajira. i have also learned that i can dectect these kind of people and i do feel vindicated now, it is a shame Master had to find out, but now his eyes have been opened.
imo, ppl manipulate to make a situation work out to their favor, i see that more as control freaks.
lies ,ommission, etc...that is plain ole dishonesty

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RE: Honesty - 1/21/2006 2:40:24 PM

Petruchio

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Of course it's murder, but war is legalized murder and mayhem to begin with.

We love to split hairs to justify wars, but in fact there is no justification at all.

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 7

RE: Honesty - 1/21/2006 2:47:55 PM

truesub4u

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A liar is a liar... point blank, bottom line. If you lied once.. for what ever reason, you will do it again at some point.

I do believe a person can lie.. and actually not know they are lying. But I only believe that to the point that one has lied so much, that they begin to believe their own lies.

(in reply to RiotGirl)

Post #: 8

RE: Honesty - 1/21/2006 2:49:51 PM

Slipstreme

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I tend to be rather blatant and honest, which means Ive got to watch what I say and when, often giving tmi. I have gotten better, being truthful but still hiding some of the details.

Sometimes it is better not to say anything, as in the case of keeping treasured secrets, than anything at all.

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Post #: 9

RE: Honesty - 1/21/2006 4:00:39 PM

JoeBlack

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Lying is a slippery slope,honest examinations of the motives,are important. If a lie is told,to save oneself problems;it's not warranted. However,to avoid unneeded injury to another,on a case to case basis,I think is acceptable.

In the example of the Viet Nam story,I find it impossible to judge;honorable men do horrid things in war. Part of that is character issues,part;the insanity one finds themself in...

(in reply to Slipstreme)

Post #: 10

RE: Honesty - 1/21/2006 4:06:42 PM

IceyOne

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quote:

No - Actions demonstrated on a consistent person makes a person bad. If one is always lying... well guess what they are Dishonest... if they are alway manipulating... well guess what they are a manipulator.

I think that some leeway could be allowed here. For example...when my father was sick, just before he passed away...he would constantly ask about his dog. At first, I told him that the dog had died, which did nothing but agitate him. So, I started telling him that the dog was outside, or off playing somewhere. I lied. Totally and completly. But that does not make me a dishonest person. I believe that you can be an honest person, and yet, at the same time, tell some lies that need to be told.

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(in reply to KnightofMists)

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RE: Honesty - 1/21/2006 5:24:30 PM

RiotGirl

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quote:

UM No. and Um Yes!

No - Actions demonstrated on a consistent person makes a person bad. If one is always lying... well guess what they are Dishonest... if they are alway manipulating... well guess what they are a manipulator.

Yes - People are also about motivations... So what is motivating the person to lie or manipulate... Sometimes the motivations are self-interest.... sometimes they are in the interest of another.

So it is not just behaviors but motivations as well.... this indentiifies the character of a person.

the Good person is motivated towards moral excellence that is manifested thru character strengths into Demonstrated behaviors!

well done. i hadnt thought about that. i suppose you are right again. i hadnt factored the consistancy thing in. But doing so, i see you are right. i think you hit what i was trying to say with the motivation. Thanks

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 12

RE: Honesty - 1/21/2006 5:32:14 PM

truesub4u

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Iceyone,

Because of your post alone.. I stand corrected. And I appologize deeply. You are so correct there. I was thinking of in gerneral. I know i'm quilty of this exact same thing. Only mine was with my former Master. On his death bed, he asked me a question I quickly lied about. So that he could go peacefully. Would I do it again... damn straight!

(in reply to IceyOne)

Post #: 13

RE: Honesty - 1/21/2006 5:37:05 PM

jamesthehumanrug

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yes riot gurl
greetings ;
there are some who profess to be honest ;who lie in 2 ways; not so well known;
in the bible ;theres the sin of ommission;
that by not saying ;it is the same as lying ;but you cant convince some people;
especially lawyers and politicians;
the other is ;
to know there is no virtue in always telling the truth ;
one example is
; if a german in natzi germany were asking you; if you are jewish ;and you knew you are ;and you knew you were going to die and get killed if you told the absolute truth; then you can lie ;because there is no virtue in the truth ;under certain life and death circumstances.
i hate it when someone says ;i didnt lie ;i never said;
cause ;omission is lying ;period ;unless under life and death circumstances.
...as far as sepparating the actions from the person, thats the christian thing to do ,and being highly evolved; we can see the sickness of a person ;makes them act; and the sickness is bad ;not the person....so we forgive,too,
but ,being a "bad girl" did get me in bed more than once ,and made many a great song,...
so did 'bad boys' for, that matter
;imagine; taking that song off me and plagiarizing it for a COP- show!?......
i sang for 30 yrs; my sadists sister walks off with my songs ,and offs everyone ,and, becomes a cop, and lives rich off the land ....bad girl....case in point.

< Message edited by jamesthehumanrug -- 1/21/2006 5:47:50 PM >

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Post #: 14

RE: Honesty - 1/21/2006 5:47:13 PM

RiotGirl

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i agree with you Icey, but i think KoM said it all when it comes to motivation.

Now on to cloudboy cos his post really intriguid me.

quote:

the question to ask when you discover a lie is, "why did the person tell it."

The motives of a person are more revealing than the actual lie itself.

So, no, individual actions, aka lyinging in specific instances, does not make one A LIAR.

Totally agree and i think its awesome you said it. To me its not the lie, its the "why" THATs what matters. And the motives are so revealing. i hate to say it, but i spent most my time around ppl watching their motives. It does tell you alot about ppl. You are such a good thinker and you really made my day with your post. Thanks. The last line i quoted, i suppose, is what i was trying to explain. But you and KoM did so much better. Motives, consitancy and the whys.

quote:

In the example of the Viet Nam story,I find it impossible to judge;honorable men do horrid things in war.

i dont agree. i think honorable men are honorable men. Men that do horrid things in war, just need an excuse to let that inner beast out. If they were truely honorable, it wouldnt matter the circumstances. And as for the viet nam story. i dont think that was actually a horrid thing.

Talking to a friend about this i'm going to re write what i said in a better way. The smile tells us everything. Ug, my friend just made a good point. We dont know what kind of smile it is. But i base my jugdement on the fact that no intelligent person would smile after they've been caught holding the enemies picture. They'd be afraid. Tho my friend says it could of been a friendly smile. Something in me says its not. Who would smile? Held at gun point, picture of the enemy AND his family in your pockets? i'd be afraid. And that fear would show us something too. The viet guy has either guilt or worry some one will take it the wrong way. Now if its guilt, he's not cold blooded and feels.

The picture seems too much like a trophy to me. Killing is a hard thing to do. Granted it takes about 5 sec to aim and pull the trigger, but the hard part is the consequences. To kill with no worry of the consequences, would tell me one doesnt feel too much. To take a trophy would tell me he's proud of it. Definetly not a good person. i'd say evil. So if i am correct and its a trophy i'd say the viet guy deserved death. Its war, he's cold blooded, and the enemy. Not that i would do it. The consequences of killing some one would worry me too much. (the unseen consequences)

As for the soldier. He may be abit cold blooded himself. Like i said, its not easy to kill. Either that or he was absolutely sure the viet guys intent was bad. Or he's absolutely cold blooded too. But from the way i judge the situation, i'd think the soldier was doing some good. i wouldnt call him a murder. But then i dont know his reasons for shooting the other guy.

For me it all falls down to that smile. And i wasnt there to see it.

< Message edited by RiotGirl -- 1/21/2006 6:15:54 PM >

(in reply to IceyOne)

Post #: 15

RE: Honesty - 1/21/2006 5:50:07 PM

RiotGirl

Posts: 3149
Status: offline

quote:

to know there is no virtue in always telling the truth ;
one example is

this i know too well. lol

WOW how did i miss the rest of your post? i was looking RIGHT at it. Yet the rest of your post did not comput in my head. i even went back to look again JUST to make sure i wasnt missing anything. And i clicked "ok" to send and there appeared more to your post. Ug

LOL still fill like i'm missing something to respond too.. but re reading it 3 times, even with the new stuff i see i cant find it so.. uh yeah. LOL

< Message edited by RiotGirl -- 1/21/2006 5:52:51 PM >

(in reply to jamesthehumanrug)

Post #: 16

RE: Honesty - 1/21/2006 5:53:27 PM

Sirandlittle1

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I also separate.
eg. Icyone lied to her father about the dog, she is therefor a liar. But in this act, she was kind. So, i dunno, a 'white lie'? She was right to do so, and a better person for doing so in my book.

When i first got together with my Sir, i would say things i thought he wished to hear, i 'lied'. He has since told me not to do this.

What about when you dont feel submissive and you submit, is that a lie?

When asked at the end of a long tiring day "tell me what my Dirty sluts wants?" ............
there's a tricky one! I generally go for lying by omission here. Because, being your slut is the last thing i want right now thanks, doesnt go down too well. Being honest, is a very complicated thing i find.

little1

The war scenario? its murder. To kill another is murder, full stop! Just coz some twat in high office commanded you to do so, or it would be profitable in oil to do so, does not change the deed. In exactly the same way the icyone lying to her father for his good, does not change the fact that she lied.

< Message edited by Sirandlittle1 -- 1/21/2006 5:58:31 PM >

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Post #: 17

RE: Honesty - 1/21/2006 5:54:27 PM

truesub4u

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Cloudboy,

I could not characterize this at all. I was not there. I do not know what happened. How it happened, why it happened. I was a child back and then. And I know is what I read in books, see in movies (Oh yeah we see the whole truth there don't we?? NOT!!!) and what little the teacher seen fit to teach us in school. I know more from family member that were there to older people I know and talk to. This is too political a responce for this one to get into for someone that wasn't there.

But on the final note of it.... murder/war.... aggressive/defending..... justified or not.. that's something the soldier will have to live with the rest of his life. No one can and should be the judge in this... this is between God and him.

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 18

RE: Honesty - 1/21/2006 6:02:16 PM

girl4you2

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Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl

Does anyone here believe that lying has nothing to do with being an honest person? Can anyone here seperate the actions, from the person?

i learned all about seperating the action from the person when it came to positive parenting. What are others thoughts? Anyone else seperate actions from ppl?

i learned the same things, and use positive parenting skills as well (by the way, h. stephen glenn's developing capable people is great for kids and adults).

on this issue, however, i gotta go with KOM when it comes to these kinds of behaviours. perhaps they might change, but it's highly unlikely. i'll give them the benefit of that and if it happens, then i'm thrillled. if it doesn't, then....

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
UM No. and Um Yes!

No - Actions demonstrated on a consistent person makes a person bad. If one is always lying... well guess what they are Dishonest... if they are alway manipulating... well guess what they are a manipulator.

Yes - People are also about motivations... So what is motivating the person to lie or manipulate... Sometimes the motivations are self-interest.... sometimes they are in the interest of another.

So it is not just behaviors but motivations as well.... this indentiifies the character of a person.

the Good person is motivated towards moral excellence that is manifested thru character strengths into Demonstrated behaviors!

_____________________________

maireann croí éadrom i bhfad. is maith an scáthán súil charad. is leor nod don eolach.
got shoes?

(in reply to RiotGirl)

Post #: 19

RE: Honesty - 1/21/2006 6:07:46 PM

cloudboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Petruchio

Of course it's murder, but war is legalized murder and mayhem to begin with.

We love to split hairs to justify wars, but in fact there is no justification at all.

Well, if so, is he a murderer?

The law brakes murder down into various categories: 1st and 2nd degree, manslaughter, reckless endagement, justifiable, self defense, etc.

Circumstances play a large role in evaluating the crime, when murder is treated a such.

I think the worst lies are ones that play on another's trust and reliance -- i.e. getting trust through dececption in order to do harm. I suppose this would be lying with malicous forethought., or in legal jargon, First Degree Lying.

Impersonating someone online to get a FEM DOM's attention and some sexy cyber exchanges ain't quite the same thing. That's just usual bar room behavior the world over.

(in reply to Petruchio)

Post #: 20

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