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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/5/2009 1:08:48 PM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline 		I'm sorry to hear that Maya. You have our wishes and prayers.

And yes, it is insane to offer options before the extent of anything is known.

(in reply to Maya2001)
Profile   Post #: 201
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/5/2009 1:12:19 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Do you agree or disagree with the Catholic Church on this matter?

You didn't ask the question of me, but...
 
It's the law of God: Do not kill.
 
That's pure bullshit, and the Catholic Church knows it. The commandment proscribes murder. Murder, then as now, is not simply the taking of any human life whatsoever regardless of circumstances.
 
K.
 
 

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Profile   Post #: 202
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/5/2009 1:20:08 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Do you agree or disagree with the Catholic Church on this matter?

You didn't ask the question of me, but...
 
It's the law of God: Do not kill.
 
That's pure bullshit, and the Catholic Church knows it. The commandment proscribes murder. Murder, then as now, is not simply the taking of any human life whatsoever regardless of circumstances.
 
K.
 
 

I'm asking it of everyone. Would anyone support preventing this abortion?

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 203
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/5/2009 1:25:40 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

abortion is a legal option. Men can't do anything to stop that - neither can they stop contributing to the upbringing of their progeny.

Isn't that a form of taxation without representation?
 
K.
 
 

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 204
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/5/2009 1:37:13 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29515505/

Do you agree or disagree with the Catholic Church on this matter?


The really pathetic thing, is that the catholic church is responsible for many murders.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Profile   Post #: 205
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/5/2009 2:32:09 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

abortion is a legal option. Men can't do anything to stop that - neither can they stop contributing to the upbringing of their progeny.

Isn't that a form of taxation without representation?
 
K.
 


No.

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Profile   Post #: 206
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/5/2009 2:45:36 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Isn't that a form of taxation without representation?

No.

Hahahaha!  ... and why not, pray tell?
 
K.
 

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 207
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/5/2009 2:56:51 PM   
UPSG


Posts: 331
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29515505/

Do you agree or disagree with the Catholic Church on this matter?


Well... in answering that I think "Catholic Church" in this context needs to be placed in context given the zeal of the Brazilian Church's lobbying effort in this case.

The Catholic Church is extremely large and covers most the territorial world. Non-Catholics (and even some lesser informed Catholics) tend to think the Pope in Rome presides as a micro-manager over the Catholic Church in every clime and place. This is not so, and one will note that the article does not infer nor state the U.S. or Belgium Catholic Church was lobbying to stop that young girls abortion. Though not a perfect comparison, for sake of better understanding, one might think of the Catholic Church like the United States of America and the Pope like something of the U.S. President in comparison. The Pope (which is title that means "father" and is largely honorary) is the Bishop of Rome and not the Bishop of Detroit or Rio de Janeiro. The Pope is "first among equals" of "Patriarchs" and he is a brother Bishop among other Bishops. He does have a significant authority over other Bishops (increased under John Paul II to the discontent of many other Catholic Bishops around the world) - kind of like the U.S. President over the Governors (who are essentially Presidents of their individual states) of the 50 states of the Union.

So, do I agree with the Brazilian Catholic Church in this instance and or the overall teaching of the Catholic Church which led to Brazilian Bishops reasoned judgement? I'm not sure. While I can accept the Church's view point on the sancity of each life, no matter its stage in growth, nor the tragedy in its mode of creation or state in life (slavery, homeless, drug addicted, mentally retarted, physically disabled, a result of rape et cetera), I don't agree with the Brazilian Catholic Church choice of action in this case.

The heirachy of the Catholic Church is not without playing politics (and picking instances to use as political game) in fact it has centuries of skill at it and might be in possession of one of the better political (diplomatic) schools on earth. This case seems to register as a game of politics played by the Brazilian Church. I mean, there are millions of tragedies in Brazil so why single this case out as a Bishop?

On the other hand, the media is not without its little game of encouraging intrigue around the Catholic Church. Media and journalists like to craftly select what info or half truths of Catholic teaching they will present to the public. And let us be clear, many media outlets are owned by for profit persons or groups that are not without their own poltical and economic interests.



The Catholic Church does allow for abortions in the cases where the mother's life is thought to be endangered.

http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0898.asp    
quote:

4. Medical necessity. What about the argument that the Church must make exceptions to its teaching when abortion is medically necessary for the mother’s health or a child’s disability?

First, while the Church opposes all direct abortions, it does not condemn procedures which result, indirectly, in the loss of the unborn child as a "secondary effect." For example, if a mother is suffering an ectopic pregnancy (a baby is developing in her fallopian tube, not the womb), a doctor may remove the fallopian tube as therapeutic treatment to prevent the mother’s death. The infant will not survive long after this, but the intention of the procedure and its action is to preserve the mother’s life. It is not a direct abortion. There also occur, very rarely, situations in which, in order to save the mother’s life, the child needs to be delivered early. But this can be done safely with a normal, induced delivery, or a caesarean section.


(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/5/2009 2:58:45 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		The child didn't ask to be born: the parents both have to take responsibility, don't you agree?

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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/5/2009 3:09:53 PM   
UPSG


Posts: 331
Joined: 1/22/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

Roe v. Wade was about the sovereignty a woman has to her body in relation to the abortion issue. Such issue should be regarded in a similar light was the legal acknowledgment of marital rape (for most states) in the late 70's and early 80's (though currently some states still have martial rape as an exception to their rape laws on books).

A woman has a right to with her own body as she wishes within the confines of the law. Roe v. Wade was about changing what the confines of the law were. Until that point, the law acknowledge a woman's right to her own body up until she got pregnant, then it was the potential child's body that was given precedence. Let's be clear, the feminist agenda with Roe v. Wade was about a woman's right to do what she wants with her body in regards to abortion, not anything else. It had nothing to do with holiness of the vag (though I worship daily).

I do believe there is an issue of father's rights in the abortion debate though I'm not sure how to meet a father's needs without trampling on a woman's right to her own body. A man can always choose to have another child with another woman or adopt...which I think is a better choice. If a man is clear that he doesn't want to be a father he should also take the necessary precautions in his sex life...just as women should (I did make a suggestion on that). I also think that if a man were clear and specific about that, that he should go do the right thing and get a vasectomy and wait the 60 days before fuckin a chick's cunt without a condom on. I don't have any other suggestions on this issue.


I don't think so, BoiJen. I don't think that is how the Supreme Justices ruling in Roe vs Wade can be interpreted. And I'm going to assume here that we both acknowledge that judges interpret law and judicial rulings.

It would seem to me the Supreme Justices where looking at the issue of when a person - namely women - can determine or opt out of parenthood, because surely a woman having sovereignty over her body would negate criminality in the issue of such things as IV drug use or prostitution. As it is, the Federal (and state governments) Government is running a very expensive war on drugs and routinely adult men and women are thrown behind bars for prostituting themselves.

quote:


anyways...
UPSG there's a boiJen fan club on the polls and random stupidity section...feel free to join...just don't expect much ;-)

boiJen
who's in favor of objectifying women so long as they want it


That I might do!

< Message edited by UPSG -- 3/5/2009 3:12:02 PM >

(in reply to BoiJen)
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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/5/2009 3:14:20 PM   
QuietlySeeking


Posts: 297
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

The child didn't ask to be born: the parents both have to take responsibility, don't you agree?


And if this is truly about equality/inequality under the law, then why do men still have to pay child support in most states, even if they have equal visitation time with the child? 

Hmmmm, smells of that legislated equality which you were deriding in an earlier post, eh?

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 211
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/5/2009 3:26:13 PM   
UPSG


Posts: 331
Joined: 1/22/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Do you agree or disagree with the Catholic Church on this matter?

You didn't ask the question of me, but...
 
It's the law of God: Do not kill.
 
That's pure bullshit, and the Catholic Church knows it. The commandment proscribes murder. Murder, then as now, is not simply the taking of any human life whatsoever regardless of circumstances.
 
K.
 
 


People in casual conversation use "murder" interchangeably with "killing." The term "murder" can also be used to infer a morally wrong killing even if a killing in question was legally justifiable.

In a strict technical sense, however, murder as I understand it,  is "homicide" and is distinguished from "justifiable homicide" or "justifiable killing."

The Catholic Church along with the written traditions of the Old Testament and New Testament recognize justifiable homicide and also the right of the state to execute, ergo Moses commanding the slaughter of thousands of Jews for offering sacrifices to a golden calf, Jesus Hebrew Jewish Inquisition trial and consequent death by Roman authorities, the long run of Catholic Inquisition and death penalties handed down by said Catholic states/kingdoms.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 212
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/5/2009 3:28:36 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

The child didn't ask to be born: the parents both have to take responsibility, don't you agree?


And if this is truly about equality/inequality under the law, then why do men still have to pay child support in most states, even if they have equal visitation time with the child? 

Hmmmm, smells of that legislated equality which you were deriding in an earlier post, eh?


Firstly, I am not responsible for individual States' legislations regarding the matter, and neither am I familiar with them: I am new here. Secondly, visitation time has no incidence on child support (and neither should it: kids are not 'pay per view'). Thirdly, these posters who brought this ridiculous idea of 'Roe for men' argue that men should have a say in whether they should support their offsprings or not. Guess what? Let them not breed if they do not wish to support them!

Under the law, men and women are unequal when it comes to terminating a pregnancy because a man doesn't have a say, in the end. They are unequal when it comes to supporting offsprings, because typically much of the burden,. especially the physical burden, rests with the woman. It gets a little tiring to hear the litany of complaints from people who feel that men have it tough. Everybody has it tough: yet I bet you that many men still run, unaccountable for their actions.



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Profile   Post #: 213
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/5/2009 3:30:25 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		After spending time with you humans I believe firmly that abortion should be mandatory.

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Profile   Post #: 214
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/5/2009 3:31:44 PM   
RainydayNE


Posts: 978
Joined: 10/21/2008
Status: offline 		the "progeny" aren't theirs really, if they have no say in whether the progeny are born or not.
this is a hilarious example of women loving inequality when it is in their favor =p
women want control over their physical future, men should have control over their financial future.

and i seriously think the word "agenda" should be banned here =p it's a wonderful, cheap little way for people with nothing else to say to try to attack people they don't agree with =p
hilarious.

a child didn't ask to be born, but women claim a right to decide if they will be. so they're taking matters into their own hands. therefore if they are the SOLE deciders, they should be content with being the SOLE providers. women influenced by loads of feminism want men to remain in traditional roles as long as it suits them. =p talk about an agenda =p

if this chunk of father's rights ever comes to vote, you can bet i'll be voting FOR it. women let the cat out of the bag, and now they're trying to put it halfway back =p

(in reply to UPSG)
Profile   Post #: 215
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/5/2009 3:39:08 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Gonna make this short and sweet.
Abortion...Pro choice, until all women can rely on a form of birth control, or men are given reversible vascectomies at birth.
Dealth Penalty. For multiple murderers, rapists and child molesters
Right to die? Absolutely,
Pulling the plug... Today is the 2nd anniversary of my dad dying so this rings for me. He had  a heart attack and on the trip to the hospital they brought back his heart, but he had been without oxygen for some time. He was on life support for six days, they said he had a lot of brain damage. Altho I wasnt in the country it was a family decision to pull the plug, my dad would have hated us if he had been kept alive. A vital, strong, proud man, it would have been cruel and devastating.
For myself, Im a donor, my family have no doubt what they do with me should I be in the position of not making a decision.

Lucy



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Profile   Post #: 216
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/5/2009 3:43:24 PM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

After spending time with you humans I believe firmly that abortion should be mandatory.


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Profile   Post #: 217
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/5/2009 3:43:29 PM   
Horne


Posts: 10
Joined: 5/11/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
yet I bet you that many men still run, unaccountable for their actions.


To the OP,
Abortion: I don't think there's a point where you could not consider it murder. I notice the pro-choice people avoid that part of the question. But I do support the right to a point.

Executions, yes .

Right to die should be a personal decision.

Pull the plug, yes.

As for the quote, where many men still run unaccountable for their actions, so do women who abort.  You're not defending women so much as attacking men and wanting the right to be as unaccountable as those you apparently hate.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 218
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/5/2009 3:46:57 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
 
The child didn't ask to be born: the parents both have to take responsibility, don't you agree?

Yes, I do agree. Very much so. But I thought we were talking about abortion. I feel that where there are two people who "have to take responsibility" for a decision, both of them ought to have a say in it. While every person, male or female, should have a right to control over their own body, the body of the child a woman is carrying isn't hers.

K.

 
 

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/5/2009 4:12:17 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 219
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/5/2009 4:17:59 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		It is a part of her tho....not separable until 25 ish weeks.
otherwise we go back to men forcing women to be pregnant because its "his pleasure" altho I know far more men who have run, than tried to plead with the woman to give birth


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Profile   Post #: 220
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