Acceptable Murder (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid



Message


StrangerThan -> Acceptable Murder (3/3/2009 9:39:50 AM)

I had this talk with my girl this morning. She works in the medical field and has both a more pragmatic and probably realistic view of life and death. And before I pose the questions, understand I have no real answers for anyone else. I think in terms of my personal choices and what they would be on a given subject.

So here they are.

Abortion. If you are a pro-choice person, is there a point where you view the process as murder or is it until birth, a choice?

Executions: Regardless of whether or not they deter criminals, do you think executing someone for the murder of another to be an acceptable form of punishment? If not, are there instances where it would be?

Right to die: How do you view right to die laws that exist for the terminally ill? Should it be a right in your view? Or do you believe that medical science has evolved to a point where one can die in peace without suffering? If you were the person making the decision, what would drive that process, fear? Economics? What?

Pulling the plug: One of the areas in which I've always found pro-lifers to be inconsistent in defending life is removing others from life support. Aside from Terri Shaivo (sp), it is a common practice done in hospitals every day that generates little if any uproar. But in a technical sense, it is taking the life of another person. A few months ago a story ran on the front page of Yahoo about a man who had been brain dead, or at least thought to be, for 17 years who suddenly woke and came back with most if not all of his mental faculties. If you were called upon to make that decision, do you feel it to be one that could haunt you?





kittinSol -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/3/2009 10:04:53 AM)

This will become the kind of thread where popcorn is needed. I can tell you that much.




BoiJen -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/3/2009 10:08:39 AM)

Abortion: There is no "pro-life" stance...it's anti-choice or pro-choice. Just to be clear. No on is thinking about forcing anyone to get an abortion. I am pro-choice and I am pro-choice to the point where a life is viable outside of the womb. Really viable...not where it's possible they might survive but where it's a definite thing. I also think at that point it's not a choice for the bio-mother to pick up her child and go, she should leave the child at the hospital for the local county services unit after all she was about to have an abortion and obviously has some issues. I think that mandatory counseling should be instituted to make sure that women have the support and care that they need around this issue and that if the bio-father is around and interested that he should be at counseling as well.

Executions: Pro-death penalty here as well. China has a lower crime rate than the US (http://www.photius.com/rankings/murder_rate_of_countries_2000-2004.html) with a strict policy around the death penalty. I don't think statistics involving "no reduced crime rate" because of the death penalty being a possibility reflect anything other than how many more stupid people live in that area than other places.

Right to die: People who are terminally ill should be allowed to die the death of their choice so long as they do not physically injure others in the process. The fact that we push individuals through incredibly difficult processes because of our fears around death is crazy to me.

Pulling the plug: Should be done as soon as possible when it is determined that the person will not survive without being plugged up to a machine for the rest of their lives and another medical procedure cannot alter their condition. There are people who die daily because some selfish person is clinging to a brain-dead body while the perfectly good organs inside rot. THAT is murder. These other situations are not. These other situations are not about intentionally killing someone for any malicious reason. Murder is about malicious intent.






sirsholly -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/3/2009 10:22:14 AM)

quote:

There are people who die daily because some selfish person is clinging to a brain-dead body while the perfectly good organs inside rot. THAT is murder.


i have worked almost my entire career in the transplant field, and this is a very sad way of looking at a situation that is heartbreaking to the surviving family members. What do you think should happen: a doctor barrels in to yank the plug, announcing that there are others who need the organs now?

Organ donation is a very personal, highly emotional decision, at times based on religious/spiritual beliefs. To say organs are "rotting" in a brain dead body is the very height of heartlessness.




RainydayNE -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/3/2009 10:24:28 AM)

toootally agreeing with sirsholly on that.
when my uncle died, while we're still reeling from losing him at the age of 38, here comes a doctor saying "hey we want to part out your loved one in a hurry. sign this form."
does the family not deserve ANY time to make peace with what happened to THEM?
heartlessness doesn't begin to describe it.




Sir Daddy -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/3/2009 10:30:45 AM)

I am PRO-DEATH all the way.  =)

Abortion: I am pro-choice.   My friend Charlotte's child was still born.  It was a perfectly healthy fetus until it died in her womb about 6 days before she was due.  Such is the ubiquitous uncertainty of life.

Now, if some criminal gunned her down 3 weeks before, he would've been charged with two murders - hers...and the "murder" of her unborn "baby".  He would have been charged that way because they could not possibly have known that her baby would not have lived to term.  He would be charged and likely convicted of a second murder on the assumption that the fetus would've survived to birth.

Think on that a bit.  Terrifying, isn't it?

While it's clear that abortion (at any time) ends human life, I do not think of it as murder...ever.   For the record: I think if there's the slightest chance that a fetus might survive outside the womb, a premature delivery should be attempted rather than just aborting it.  Give it a chance, ya' know?  One in every few thousands might actually make it.  =)

Executions:  They are quite obviously ineffective as a crime deterrent.  They are, however, very effective as a punishment.  Let's face it.  The only way to be certain that a person will never kill again is to remove any possibility of it happening.  The only way to do that is to terminate the murderer.  I have no problem with it.  And personally, I think capital punishment should be an option for some lesser crimes.  For instance, serial rapists and child molesters are statistically almost certain to return to their proclivities upon release from prison.  I have no problem putting a child molester to sleep. 

Right to die:  I think it is absurd that the government has assumed such authority over our very lives.  And personally, I think physically healthy people who want to die should be given any assistance they need...provided they at least have the common courtesy to fill out an organ doner card first.  =)

Pulling the plug:  The chances of someone recovering from brain death coma is astronomical.  I couldn't ask my loved ones to go through that on my behalf.  Pull the plug, scrap me for parts and burn the rest.  I would do the same for any loved one that clearly expressed a similar wish.  And I would sleep well that night.




slaveboyforyou -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/3/2009 10:33:34 AM)

quote:

Abortion. If you are a pro-choice person, is there a point where you view the process as murder or is it until birth, a choice?


I'm fine with abortion in the first trimester.  I don't like the idea of abortion in the second trimester, but it's been pointed out to me that many women don't realize they're pregnant until then.  So, I reluctantly am okay with it.  I don't see how you could make exceptions.  I'm absolutely not okay with abortion in the third trimester unless the mother could be injured, die, or the offspring will be severely deformed or handicapped.  The entire procedure surrounding late-term abortion is just morally unacceptable to me.  By then, a person should have made up their mind. 

quote:

Executions: Regardless of whether or not they deter criminals, do you think executing someone for the murder of another to be an acceptable form of punishment? If not, are there instances where it would be? 


It doesn't deter other criminals from committing crimes.  But it does permanently deter the condemned from it.  I only support the death penalty for the most heinous crimes.  Vicious, cruel, and cold-blooded murderers deserve to die.  I know it's retribution, but I'm fine with that.  Retribution provides a psychologically satisfactory conclusion for the community. 

quote:

Right to die: How do you view right to die laws that exist for the terminally ill? Should it be a right in your view? Or do you believe that medical science has evolved to a point where one can die in peace without suffering? If you were the person making the decision, what would drive that process, fear? Economics? What? 


I have never really developed a strong opinion on this one way or another.  If a terminally ill person wants to avoid suffering by ending their life, I understand that.  But I don't want to wake up in a world one day where people are walking into suicide centers because they are depressed over an unrequitted love or the death of their beloved poodle.  So I'm kind of on the fence.  I will say this....Dr. Kevorkian was a creepy SOB.  I couldn't bring myself to support his near-fanatical insistence on performing assisted suicides. 

quote:

Pulling the plug: One of the areas in which I've always found pro-lifers to be inconsistent in defending life is removing others from life support. Aside from Terri Shaivo (sp), it is a common practice done in hospitals every day that generates little if any uproar. But in a technical sense, it is taking the life of another person. A few months ago a story ran on the front page of Yahoo about a man who had been brain dead, or at least thought to be, for 17 years who suddenly woke and came back with most if not all of his mental faculties. If you were called upon to make that decision, do you feel it to be one that could haunt you? 


People really need to make living wills and inform more than one person about them.  I don't see the point in maintaining someone that is in a vegetative state.  Now that being said, I felt genuine sympathy for Terry Schiavo's parents.  I understood they didn't want to let go of their daughter.  I don't know about the husband; he seemed a little too cold about the whole thing.  But I don't know him, so I won't judge.  I think it should be up to the family.  I wouldn't want to make the decision, but I would if necessary.  If there doesn't appear to be any chance of recovery, than I could do it. 




kittinSol -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/3/2009 10:34:56 AM)

I am pro-choice; I am radically, passionately against the death penalty; I do not believe in 'a right to die', but would support anybody's right to be assisted in committing suicide were they suffering terribly (look to the Netherlands for an example of how it can be done legally); and 'pulling the plug' is such a complex issue, so dependent on personal circumstances, I cannot personally comment in a general manner.

People who are in favour of the death penalty but who oppose abortion on the grounds that life is sacred puzzle me the most.




sirsholly -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/3/2009 10:37:21 AM)

quote:

I think it should be up to the family. I wouldn't want to make the decision, but I would if necessary. If there doesn't appear to be any chance of recovery, than I could do it.


a little planning, in the form of both an organ donation card and a living will, can take a HUGE burden off the family members in cases such as these




rubberpet -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/3/2009 10:39:05 AM)

Far be it from me to steer away from a little controversy.  I like to stir the pot a little.
 
Abortion:  I am pro-choice up to a point.  If you get knocked up because you sleep with every guy you meet, then it's your penalty to pay for being such a careless slut.  The only instance I believe an abortion should be made is in the case of rape, incest, or if the birth would result in the death of either the baby or the mother.
 
Executions:  Not only am I pro-death penalty, I believe that executions should be made public again.  I think that lethal injection shows too much compassion and mercy to those who showed no mercy to their victims.  Bring back hangings, the electric chair, and the gas chamber and let the victim's family flip the switch if they choose to.  I firmly believe that executions should be mandatory and only occur upon convictions of first and second degree murder and sexual assault of a child.  (Please, no hate mail because of my view.  It is my personal view.  I don't expect a lot of people to share my view and I'm not looking to start a ranting and raving debate about it.)
 
Right to die:  I believe a person should have the right to choose whether they want to die in the case of an inoperable, terminal illness.  It's their life, they should be given the choice on what they want to do with it.  I don't think the law should dictate whether or not I choose to end my life because of a terminal condition.
 
Pull the plug:  I believe that it is OK to pull the plug on someone who has absolutely no chance of any recovery.  I would rather have the plug pulled on me than to live the rest of my days as a vegatable.  A person should not be subjected to that sort of life.




Sir Daddy -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/3/2009 10:43:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen
China has a lower crime rate than the US


Don't credit their executions for China's lower crime rate.  That lower rate is due to the fact that there exists no presumption of innocence in China.  In fact, it is the exact opposite. Accused criminals are presumed guilty.  The burden of proof does not fall on the state...but on the accused.  Instead of it being up to the state to prove a suspect guilty, it is up to the accused to prove their innocence. 

with such a biased system, it is no surprise that people go out of their way to never even be accused of a crime...because conviction is almost a certainty. 

Just a little food for thought.  =)




rulemylife -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/3/2009 10:45:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan


But in a technical sense, it is taking the life of another person. A few months ago a story ran on the front page of Yahoo about a man who had been brain dead, or at least thought to be, for 17 years who suddenly woke and came back with most if not all of his mental faculties. If you were called upon to make that decision, do you feel it to be one that could haunt you?


I've had to make that decision.

There is a big difference between someone in a coma and someone who is being kept alive by the use of machines when their body will no longer function without them.




rulemylife -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/3/2009 10:51:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RainydayNE

toootally agreeing with sirsholly on that.
when my uncle died, while we're still reeling from losing him at the age of 38, here comes a doctor saying "hey we want to part out your loved one in a hurry. sign this form."
does the family not deserve ANY time to make peace with what happened to THEM?
heartlessness doesn't begin to describe it.


If I were the person who died, I would want to have the doctors remove whatever they can use to help someone else.

It's on my driver's license as an organ donor and also in my living will.

Edited to add that time is imperative when doing organ transplants, they were not being heartless, only realistic.




sirsholly -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/3/2009 10:51:03 AM)

quote:

few months ago a story ran on the front page of Yahoo about a man who had been brain dead, or at least thought to be, for 17 years who suddenly woke and came back with most if not all of his mental faculties. If you were called upon to make that decision, do you feel it to be one that could haunt you?
brain death means just that...no brain function. Without the brain, the body itself will not function and must be kept alive via artificial process.
The person you are refering to was in a coma




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/3/2009 10:59:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan



Abortion. If you are a pro-choice person, is there a point where you view the process as murder or is it until birth, a choice?


I'm not touching that one. That's the one that's probably going to get  the thread burned down, and I'll let others gather the wood.



quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan
Executions: Regardless of whether or not they deter criminals, do you think executing someone for the murder of another to be an acceptable form of punishment? If not, are there instances where it would be?


No, and no.


quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan
Right to die: How do you view right to die laws that exist for the terminally ill? Should it be a right in your view? Or do you believe that medical science has evolved to a point where one can die in peace without suffering? If you were the person making the decision, what would drive that process, fear? Economics? What?

Pulling the plug: One of the areas in which I've always found pro-lifers to be inconsistent in defending life is removing others from life support. Aside from Terri Shaivo (sp), it is a common practice done in hospitals every day that generates little if any uproar. But in a technical sense, it is taking the life of another person. A few months ago a story ran on the front page of Yahoo about a man who had been brain dead, or at least thought to be, for 17 years who suddenly woke and came back with most if not all of his mental faculties. If you were called upon to make that decision, do you feel it to be one that could haunt you?




I'll take these two as one question, because it's too hard for me to separate them in my mind right now.

In a sense, I was called upon to make that decision, a few months ago when I had to help my father make the decision to end his own life. It was by far the hardest thing  I've ever had to do (and hopefully the hardest thing I ever will have to do), and the second  most horrible experience I've ever gone through, but if i had to go back and make that decision again I would make the exact same decision without a moment's hesitation.

He fell and broke his hip on a Saturday, and underwent surgery that night. Late Sunday night, he suddenly developed pneumonia, and when the hospital called me at 5:30 Monday morning, there was little hope he would survive. I got there around mid-day on Monday, and from Tuesday afternoon until Friday morning, never left his side. He knew his situation, was fully aware of exactly where he stood every minute of the process, and I had a talk with him Monday night. I told him I was there to help him in any way he needed, and support him in  whatever decision he made. I said that if he decided he wanted to fight, I was behind him 110% every step of the way; but if the time came that he decided he didn't want to fight anymore, I'd support him 110% in that, as well. Whatever he decided, I was behind him all the way, and  I was going to help him through it one way or the other.

He fought until  there was literally nothing left to fight with. From Tuesday afternoon through Friday morning, he never slept a wink. He couldn't. He had to fight like hell to suck in every ragged breath, as though he was trying to breathe through concrete. If he'd fallen asleep, he'd have died, and he knew it. So I didn't sleep either. I stayed next to him, hanging on every breath, listening for the most subtle signs of even the slightest changes, so that  I could alert the nurses and the respiratory therapists. I told him not to feel badly about it; i said the way I looked at it, he'd finally figured out a way to get even with me for all the nights he'd stayed up until dawn wondering whether I was going to bring the car home in one piece. We stayed up together, fighting together, until finally, at around 3 AM on Friday, his breathing changed in such a way that I knew he'd lost. I could hear it; he had  nothing left. He just couldn't suck air through it anymore.

I met with the nurses and the respiratory therapists, and then asked them for a moment alone with him so i could be the one to tell him. I held his hand, told him where things stood, and asked him if he thought he was ready. He thanked me for what I'd done, and said he figured he finally was. At 7:30, when the doctor came in, he ordered a morphine-atavan drip, and he slipped into unconciousness within seconds. He died shortly thereafter, on his own terms. He knew he'd fought heroically, against impossible odds, that he'd given it everything he possibly could have given, and that there was just nothing left to do. That's what he needed to know. Once he knew that, he was able to let go.

The point of all that? It's pretty simple. I said earlier that helping him make the decision to let go was the second-most horrible thing I've ever had to experience; the one thing that was more horrible than that was watching him go through what he had to go through to get to that point. Every single minute for 2 and a half days, every breath he tried to take. The only thing in the world that's harder than watching someone you love go through that, harder than holding their hand and encouraging them to keep fighting, is silently wishing they would just die as quickly as possible. No human being should have to go through what he went through if they make the decision they would prefer to just let go. I thank god every single day since then that he had a doctor, and a hospital, who understood what the right thing to do was,  and who were prepared and willing to do it. There are other doctors in this country, and other hospitals, who would not have let that happen. Then it would have been up to me to make it happen. Nobody should ever have have to go through that if they don't want to, and no loved one should ever have to make the choices I would have had to make if his medical team hadn't been willing to make them. Not in a civilized society.




slaveboyforyou -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/3/2009 11:00:45 AM)

quote:

It's on my driver's license as an organ donor and also in my living will.


I'm not an organ donar on my DL, and I refuse to be.  I'm probably a little paranoid, but I want the medical staff concentrating on saving my life, not on saving my organs.  For medical professionals:  PLEASE don't take offense; it's nothing personal.  I've just heard stories of incidents like that occurring. 

Now I have expressed to my family that if I'm brain dead, than by all means let me go.  I've also told them I'm okay with my organs being donated after I'm dead for sure. 




kittinSol -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/3/2009 11:01:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rubberpet
I don't expect a lot of people to share my view and I'm not looking to start a ranting and raving debate about it.


So you just want to make a statement and not have anyone comment on it? Because I'll be honest: after I read your post, my fingers itched to type a lengthy reply [&:] .




StrangerThan -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/3/2009 11:06:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

few months ago a story ran on the front page of Yahoo about a man who had been brain dead, or at least thought to be, for 17 years who suddenly woke and came back with most if not all of his mental faculties. If you were called upon to make that decision, do you feel it to be one that could haunt you?
brain death means just that...no brain function. Without the brain, the body itself will not function and must be kept alive via artificial process.
The person you are refering to was in a coma



Ok, my bad. I was working from memory.

And my views since I'm asking everyone else theirs.

Abortion: I'm pro-choice to a point, that point being somewhere along the line of where the fetus becomes viable outside the womb. Thereafter it is by default murder in my view.

Executions: Support them. I agree with the stance that regardless of whether or not they deter future criminals, they certainly deter the current one.

Right to die: For terminally ill, yes. I believe that choice should exist. I find it hideous and immoral to insist someone must suffer because I might think it wrong they choose to die. I see little difference between a living will stating that I do not want life support and saying I know I'm going to die. I prefer it be a manner of my choosing rather than spaced out on morphine or some other drug while family members walk around waiting for me to draw that last breath. I'm with slaveboy on most of it.

Pulling the plug: yes, I could and honestly hope I'm never in that situation unless I know for certain the person's wishes.





slaveboy291 -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/3/2009 11:06:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

It's on my driver's license as an organ donor and also in my living will.


I'm not an organ donar on my DL, and I refuse to be.  I'm probably a little paranoid, but I want the medical staff concentrating on saving my life, not on saving my organs.  For medical professionals:  PLEASE don't take offense; it's nothing personal.  I've just heard stories of incidents like that occurring. 

Now I have expressed to my family that if I'm brain dead, than by all means let me go.  I've also told them I'm okay with my organs being donated after I'm dead for sure. 



A little paranoid are we?  Afraid you might wake up in a bathtub with a big scar down your back?




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/3/2009 11:09:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rubberpet

Far be it from me to steer away from a little controversy.  I like to stir the pot a little....
 
Executions:  Not only am I pro-death penalty, I believe that executions should be made public again.  I think that lethal injection shows too much compassion and mercy to those who showed no mercy to their victims.  Bring back hangings, the electric chair, and the gas chamber and let the victim's family flip the switch if they choose to.  I firmly believe that executions should be mandatory and only occur upon convictions of first and second degree murder and sexual assault of a child.


Ah. So you believe in a replacing our justice system with one that is based upon the  principles of tribal vengeance. Got it.



quote:

ORIGINAL: rubberpet
 (Please, no hate mail because of my view.  It is my personal view.  I don't expect a lot of people to share my view and I'm not looking to start a ranting and raving debate about it.)



Make up your mind. You brag about how much you like to stir the pot, but you don't want people to debate you? Then don't stir the pot.




Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875