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Phoenix plagued by drug cartel kidnappings - 3/3/2009 3:19:46 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		The escalating violence between the Mexican government and the drug cartels is having a definate impact on this side of the border.  Folks, please be careful if you are traveling down to Mexico.  And any discussion about our national defense needs to examine this situation and not just the ones in the Middle East.



"U.S. rattled as Mexico drug war bleeds over border"

Monday, March 2, 2009
By Tim Gaynor

"PHOENIX (Reuters) - Hit men dressed in fake police tactical gear burst into a home in Phoenix, rake it with gunfire and execute a man.

Armed kidnappers snatch victims from cars and even a local shopping mall across the Phoenix valley for ransom, turning the sun-baked city into the "kidnap capital" of the United States.

Violence of this kind is common in Mexico where drug cartel abductions and executions are a daily feature of a raging drug war that claimed 6,000 lives south of the border last year.

But U.S. authorities now fear that violent crime is beginning to bleed over the porous Mexico border and take hold here."

Break
 
"Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano -- a former Arizona governor -- told a Congressional hearing last week she was focused on curbing the southbound traffic in guns that are being used to arm the violent cartels.

In a measure of that commitment, a Phoenix gun dealer goes on trial next week on charges he sold hundreds of weapons, including AK-47 assault rifles, to smugglers knowing they would send them to a powerful cartel in Sinaloa state on Mexico's Pacific coast.

As the spiraling drug violence shakes Mexican cities and towns along the U.S. border, U.S. Senate lawmakers announced last week they would hold two hearings to assess the ability of U.S. security forces to deal with the rise in crime on the U.S. side."

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE5201MX20090302?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0

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RE: Phoenix plagued by drug cartel kidnappings - 3/3/2009 4:27:48 PM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		President Obama needs to put Troops along that Mexican border.
I think the drug cartels are "testing" his resolve.

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RE: Phoenix plagued by drug cartel kidnappings - 3/3/2009 4:39:48 PM   
outlier


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Joined: 10/22/2005
Status: offline 		Vendaval,

Thank you for posting this. This part caught my attention:

"The fight in Mexico is about domination of the smuggling corridors and those corridors
don't stop at the border," Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard said.

Execution style murders, violent home invasions, and a spiraling kidnap rate in Phoenix
-- where police reported an average of one abduction a day last year linked to Mexican crime --
are not the only examples along the border.

In southern California, police have investigated cases of Americans abducted by armed groups
tied to the Tijuana drug trade. One involved a businesswoman and her teenage daughter snatched
in San Diego last year and held to ransom south of the border.

The boarder is simply ceasing to exist. This is the sort
of thing some people have been campaigning about for years.

Basically the question is (has been)
"Where will it stop if we don't enforce our boarder?

I fear this is part of a very ugly answer.

Outlier

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RE: Phoenix plagued by drug cartel kidnappings - 3/3/2009 4:40:14 PM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		Good to have you commenting on this one, Popeye.

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RE: Phoenix plagued by drug cartel kidnappings - 3/3/2009 10:58:07 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		       I don't believe the government in Mexico is capable of dealing with the problem as things are.  If we were to suddenly cut off the drug funding of the cartels, I do think that might give them a fighting chance.

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RE: Phoenix plagued by drug cartel kidnappings - 3/3/2009 10:59:01 PM   
Vendaval


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Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		What is the best way to cut off their funding?

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"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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RE: Phoenix plagued by drug cartel kidnappings - 3/3/2009 11:05:20 PM   
Honsoku


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

What is the best way to cut off their funding?


Legalize the product. It won't actually cut off the funding, but the price will crash along with the profits. The violence will dissipate as the extreme profit and illegal nature of the operation go away. It is our own "war on drugs" that feeds the cartels.

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RE: Phoenix plagued by drug cartel kidnappings - 3/3/2009 11:18:45 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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quote:

President Obama needs to put Troops along that Mexican border.
I think the drug cartels are "testing" his resolve. 


Popeye, you were in the Coast Guard if I remember.  Let me ask you something; I had this idea years ago.  Why can't the Border Patrol be more military structured like the Coast Guard?  We could recruit 18 year olds right out of high school for the Border Patrol.  Currently it's just a police force, and it takes awhile to train them.  I don't see why the Border Patrol should be any more hard to train for than the Coast Guard.  Both guard the borders, just on different fronts.  We could offer Border Patrol recruits the same packages other branches of the military get, and we'd increase our manpower on the borders for less cost.  I've never understood why the Border Patrol and the Coast Guard are structured so differently, when they have very similar responsibilities.  Give us your expertise.  Do you think that would help?

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RE: Phoenix plagued by drug cartel kidnappings - 3/3/2009 11:21:37 PM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		Honsoku - Do you mean legalize all drugs or only certain ones?
 
slaveboy - That is a very good point to consider.

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RE: Phoenix plagued by drug cartel kidnappings - 3/3/2009 11:32:24 PM   
Honsoku


Posts: 422
Joined: 6/26/2007
Status: offline 		The more you legalize, the greater the dent you will put into the profitability of the drug trade. Personally, I'd say legalize and regulate all of the narcotics. Hell, they were all legal less than 100 years ago (if I recall correctly). Though no one in power has the political wherewithal to even mention such an idea.

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RE: Phoenix plagued by drug cartel kidnappings - 3/3/2009 11:37:00 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Honsoku


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

What is the best way to cut off their funding?


Legalize the product. It won't actually cut off the funding, but the price will crash along with the profits. The violence will dissipate as the extreme profit and illegal nature of the operation go away. It is our own "war on drugs" that feeds the cartels.
Exactly right.


Augustus Owsley Stanley III writes:
" In the effort to "control" drug use, the approach taken on an international scale has been to prohibit even the use and possession of many materials. This model is the "American" one. That this approach is a failure has been widely noted by many prominent and even conservative commentators. The use of substances which alter in various ways the conciousness of man, is an extremely ancient and established practice, in spite of the belief of those who feel their moral views are the ones which should be imposed on all humanity. The use of draconian legal laws as deterrents, to attempt to eliminate ("control") drug use has already led to the widespread development of a powerful and dangerous black market, and in fact, any further movement in this direction will have the following inevitable results:


1. The use and distribution of drugs of all kinds will increase in direct relation to the increase in penalties. The penalties represent the "degree of risk" to the supplier.

2. The price on the street will also increase, removing ever larger amounts of money from the legitimate economy.

3. The number of dealers on the street will increase, especially those targeting the most vulnerable of our society- in particular, children.

4. Dangerous infectious diseases such as AIDS and hepatitis will increase, perhaps to epidemic proportions. At the same time, many more users will die of overdoses and blood infections due to the unknown purity and concentration of the drugs as furnished.

5. Crimes will increase, especially property crimes like burglary and armed robbery.

6. The increased flow of money into the criminal element will increase the likelihood of police corruption to the point where it will become the norm.

7. All political systems will be placed under great corrupting influence as the elements profiting from the money-for--nothing drug trade use their funds to buy influence to maintain the level of prohibition.

8. Our systems of taxation, already stretched to the limit to provide services will be threatened with collapse in the attempt to imprison all the people who will be convicted and require incarceration.

9. The lure of "easy money" will entice many perfectly ordinary citizens to become criminal cultivators in order to make ends meet (interested persons are urged to examine the American Broadcast Company News Special "Pot of Gold", Peter Jennings, reporter, on marijuana cultivation in the USA. Aired on 13 March 1997. and available on video from the ABC).


10. The money paid for drugs is not based on the real value of the drugs themselves, but is based on the risk of delivery, which in turn is the result only of the law. This presents us with an economic crisis of enormous impact, wherein a person with no skills, experience or education can have an income (tax-exempt), greater than the highest paid individual in the entire industrial world. Such a situation destroys the mutually agreed upon basis of modern society, which is the assumption that a person is rewarded, or remunerated in direct relation to their contribution to the economic whole."
http://www.thebear.org/essays.html

It's been a couple years since I communicated with Bear. he should know about black markets. I used to communicate with Pickard, too.

It's Prohibition which creates the crime, not the pot.

< Message edited by Hippiekinkster -- 3/3/2009 11:53:46 PM >

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RE: Phoenix plagued by drug cartel kidnappings - 3/4/2009 3:26:34 AM   
corysub


Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I agree that we should put troops on our border in camps instead of training camps instead of in states hundreds of miles away.  It would serve a few objectives in that new recruits would be better trained in desert warfare, it would be a real time mission not just a "drill", and it would not increase the costs since their expense would have to be paid for whereever they were based.

I also think that we should not ship busloads of people back...I'm not talking about woman and children, but healthy men should be made to work off the cost of their incarceration for some period of time working for the authorities.  If we can have prisoners in America working in small manufacturing facilities, cleaning the roads, tending the prison farm, etc...why would it be unfair to put illegals to work as well, and than send them home. 
Incarceration would also give time for our authorites to check people out and possibly give us the opportunity to discover who among them, although a very small percentage I am sure, are working for the cartels or have other intentions than coming into the country seeking work.

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RE: Phoenix plagued by drug cartel kidnappings - 3/4/2009 4:28:08 AM   
daddysliloneds


Posts: 1351
Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline 		people have been getting wasted over drug deals gone bad for forever now; the people getting kidnapped and killed aren't your everyday mom and pop citizens, they are involved in some way or another, and while i'm not saying they deserve to get wasted, i don't think it's the governments job to protect them...

in my opinion, the only reason why it's becoming such a big deal, in regards to the news, is because it has to do with the border and mexicans, and we all know how popular that talk has been in politics.

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RE: Phoenix plagued by drug cartel kidnappings - 3/4/2009 6:45:20 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		     Honsoku nailed what I was referring to, Ven.  Legalize the drug trade.  Rip those billions of dollars right back out of the cartels' hands. 

     Trying to lock down the border with troops would only infect our own military with the corruption that has made Mexico's useless.

      

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RE: Phoenix plagued by drug cartel kidnappings - 3/4/2009 7:13:16 AM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline 		Ugh. My nieces group of friends all decided to go to Mexico for spring break, she is the only one that isn't going. I can't imagine being a parent and okaying that trip! These aren't college students, they're all high school seniors.

It makes me sad to look at a world map and see more places with an X that I can't travel to for safety reasons.

Again it makes me wonder what the ramifications would be if the US legalized (or decriminalized, sorry I can never remember the proper term) marijuana, taking away at least part of the drug smuggling problem. Of course there is so much more to it, other drugs and the worst of all.. human smuggling.

It feels like we are spread so thinly right now, I don't know if that is true or just my feeling of gloom today. So many 'hot spots' throughout the world that need attention, not just attention from the US but attention from everyone. Places that get mentioned.. but feel forgotten. Places where genocide isn't history but is instead current daily life. One person can't make a significant difference and I don't know if anything/one can.

Argh. This is a topic that I brood about quietly. So many things involved, corruption always seems to be one of the cornerstones. Drug cartels that seem to have permission because they cannot be stood against by individuals.


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RE: Phoenix plagued by drug cartel kidnappings - 3/4/2009 10:03:30 AM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Did you read the whole article?  The violence is not contained to people within the drug trade.  People are being kidnapped simply for ransom and American tourists make for good targets. 


quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysliloneds
people have been getting wasted over drug deals gone bad for forever now; the people getting kidnapped and killed aren't your everyday mom and pop citizens, they are involved in some way or another, and while i'm not saying they deserve to get wasted, i don't think it's the governments job to protect them...


_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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RE: Phoenix plagued by drug cartel kidnappings - 3/4/2009 10:25:44 AM   
MissEnchanted


Posts: 510
Status: offline
quote:

the people getting kidnapped and killed aren't your everyday mom and pop citizens, they are involved in some way or another, and while i'm not saying they deserve to get wasted, i don't think it's the governments job to protect them...


Involved? As in being a part of the group that is trying to take the drug lords down? You bet they're involved and need help.
Innocent citizens are also being  kidnapped. Big money in kidnapping.

This isn't just about our borders and has been brewing for decades. Now it is a pot boiling over and we are all being effected by it.
Many of these drug dealers now have their 'buddies' inside the Government in the US, in CA, throughout the DA's office,

Mexican gangs are rampant and have moved into locations all across the US.

We are in deep doo-doo now.....

I think: Legalize

Nothing else will cure this imo.





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RE: Phoenix plagued by drug cartel kidnappings - 3/4/2009 10:48:11 AM   
UncleNasty


Posts: 1108
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline 		Criminals, police forces, DEA, prisons, courts systems, prosecutors, private attorneys, etc. Too many people are making money on the cash cow of "the war on drugs" for me to believe any sanity will applied in the nature of decriminalization or legalization,  in spite of the wisdom involved in doing exactly that.

Uncle Nasty

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RE: Phoenix plagued by drug cartel kidnappings - 3/4/2009 11:08:48 AM   
Steponme73


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Joined: 11/9/2007
Status: offline 		There is no drug war!  There are no kidnappings, murder or other illegal activites taking place on this side of the border.  It is all on the other side of the border.  Or at least that is what your government and the Home Land Security Secretary says...and you know your president and his staff would not lie to the people....After all, he is going to have a transparent administration.

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RE: Phoenix plagued by drug cartel kidnappings - 3/4/2009 3:39:14 PM   
outlier


Posts: 1111
Joined: 10/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Steponme73

There is no drug war! There are no kidnappings, murder or other illegal activites taking place on this side of the border. It is all on the other side of the border. Or at least that is what your government and the Home Land Security Secretary says...and you know your president and his staff would not lie to the people....After all, he is going to have a transparent administrat
emphasis added

I must of missed where The HomeLand Security Secretary
and/or the government said that.

Could you please post a link with the quote. Thank you.

Outlier

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Worth the time, the thought - or rather, the thoughtfulness - and, often,
the waiting." Pete Seeger

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