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Use of terminology - 3/4/2009 7:33:20 PM

MstrTiger

Posts: 417
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From: UK
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Inspired by someone who tried to take over a thread I started and turn it into a bitching session over the common usage of one word I have decided to ask people their thoughts on the practical use of terminology and whether people think they should stick to absolutely rigid definitions or whether people are of the opinion that they can use terms with more fluidity of meaning. Do you make allowances when chatting online given that there are people from all over the world posting messages on these boards? And how does your reaction to the way people use terminology differ when you are chatting to people you meet in your own community.

I just want to further exaggerate the point that this thread is not about the incorrect usage of specific terms it is about the difference between common usage and dictionary definitions and how people react to the ways words are used commonly in different communities and also I guess how they are defined in different dictionaries.

Post #: 1

RE: Use of terminology - 3/4/2009 7:47:32 PM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
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Communication has almost nothing to do with what I say. It has everything to do with what other people hear when I talk. Anyone who takes the position that a word means exactly one thing, all the time, is more interested in being superior to others than in connecting to others.

Suppose one poster starts a thread and it gets largely derailed. That poster might try to phrase opening posts differently next time, to maximize chances that the responses would be productive. Suppose another poster derails a thread through pseudointellectual insistence that a word cannot have multiple meanings. That poster might choose to contribute something of value in the future.

I'm here for discussions of real life.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to MstrTiger)

Post #: 2

RE: Use of terminology - 3/4/2009 7:48:45 PM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrTiger

Inspired by someone who tried to take over a thread I started and turn it into a bitching session over the common usage of one word I have decided to ask people their thoughts on the practical use of terminology and whether people think they should stick to absolutely rigid definitions or whether people are of the opinion that they can use terms with more fluidity of meaning. Do you make allowances when chatting online given that there are people from all over the world posting messages on these boards? And how does your reaction to the way people use terminology differ when you are chatting to people you meet in your own community.

I just want to further exaggerate the point that this thread is not about the incorrect usage of specific terms it is about the difference between common usage and dictionary definitions and how people react to the ways words are used commonly in different communities and also I guess how they are defined in different dictionaries.

I don't know about anyone else but the above post fits my definition of passive-aggressive.
ETA: Either choose to debate it with that person, or ignore them. Don't drag other people into the middle of your argument!

< Message edited by catize -- 3/4/2009 7:58:33 PM >

_____________________________

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Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to MstrTiger)

Post #: 3

RE: Use of terminology - 3/4/2009 7:51:40 PM

pinkwind

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Joined: 1/9/2005
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Look at any dictionary and there are usually several definitions for every word. There are no hard and fast rules on the definition and usage of words, and any arguments over words are just semantic pissing contests.

i make allowances all the time for folk who may have a different definition of a word or phrase i use, try to be as unambiguous as possible when communicating, and yet still there are people who don't agree on terminology. It's just the way it is.

When someone insists that their definition or use of a word is the only true one i just agree to differ and carry on using the word in the way i always have. Some people think they are the founts of all knowledge, legends in their own lunchtimes where words are concerned, and nothing is ever going to change them, so i don't try.

If we didn't make obvious allowances for the use of words, and the varying definitions behind them there would be no point in trying for energetic and useful debate.

_____________________________

pink...
Master Andy's emotion...

From Each According To His Abilities, To Each According To His Needs.

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Post #: 4

RE: Use of terminology - 3/4/2009 7:55:19 PM

CatdeMedici

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and this differs from regular life, how?

< Message edited by CatdeMedici -- 3/4/2009 7:57:42 PM >

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"Let's see-whips, dips, chains, chips, yep sounds like a party to Me!"

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Post #: 5

RE: Use of terminology - 3/4/2009 8:00:26 PM

Vendaval

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It is important to remember the difference between content and context. And do keep in mind that we have posters from around the world who speak various dialects of English or for whom English is a secondary language.

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"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

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(in reply to MstrTiger)

Post #: 6

RE: Use of terminology - 3/4/2009 8:08:23 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
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There are certain terms within BDSM that people are going to argue the definition of the words. This is how we tend to get ourselves in trouble around here (meaning CM) in those lovely debates such as Master or Dominant and submissive rather than slave. Personally, I do happen to have some rather rigid definitions for those types of terms for Myself. In other words, I don't have an issue if you have a different definition (I'll probably debate it with you) than Mine, it's not a problem. At the same time, you're probably not going to change Mine. Not unless you've got something really good that has the ability to prove wrong a lot of the things I've learned.

Since I've been involved in BDSM in more than one geographic location, I understand that some terms vary from place to place. I'm sure that's even more poignant from country to country. I think it was just last week that someone from the UK had to tell Me what a particular word meant that I'd been seeing pop up all over the boards. It wasn't kink related, but I hadn't taken the time to look it up.

The point of this is, I find it a lot easier to know what a particular word means to someone else and share My definition with them. It just makes My life easier.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 7

RE: Use of terminology - 3/4/2009 8:16:51 PM

MarcEsadrian

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Joined: 8/24/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrTiger

Do you make allowances when chatting online given that there are people from all over the world posting messages on these boards? And how does your reaction to the way people use terminology differ when you are chatting to people you meet in your own community.

I just want to further exaggerate the point that this thread is not about the incorrect usage of specific terms it is about the difference between common usage and dictionary definitions and how people react to the ways words are used commonly in different communities and also I guess how they are defined in different dictionaries.

Regarding terminology, I tend to be a literalist and textualist of what someone is expressing in words, and often times the fault of the miscommunication or "nit" lies with the rigidity in which I hold words to their actual definitions. For example—and the most classic example in a forum like this, I know—the word "slave" actually means slave to me, believe it or not. It is not an interchangeable synonym for bottom, play partner, lover, fiancé etc. I see the words Master and Mistress in the same vein. To me, these words are heavy words that extend beyond the caricatures of BDSM; they are not creative pseudonyms for role play, to be put on or taken off like a cheap teddy from Frederick's of Hollywood.

Of course, this is due to the credence I give to words. I'm fully aware others will in fact use these terms more in the spirit of fantasy fulfillment and adult psychodrama—and there's nothing wrong with that either, but mixing the literalists with the fantasists can from time to time cause a lot of confusion, misinterpretation and downright annoyance. I think anyone who is aware of the myriad ways words, phrases or ideas can be parsed and employed will be mindful of this, and work out in their own mind where they stand on the words and phrases and concepts before employing them. Chances are good that if you are sensitive to the actual meaning of words, you'll choose your words wisely and thus express yourself more accurately. If you're a "words can mean anything I want them to" sort of person, it's best to be up front about that, too.

(in reply to MstrTiger)

Post #: 8

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 2:33:03 AM

MG4Apuppygirl

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Joined: 1/12/2007
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One can only imagine that you could elude to the terms Discipline and Punishment for example. Then you would have to decide if you part of the BPSM scene or the BDSM scene.

(in reply to MarcEsadrian)

Post #: 9

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 3:04:49 AM

zero69u2

Posts: 107
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline

This is kinda interesting. terminology situation i had. with Pinning and Clamping..
In the old days "Pinning" was a term submissives used to refer to clothespinning nipples.
In the new terminology though Pinning is associated with Needle Play. and Breast Clamping is term inclusive for nipple clamps and clothes pins.

More Confusing Terminology..
Coke, Pepsi, Soda, Pop, Shoodie, Cola, Coca-Cola,Dr.Pepper ---- depending on where your at in the USA.. or Europe.. Everyone has a different word for Soda.

Slave,Submissive,Bottom,Top,Dominant, Dominatrix,Mistress,Master, Free Woman, Kajira, Kaja, Gor Master, Frankfurter whatever it goes on and on.----( interchangeable titles with some latitudes and subtle differences. everyone in world has their own opinions on what each means and the variants of these.)

Even English Terms elude Americans on other side of the pond. As we butcher our common Language.
the word aluminum is another good one.. How a Englishman says aluminum sounds totally different then the american prounceation of the word.

(in reply to MG4Apuppygirl)

Post #: 10

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 3:26:22 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

Inspired by someone who tried to take over a thread I started and turn it into a bitching session over the common usage of one word I have decided to ask people their thoughts on the practical use of terminology and whether people think they should stick to absolutely rigid definitions or whether people are of the opinion that they can use terms with more fluidity of meaning.

I believe that the world would be cool if people didn't pigeon hole everything. Lack of flexibility is pretty unproductive.

quote:

Do you make allowances when chatting online given that there are people from all over the world posting messages on these boards?

Yes, to a certain extent. Not only that, I also consider other issues. Dyslexia, innocence, possible depression, etc and whether the poster has a proven track record (positive or negative) which you can work with. I also take into account that you cannot see the person face, hand gestures or other visable expressions.

quote:

And how does your reaction to the way people use terminology differ when you are chatting to people you meet in your own community.

Unlike redmagic, I do not believe that communication has nothing to do with what I say. To me, that is a cop out. I also do not believe it rests only on what other people perceive. If I want to make myself clear and for others to understand what I am saying, it is up to me to communicate in a way that is cool for myself and for those I am talking to. The responsibility of communication is with all parties. Depending where you are, and who you are with, you communicate the best way you can in that environment. However, like redmagic I do agree that if a person who takes the position that a word means exactly one thing, all the time, that they are more interested in being superior to others than in connecting to others. I would expand on the that even more that some are also trying to fit in with a certain group or standard. On the expanded point, I don't see anything negative in that as such unless it is done purely for external affirmation or the exclusion of others.

quote:

I just want to further exaggerate the point that this thread is not about the incorrect usage of specific terms it is about the difference between common usage and dictionary definitions and how people react to the ways words are used commonly in different communities and also I guess how they are defined in different dictionaries.

I love words. I have a word fetish. To the extent that it can make my life and the way I live it, alter and be touched by it, if it is not controlled. But I also understand that words evolve and are not rigid. Denying that fact is naive and also pretty insulting to language and the ability of humans as a whole. It also denies the existance of anothers cultures or ethics. You don't have to accept it and make it your own to understand and be respectful of it.

But many people are lazy. Why bother expressing what you mean with visuals or touch or a whole group of words, when you can let just one narrow word do all the work for you? Three little words are meaningless without expansion and the follow through.

I pretty much believe being into fluidity rocks. Without it, I would not have fantastic friends, a solid, loving personal relationship and have such a great life. I am also rigid in my own personal beliefs and ethics, but not to the extent that I push it onto others and ignore the fact that some people are not - by gosh shock/horror - different to me. There is nothing bad about being a pedant until you start excluding people or making them look stupid on purpose.

the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 3/5/2009 3:46:54 AM >

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RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Post #: 11

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 3:26:44 AM

MsFlutter

Posts: 1305
Joined: 11/12/2008
From: East Coast
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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

ETA: Either choose to debate it with that person, or ignore them. Don't drag other people into the middle of your argument!

Now I have to ask what ETA means in this context :)

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"The right data, filtered through an idiot, can yield a bad answer." einstien5201

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 12

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 3:35:19 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
I don't know about anyone else but the above post fits my definition of passive-aggressive.
ETA: Either choose to debate it with that person, or ignore them. Don't drag other people into the middle of your argument!

Then why get yourself dragged into it? If you see what you perceive as passive-aggressiveness, why add drama by posting an order? 'Cannot stop what people post/hijacking occurs etcetcetc yaddayaddayadda'
.circle.circles.circles.

the.dark.
(.andifthepointofmypostislostbecauseyoucannotunderstanditsexamplethenjustask.)

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Post #: 13

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 3:45:32 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkwind
If we didn't make obvious allowances for the use of words, and the varying definitions behind them there would be no point in trying for energetic and useful debate.

This is one of the best observations/statements for a long time on here. I was attracted to a post like this because it is a debatable topic rather than a 'whatshallwedo' or 'amIweird' topic that are simply cries for affirmation. Debate is totally different to telling people what to do and how they should do it. I find those that do debate, understand the fluidity of words and of life in general.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Post #: 14

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 4:38:18 AM

camille65

Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline

Sometimes I get a bit annoyed when the definition of a word morphs into something else, but I don't have much choice but to accept it. It is the nature of language.
Gay used to mean a bright sort of happy fun and now of course it holds a very different meaning.

As to the thread that got hijacked over 'fetish', well that annoyed me more than the understanding that 'fetish' has become widely accepted and used with an altered definition. No longer strictly held as an object it now encompasses actions.

IMO if the changing meaning of a word bothers someone to the point they are unable to stay on topic, then that thread should be avoided. If someone starts a thread and uses a word incorrectly because they misunderstand the definition then I see nothing wrong with tactfully correcting them so that the concept of the OP can continue and still be discussed.

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~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).

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Post #: 15

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 5:34:08 AM

OmegaG

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Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline

FR

ETA= Edit to add.

Words are fluid and dynamic, words today carry different meanings then they did in the past and in the future they will mean something else. To rigidly stick to one defenition, especially when words of common usage are being applied to new situations (after all slave/Master are variations of their original meanings, which where different 2,000 years ago then they were 200 years ago anyway.)

To me, the best example of this is the term "vulgar". When the Normans conqured England, the Anglo-Saxon peasants wished not to appear different from the ruling Norman's. One way to achieve this was to talk like the Norman's, Some AS words were considered vulgar, meaning at that time to be common or lower class language. Over the course of time vulgar meant dirty or preverse and it seems to me that now vulgar means trashy or tasteless.

I don't know what the original argument was about, it could be that the phrase that was used is a fluid phrase that doesn't have a common meaning, but it could also mean that someone is using it in a new way and that isn't wrong, so long as the communicator knows that he may have to define and defend his turn of phrase.

_____________________________

Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

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Post #: 16

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 5:44:31 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

Words can make you pay and pay
Four-letter words I cannot say
Panty, toilet, dirty devil
Words are trouble, words are subtle
Words of anger, words of hate
Words over here, words out there
In the air and everywhere
Words of wisdom, words of strife
Words that write the book I like
Words won't find no right solution
To the planet earth's pollution
Say the right word, make a million
Words are like a certain person
Who can't say what they mean
Don't mean what they say
With a rap rap here and a rap rap there
Here a rap, there a rap
Everywhere a rap rap

Tom Tom Club, Wordy Rappinghood .

_____________________________

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Post #: 17

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 6:07:55 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

I have very little time for people who deliberately ignore what someone means just to be snarky and nit pick. I may not choose to use the same term as you, if you use one that I believe is inappropriate but deliberately being rude isn't appropriate either.

Plus stamping my feet and insisting everyone else uses my definition wouldn't get me anywhere. YMMV

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

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Post #: 18

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 6:14:33 AM

angelic

Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline

~fr~ First time I heard my oldest son say "sick", I was thankful I was looking at his face. I knew in that instant that a word I had known all my life to mean not feeling well, having the flu, etc., suddenly meant "cool or awesome!" :P Funny things, words are.

_____________________________

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Post #: 19

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 6:46:50 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

Stone the bloody crows; I have so much fun with my friends in the US who don't understand Australian expressions. I once had a petition to ban me from Gor MSN for my opening comment "Stone the Bloody Crows" because in the minds of the uneducated, I was advocating stoning crows in a Biblical sense.... Strewth how the English language has changed during my life. Gay in Victorian times and even in Shakespearian times meant happy. Now if you describe someone who is filled with happiness as being gay and abandoned or happy and gay as being a happy homosexual! No wonder an ice-cream company changed the name of a popular ice-cream "Gay Time"! On one thread in Ask A Master I had some damned fool of a female castigate me when I told an enquirer that he needed to sort out if he was in a M/s or a D/s relationship as being archaic and trying to shove thing into boxes. Got news for you folks, for at least some of us to communicate we need to at least have a convention on what certain things mean in order to communicate. M's is Master (Mistress)/slave and D/s is Dominant/submissive. Each dynamic is different by nature of what I believe not a few here will agree with.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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Post #: 20

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