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RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 7:08:08 AM

DavanKael

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I agree, op, with the conceptualization of your post as passive aggressive. I am the person who corrected your wildly erroneous, though sadly common, use of the term fetish.
I believe in rigidity of adherence to the actual definition of the term followed by (potentially) further dialogue to flesh out the intricacies what a person is saying. Communication is a good thing. It allows us to understand where we stand with outselves, with one another, within the world.
Using a word improperly on purpose does a couple of things. It makes a person look foolish most often. It can also, as I pointed out on the other thread, can suggest pathology where there is none: ie: the common usage of 'fetish' is about playtime and fun and has nothing to do with the reality of an actual fetish.
And, it occurs to me that there's something untrustworthy about being so willy nilly with words. A person who habitually and knowingly uses inaccuracies strikes me as someone given to dishonesty and would thus be relegated, in my thoughts, to someone who isn't quite safe. Bad thing in this, or really any, lifestyle/relational preference/behavioral choice.
Davan

< Message edited by DavanKael -- 3/5/2009 7:10:35 AM >

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Post #: 21

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 7:39:28 AM

RCdc

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I agree with you to a certain point DavanKael because I do believe that the word in itself that you were discussing (Fetish) is an over used term that people confuse with the likes of the word 'kink' etc. However, your response to that other post was not helpful in addressing the issue, it merely came across as mocking and derisive(stricktly my opinion). You never attempted to address the issue nor enlighten people helpfully until pressed. In the case of the OP in question, there was no attempt to quantify what was meant to help clarify the intention of the OP.

The word 'fetish' appears countless times on the forums. So does slave, submissive, pet, switch, punishment, sadist - all these words have distinct definitions outside of BDSM. And yet they are used within this framework as a different identifier. Are people now supposed to refrain from using such markers, because their origins or standard set definition is not in line with BDSM definitions?

End of the day, fetish will be used within BDSM to mean something you do not believe to be true. It only weeds out for you, those who do not follow your ideas. End of the day, the word fetish appears in countless dictionaries with various meanings - from the spiritual - to the mental aspects that you were refering to. None of them are incorrect and all have substance.

It's nothing to do with people using words erroneously. It's about accepting that you might use definition (a) and another uses definition (b).

the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 3/5/2009 7:40:44 AM >

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Post #: 22

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 8:19:16 AM

LaTigresse

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I am very fluid in how I use words, creative. I even make up new words to fit, and just for fun. I call them LeeAnnisms.

I am fine with people either not getting, my LeeAnnism, or being more specific themselves. I do think it is petty and rediculous when I see threads derailed over nitpicky, disections, "but you said.........and here is the dictionary definition.......so what you really meant was...." To me, that is such nonproductive rubbish that makes those doing it appear more rediculous than the people they are trying to belittle.

I laugh at them or just ignore most of their posts.... If I wanted an english class I would go back to school.

Edited to add............I tracked down the other thread. Perfect example of the type of posters who's posts I totally skip over. Lots of petty "I am smarter than you and I can prove it" posting that really doesn't accomplish much beyond making those participating look like ..........fill in the blank......

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 3/5/2009 8:26:18 AM >

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Post #: 23

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 8:29:35 AM

roughleather

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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrTiger

Inspired by someone who tried to take over a thread I started and turn it into a bitching session over the common usage of one word I have decided to ask people their thoughts on the practical use of terminology and whether people think they should stick to absolutely rigid definitions or whether people are of the opinion that they can use terms with more fluidity of meaning.

I don't know about anyone else but the above post fits my definition of passive-aggressive.
ETA: Either choose to debate it with that person, or ignore them. Don't drag other people into the middle of your argument!

Agreed. Also, put in a comma once in a while. Arguing about terminology in the context of kink is just silly. It can be useful if you're trying to figure out Derrida or Kant, dealing with patent or plant classification, or working on a thesis. In the BDSM world, it's merely pathetic.

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 24

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 8:35:32 AM

DavanKael

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Joined: 10/6/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I agree with you to a certain point DavanKael because I do believe that the word in itself that you were discussing (Fetish) is an over used term that people confuse with the likes of the word 'kink' etc. However, your response to that other post was not helpful in addressing the issue, it merely came across as mocking and derisive(stricktly my opinion). You never attempted to address the issue nor enlighten people helpfully until pressed. In the case of the OP in question, there was no attempt to quantify what was meant to help clarify the intention of the OP.

The word 'fetish' appears countless times on the forums. So does slave, submissive, pet, switch, punishment, sadist - all these words have distinct definitions outside of BDSM. And yet they are used within this framework as a different identifier. Are people now supposed to refrain from using such markers, because their origins or standard set definition is not in line with BDSM definitions?

End of the day, fetish will be used within BDSM to mean something you do not believe to be true. It only weeds out for you, those who do not follow your ideas. End of the day, the word fetish appears in countless dictionaries with various meanings - from the spiritual - to the mental aspects that you were refering to. None of them are incorrect and all have substance.

It's nothing to do with people using words erroneously. It's about accepting that you might use definition (a) and another uses definition (b).

the.dark.

Hi, thedark----
I appreciate your respectful tone.
I actually kept my first reply in the other thread very brief because I was not trying to de-rail the guy's thread, simply to interject that there was a common but incorrect usage going on. I, later on, explained my thoughts on the matter because an issue was made of it. I replied, rather firmly to the op, because he became abusive in his reply which actually flows well into the overall picture he's painted of himself in my estimation (As do I reside, in his thoughts, as an annoying asshat at best...so be it). Ah, I am editing 'cause that reply got pulled. Apparently, it's okay for him to be verbally abusive but not for me to retort. One wonders at certain even-handedness.
In my opinion, the other terms you cited aren't as skewed in their usage as is 'fetish' in its popularization. For example "submissive" in D/s parlance really need not deviate terribly far from the actual definition, if at all. Same of the others you noted. 'Fetish' has come to be popularized into something that it, by definition, is not. Great example: I have a male friend whose boyfriend, because he has 15 pairs of shoes said that he has a 'shoe fetish'. Said friend likes shoes, enjoys having a good pair to accent whatever outfit he's wearing. He has a preference, in excess of what many males have, for shoes an an integral fashion accessory. He, in no way, is sexually excited by shoes nor does he need them to perform sexually. Thus, shoe preference, not fetish.
Note that I said I am willing to dialogue, in fact enjoy intelligently dialoguing, with people about their usages of words (I disagree all of the time with people who call themselves straight and have, for whatever reason, willingly had sex with people of the same sex) and respectfully disagree all of the time with erroneous usages.
I look at things from not only their intellectual base but from their visceral and emotional base, their developmental base, etc. There's something very unsafe, in my estimation, about people who use definitions in a habitually slippery way; ie: "What, I meant x; just because that word means y doesn't mean that that's what I meant." Communication, as I pointed out, is key.
Davan

< Message edited by DavanKael -- 3/5/2009 8:47:40 AM >

_____________________________

May you live as long as you wish & love as long as you live
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It's about the person & the bond,not the bondage
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Waiting is

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Jesus,I've ALWAYS been a deviant
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(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 25

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 8:39:41 AM

DavanKael

Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: roughleather

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrTiger

Inspired by someone who tried to take over a thread I started and turn it into a bitching session over the common usage of one word I have decided to ask people their thoughts on the practical use of terminology and whether people think they should stick to absolutely rigid definitions or whether people are of the opinion that they can use terms with more fluidity of meaning.

I don't know about anyone else but the above post fits my definition of passive-aggressive.
ETA: Either choose to debate it with that person, or ignore them. Don't drag other people into the middle of your argument!

Agreed. Also, put in a comma once in a while. Arguing about terminology in the context of kink is just silly. It can be useful if you're trying to figure out Derrida or Kant, dealing with patent or plant classification, or working on a thesis. In the BDSM world, it's merely pathetic.

Should we, then, abandon intellect in the single-minded pursuit of kink? How do people with whom you interact know what you are saying if you are not using some mutually agreed upon verbeage? Or, should we just go with the club over the head and dragging one back to the cave by their hair (Admittedly, this approach has its appeals...after meaningful dialogue, imo). :>
Davan

_____________________________

May you live as long as you wish & love as long as you live
-Robert A Heinlein

It's about the person & the bond,not the bondage
-Me

Waiting is

170NZ (Aka:Sex God Du Jour) pts

Jesus,I've ALWAYS been a deviant
-Leadership527,Jeff

(in reply to roughleather)

Post #: 26

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 8:47:28 AM

missturbation

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From: another planet
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quote:

I even make up new words to fit, and just for fun. I call them LeeAnnisms.

I do this too I use twinky when i'm horny and floopy when i'm having a bad reaction to a situation where i'm reading it wrong.

On topic lol i often object to terminology used in discussion here. I hate the word 'play' i don't play. I hate the word 'nilla' for me nilla doesn't exist. However i have got to the point where i now stop and draw the line at getting riled by the words people here used and try to see the bigger picture of what they are saying.

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(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 27

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 9:29:31 AM

RedMagic1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
Unlike redmagic, I do not believe that communication has nothing to do with what I say. To me, that is a cop out. I also do not believe it rests only on what other people perceive. If I want to make myself clear and for others to understand what I am saying, it is up to me to communicate in a way that is cool for myself and for those I am talking to. The responsibility of communication is with all parties. Depending where you are, and who you are with, you communicate the best way you can in that environment.

Well, clearly, what I "said" in my first post was not a good example of communication, because I agree with your position here, whereas you seem to think I don't!

Definitions and labels become a problem when they are used as clubs to beat other people. As in, "I learned definition X for word Y in school, so that is the only way anybody should ever use it, no matter what country or cultural background they are from." Or, flip side of the coin, "there is no true definition of word Y, so no one who uses word Y can ever mean the same thing every time they say it." It is arrogant to think, "My relationship to language is the same as everyone else's... and if it's not, they should all change!"

Correcting people on linguistic nits when they don't ask for advice is an annoying habit. "Correcting" people when you're wrong about something is just pompous.

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(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 28

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 9:49:24 AM

IronBear

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Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I am very fluid in how I use words, creative. I even make up new words to fit, and just for fun. I call them LeeAnnisms.

I also do this when I can't find an appropriate word to suit the occasion and am too lazy to oppen my thesaurus.. I call such words "Ursineisms" and my Lady refers to them as "Bear Speak".....

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 29

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 9:50:50 AM

hardbodysub

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quote:

There are no hard and fast rules on the definition and usage of words

While I agree with most pinkwind's post, I think the statement above goes a little too far. If there are NO hard and fast rules, we've got a verbal free-for-all where nobody understands anybody else. You gotta draw the line somewhere, sometimes. The problem is figuring out just where the line is.

Is a person free to define words in any way they see fit? Sure, I guess. They're also free to have nobody else understand them when they try to communicate.

(in reply to pinkwind)

Post #: 30

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 1:34:17 PM

beargonewild

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Yet what is it with not agreeing with the commonly accepted usage of a word or term? We all know that words can and do have several meaning BUT pertaining to what context they are used in. To me it's like two people arguing over a blue sky, one argues it's blue and the other argues it's pale blue: hell both are correct though it's redundant to be arguing in the first place.
From what I see, too many are overly sensitive when it comes to a simple agreement over the usage of terminology. Language is constantly changing and evolving. Makes more sense to me that there are more important things in life than trying to prove one's correct in the perfect usage of words. Common sense dictates that if a person incorrectly labels me or mine wrong, to simply correct them and continue being civilized.

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Post #: 31

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 4:11:18 PM

domiguy

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Great thread...Communication is important. I had an odd thing happen, my sub chose, "ram a cactus up my ass" as her safe word.

Life goes on.

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Post #: 32

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 4:36:18 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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And do you intend to honour her requiest if she uses it as a safe word? If so post pictures or a film clip please to entertain the troops here.

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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Post #: 33

RE: Use of terminology - 3/5/2009 7:48:08 PM

antipode

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quote:

there are people from all over the world posting messages

And you discovered this when? I kinda got used to it, after acquiring my first internet account in 1979, and my first laptop in 1984.. Differences of opinion with regard to the meaning of words or terminology I find are generally confined to situations where participants are trying to be clever with language, or using terminology to create the impression they know more than others. The advent of the $500 PC brought a host of people online with limited English skills, but they tend to weed themselves out - the foreigners tend to do a bit better than the high school dropouts, as the durn fahreigners (I are one) had to actually learn English.

(in reply to MstrTiger)

Post #: 34

RE: Use of terminology - 3/7/2009 8:04:16 PM

dcnovice

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<fast reply>

Language evolves. Always has, always will.

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it's never enough to keep up.

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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to antipode)

Post #: 35

RE: Use of terminology - 3/7/2009 10:43:07 PM

heartcream

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MarcEsadrian is a good writer.

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Post #: 36

RE: Use of terminology - 3/11/2009 5:18:46 PM

sfdrew

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It's a very interesting thing that happens to language in subcultures. Language tends to mirror the constructs it represents. In disciplines that are rigid and strict like Math and Science, terminology tends to be very strictly defined and abuses are treated with a raised brow of condemnation. Disciplines that are loose, fluid, and emotionally guided tend to have loose, fluid, and emotionally charged language. Because BDSM means so much to so many, I doubt it will ever pick up a truly well defined and adopted language of it's own, although I think the language conventions that do exist are pretty good, even despite the disagreements.

(in reply to heartcream)

Post #: 37

RE: Use of terminology - 3/11/2009 5:30:20 PM

pixidustpet

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~fast reply~

if every time you make a post, there are multiple misunderstandings, and you have to explain yourself time and again....

chances are the problem is NOT the people reading your statements. we have words on a screen to go on. no clues as far as inflection, body language, tone of voice, nuffin. just your words. if you use a word in an uncommon manner...you may be misunderstood.

if you use a local phrase that isnt one used worldwide? you may be misunderstood.

then again, some people have large sticks up their butts and argue with all comers just because they like to.

kitten

(in reply to sfdrew)

Post #: 38

RE: Use of terminology - 3/11/2009 5:36:46 PM

swiftrevenge

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This is so true. Some people will misread every thing that you say. I have been told what type of person I am by someone that has only read 5 or 6 lines of text from me.

(in reply to pixidustpet)

Post #: 39

RE: Use of terminology - 3/11/2009 10:26:41 PM

Interesdom

Posts: 197
Joined: 5/24/2004
From: England
Status: offline

Oh no! He's got me started...

quote:

ORIGINAL: zero69u2
More Confusing Terminology..
Coke, Pepsi, Soda, Pop, Shoodie, Cola, Coca-Cola,Dr.Pepper ---- depending on where your at in the USA.. or Europe.. Everyone has a different word for Soda.

In England we know what soda is. But it is something quite different to in the USA. Ask for a soda drink in the UK and you'll get some almost tasteless bubbly liquid to mix with a short (er, liquor).

quote:

ORIGINAL: zero69u2
Even English Terms elude Americans on other side of the pond. As we butcher our common Language.
the word aluminum is another good one.. How a Englishman says aluminum sounds totally different then the american prounceation of the word.

Nope, an Englishman would pronounce aluminum much as you would, IF he read the word correctly. But there's no such word outside of America. In the UK, Australia etc. that metal is called aluminium - and that's why we say it the way we do.

(in reply to zero69u2)

Post #: 40

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