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Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 12:11:12 PM

Termyn8or

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You must be getting slow in your old age or something. I thought I heard this on the news but didn't hear it all as I was at work. Then I heard it from someone else and I know I was not imagining things, or misunderstanding.

Now to my understanding GM got a check, you know the bailout. Now they are talking a possible chapter seven bankruptcy. Normally y'all are all over something like this. I mean give them a bunch of money, and one of the first things they do is to announce layoffs and now to announce that they might go into recievership or whatever. If so what happened to that money ? WTF ?

One would ask if they are going to go bankrupt, why not just do it before taking the money that was ostensibly to avoid that ? I know why, they wrote themselves a bunch of bonuses and intend to walk.

I have always liked GM cars, but I am now in the market for a car and I think I might look for a Ford, something I would almost never do in the past. Ford, from what I recall to date hasn't actually taken the bailout money as of yet, but they wanted it set aside for them because they predicted some hard times. To me it seems that if I need a replacement thingamabob for my Ford, they will be around. Perhaps we are looking at just having the "big two" now.

Ford has a very strong foothold in the truck market, and face it when you need a truck you need a truck. When we send the boys out to pick up a 70" Mitsubishi TV, I don't think Mitsubishi markets a large enough truck in the US to haul it, how about that ?

No matter what they say I smell a rat. If they just took that money and lined their pockets, and left to die one of the industries which impelled this economy for many decades, that is reprehensible. In fact I think it was criminal. In fact the simple announcement of this will probably hamper whatever meager succes the bailouts mat have in restoring the markets, because investor confidence is quite (understandably) very fragile right now.

What say you ?

T

Post #: 1

RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 12:16:08 PM

SteelofUtah

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Another reason that throwing Money at problems DOES NOT WORK.

The Laws that are already in place for these companies make Bail Out Funds just Free Cash, NO ONE IS RESPONSIBLE.

What really pisses me off is that we ALREAY KNEW this was going to happn and yet we KEEP DOING IT.

This is YOUR Money Folks you will be paying for this in Taxes for the next 30 years. Basically the Government bought a house and now you pay the morgage.

I have been writing letters since November.

Steel

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RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 12:21:42 PM

TheHeretic

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Ummm, Termy? Mitsubishi trucks are everywhere. Those little white cab-overs? The ones that deliver home electronics every day of the week? Clattery diesel engine? Might say "Fuso" on the grill?

I say let them go. Reserve any more bailout cash for zero-interest loans to other companies with a decent plan to use the facilities.

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RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 12:32:09 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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So, the auditors going over GM's books have concluded that the company probably will not be able to avoid bankrupcty.

Is there some reason the Federal government's auditors were unable to reach the same conclusion before we gave them all that money?

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RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 1:20:53 PM

SilverMark

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I am not so sure we haven't become somewhat immune to the troubles of GM....at one time I would have and did say that we couldn't allow for their demise....I am not so sure that a good case can be made to save them as is.

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RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 1:51:33 PM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

So, the auditors going over GM's books have concluded that the company probably will not be able to avoid bankrupcty.

Is there some reason the Federal government's auditors were unable to reach the same conclusion before we gave them all that money?

This is exactly what pisses me off. Why give a company that belongs in the scrap heap any type of leash? It sucks. Let them file and reorganize. I haven't researched it, do the pensioners have any type of a gov't guarantee? That would really suck and unfortunately might require more federal dollars.

It is difficult for many to watch an infomercial begging for your dollars to aid lil' Kabboosh, the Nigerian child, who is covered in flies and dying. Can you imagine the commercial where Jim and Betty Carpenter of Schaumburg, Il., two elderly blue hairs, whom are covered in flies and eating Alpo as the voice over begs for you to make a small contribution to aid the retired autoworkers of America.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 3/8/2009 2:31:18 PM >

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RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 2:05:19 PM

awmslave

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I like GM engineering better than Ford. I also value market principles. They just have grown into dinosaur. They should go through Ch. 11 and preserve viable line of production. They have good Vans for example, Cadillac sells well, some light trucks etc...

(in reply to Termyn8or)

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RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 2:07:10 PM

SilverMark

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DAMN Domi...I can't decide to laugh my ass off or to toss my cookies after reading that!

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RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 3:15:37 PM

Lorr47

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quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

I like GM engineering better than Ford. I also value market principles. They just have grown into dinosaur. They should go through Ch. 11 and preserve viable line of production. They have good Vans for example, Cadillac sells well, some light trucks etc...

GM would need liquidity for a Chapter 11, the ability to borrow. That seems to get us back at the bottomless pit called the banking system that takes money; squirrels it away; and then ends up broke which really sounds like GM where we started. The whole thing is a tautology.

< Message edited by Lorr47 -- 3/8/2009 3:17:02 PM >

(in reply to awmslave)

Post #: 9

RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 3:27:45 PM

Vendaval

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That is exactly what I want to know. Two careers seem to be recession proof right now, auditors and accountants trying to dig through the bookkeeping boondoggles.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

So, the auditors going over GM's books have concluded that the company probably will not be able to avoid bankrupcty.

Is there some reason the Federal government's auditors were unable to reach the same conclusion before we gave them all that money?

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RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 3:32:40 PM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

Another reason that throwing Money at problems DOES NOT WORK.

The Laws that are already in place for these companies make Bail Out Funds just Free Cash, NO ONE IS RESPONSIBLE.

What really pisses me off is that we ALREAY KNEW this was going to happn and yet we KEEP DOING IT.

This is YOUR Money Folks you will be paying for this in Taxes for the next 30 years. Basically the Government bought a house and now you pay the morgage.

I havebeen writing letters since November.

Steel

I agree. I mean just who did these guys think they were...AIG ? Citicorp ? Now the bankers and insurers...they know how to fleece the taxpayers, the givers who just keep on giving.

But it will not be chapter 7 for GM which is liquidation ('everything must go') so they have to be Chapter 11. Chapter 7 is just like the death of Circuit City. Funeral 'services' today.

This proves the the essential difference of capitalism as it applies to bankers and insurers, i.e., the paper-traders. Have you noticed...no bankruptcy at all for any of them. It would have to have been chapter 7 and well, we just can't have that, too many people needed (just had) to be paid and with our money...first. There is no liquidating or even trying to sell or 'reorganize' their shit-paper ?

So for the bankers and insurers they get fed a real good $2 trillion meal and dessert...we feel their pain. For manufacturers, the employees, well fuck them...they can go underwater.

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 11

RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 3:44:12 PM

MarsBonfire

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They went through this crap all before, if you remember... Only this time, they don't have Iaccoca to get them back on the right track. I'm sorry, but they should have realized the changing needs of the market after the first OPEC created fuel crisis. The Military may need Hummers, but the average citizen sure as hell doesn't.

Let 'em fail. If they don't survive, we have plenty of other car manufacturers to step in and expand their markets. It'll be rough as hell for about a decade around the towns that worked for GM and their parts suppliers... but, they'll eventually find new clients.

(in reply to MrRodgers)

Post #: 12

RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 3:51:02 PM

outlier

Posts: 1111
Joined: 10/22/2005
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Fast Reply,

I don't think Consumer Reports is the best automotive publication
by a long shot. there is much more to a car than interacting with a
washing machine or toaster. But the average person must pay some
attention or they would not spend so much time and space on cars.

If you go here: Consumer Reports Best Of Class For Cars

You will see that of all their "best" of only one is American. The Chevy Full Size Pickup.
No other American car even made the rankings in any class.
Not first , second, nothing.

As long as that is the "expert" and public opinion it does not matter
how much money we give them. Maybe that should be talked about
as they ask for more...and more...and more.....

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RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 4:02:12 PM

awmslave

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Joined: 3/31/2006
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quote:

GM would need liquidity for a Chapter 11, the ability to borrow.

I am not a specialist but in my understanding Ch. 11 is designed to give liquidity by eliminating some of the debt, reorganizing and selling part of the assets.

(in reply to outlier)

Post #: 14

RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 4:12:19 PM

MasterG2kTR

Posts: 6677
Joined: 8/7/2004
From: Wisconsin
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What everyone has failed to recognize here so far is that GM will more than likely file Chapter 11 Bankruptcy, if they file at all. Why Chapter 11? Because Chapter 11 is reorganization. It's an out that keeps them alive while allowing them to blow off the majority of their debt. Chapter 7 is total liquidation of assets, which then forces them to pay off debtors first, then employees, and then IF there is anything left, stockholders and company owners are last in line.

(in reply to outlier)

Post #: 15

RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 4:15:10 PM

Lorr47

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Joined: 3/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

quote:

GM would need liquidity for a Chapter 11, the ability to borrow.

I am not a specialist but in my understanding Ch. 11 is designed to give liquidity by eliminating some of the debt, reorganizing and selling part of the assets.

Perhaps looking at GM as a swamped scow is best. You may enable the scow to move by pumping some of the water off (eliminating debt) but you will need loans and liquidity to fill the gas tanks and allow it to get underway. (Probably so it can get in deeper water.) The problem is all those suppliers nationwide. I guess that is why it is called a depression although I have read a Fed Res analyst and an economist say it will be getting better by years end. I doubt that; more like seeing a train's light coming down a tunnel.

(in reply to awmslave)

Post #: 16

RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 4:37:05 PM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
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From: None of your business
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I think they do need to let one of these car companies die. I mean if there tomorrow were no more GM cars being, wouldn't that stabilize eventually the others, and ultimately lead to a better outcome.

Anyway, if they did liquidate (I know people are saying they won't but if they did file chapter 7), then I could pick up all kinds of useful stuff for pennies on the dollar. Pallet Racking, Fork Lifts (I need a good electric fork lift), and I'd simply love to have my own personal robot arm (the really big ones that install the windows) they use to assemble stuff, that would rock. Don't know what I'd use it for but i'll think of something. I really want an injection molding machine to, drool..... that would be hot.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 17

RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 7:04:33 PM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

So, the auditors going over GM's books have concluded that the company probably will not be able to avoid bankrupcty.

Is there some reason the Federal government's auditors were unable to reach the same conclusion before we gave them all that money?

This is exactly what pisses me off. Why give a company that belongs in the scrap heap any type of leash? It sucks. Let them file and reorganize. I haven't researched it, do the pensioners have any type of a gov't guarantee? That would really suck and unfortunately might require more federal dollars.

It is difficult for many to watch an infomercial begging for your dollars to aid lil' Kabboosh, the Nigerian child, who is covered in flies and dying. Can you imagine the commercial where Jim and Betty Carpenter of Schaumburg, Il., two elderly blue hairs, whom are covered in flies and eating Alpo as the voice over begs for you to make a small contribution to aid the retired autoworkers of America.

Well you are younger but there are those out here that have been pissed-off for the same reasons for 60 years. Taxpayers have been bailing out corporate America for that long at least for banks in so far as the FDIC has needed to hit up the taxpayers when running out of 'premiums.' Taking on the Railway Act, Chrysler, Lockheed, big agriculture, Over Seas investors...there's more.

Obviously, whatever propaganda necessary to convince what seems to be a solid minority of people of this country that somehow we still had something called a 'free market' after throwing trillions at the investor class...has worked as well as any propaganda in history.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 3/8/2009 7:06:06 PM >

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RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 7:56:26 PM

BoiJen

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In case anyone hasn't been paying attention, Ford just bought all of their debt...they soon won't owe anyone anything. They just need a line of credit to stay afloat.

As for GM, I feel that they have a far superior product to Ford. The Gm vehicles I have experience with are great. The engines need minor maintenance and the trannies are some of the best that American car makers put out there...the problem is the price. American auto makers charge much more than the average foreign car. GM is talking Chapt 11 not 7. As previously suggest by the gov't a reorganization of the company. The same gov't that is willing to give god knows how many more times the cash to bankers and AIG...companies designed to fuck the consumer.

Like the bumped sticker says...
"Out of a job yet?...keep buying foreign."

From,
a Detroit boi

Shuttin Detroit Down
John Rich

My daddy taught me in this country everyones the same
You work hard for your dollar and you never pass the blame
When it dont go your way
Now I see all these big shots whining on my evening news
About how their losing billions and its up to me and you
To come running to the rescue

Well, pardon me if I dont shed a tear
There selling make believe and we dont buy that here

Because in the real world their shuttin Detroit down
While the boss man takes his bonus paid jets on out of town
DCs bailing out them bankers as the farmers auction ground
Yeah, while there living up on Wall Street in that New York City town
Here in the real world their shuttin Detroit down
Here in the real world their shuttin Detroit down

Well that old mans been working in that plant most all his life
Now his pension plans been cut in half and he cant afford to die
And its a crying shame, cus he aint the one to Blame
When I looked down to see his calloused hands
Well let me tell you friend it gets me fightin mad

Cause in the real world their shuttin Detroit down
While the boss man takes his bonus paid jets on out of town
DCs bailing out them bankers as the farmers auction ground
Yeah, while there living up on Wall Street in that New York City town
Here in the real world their shuttin Detroit down

Yeah while there living up on Wall Street in that New York City town
Here in the real world their shuttin Detroit down
Here in the real world their shuttin Detroit down
In the real world their shuttin Detroit down
Their shuttin Detroit down

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RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 8:09:56 PM

MarsBonfire

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...and of course, as we all know, this is NOT just a way for republicans to bust the unions, right? And to cut loose the thousands of retired American workers who gave this company the best years of their lives, with the understanding that they would be taken care of in their old age... because, of course, THOSE will be the people who get screwed by this Chapter 11 reorganization.

Just sayin'...

(in reply to BoiJen)

Post #: 20

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