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RE: Stem Cell Research...your thoughts??? - 3/9/2009 9:11:27 PM

MarsBonfire

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Certainly Galileo's rights did depend on other people's fantasies. He ended up spending the rest of his life under house arrest, and having his family threatened with torture, if he should continue to speak the truth about the structure of the solar system. Bruno got burned at the stake for saying, "Oh, hey, guys... you know, there may be other planets out there with life on them... some maybe even more intelligent than us..." DaVinci was threatened before a tribunal for practicing the "black arts" by making his atonomical studies of the dead (which helped lead to our understanding of the human body's structure...)

Yeah, making decisions about science based on superstious beliefs has such a long, and rosy history.

Obama has announced that he's asking congress to draft legislation that will limit any one particular administrations ability to maim science in the future, the way Bush did so for purely political reasons. (He had joined the church after Laura threatened to cut off his pussy supply if he didn't stop drinking and doing coke... so he exchanged one mind altering addiction for another, when you get right down to it.)

(in reply to Lorr47)

Post #: 81

RE: Stem Cell Research...your thoughts??? - 3/9/2009 10:22:28 PM

MasterShake69

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or maybe they don’t think the federal government should be paying for either. ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs

quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim
And how many hapless human beings were murdered to get those results?

I'm guessing it's far fewer than the 18,000 to 20,000 hapless human beings who die in the US each year because they don't have health insurance.

Many of the same folks who are opposed to stem cell research because it may result in the destruction of a potential human don't seem to be too concerned about the fate of a grown-up human being who may die because they can't afford the care they need. I think that anyone who is opposed to stem cell research on moral grounds and is also opposed to universal health care is a flaming hypocrite.

(in reply to MmeGigs)

Post #: 82

RE: Stem Cell Research...your thoughts??? - 3/9/2009 10:28:33 PM

MasterShake69

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well if it was Christopher Reeve im sure he has enough in his bank account ;)
Or just give the Dr his next check he gets from a Smallville episode ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

Ah, Kittn, if only your criteria for choosing males were true... I'd be doing so much better in my social life... LOL

There has been some talk about this sort of medical research being funded and promoted by private sector corperations... Well, I don't know about you, but the idea that human genetic manipulation, and even the cures for various diseases being in the hands of a company who's only motivation is their bottom line... kinda squicks me out...

I can see the scenario now... Christopher Reeve (or someone very much like him) is lying there, his ventilator pumping away... and the officious rep from the company sits next to him... "I'm sorry, Mr. Reeve, but your insurance doesn't cover your treatment using our recently perfected means of re-growing your spinal cord injury...this cure is extremely expensive, and unless we can be assured of getting paid for it's use, we're going to refuse to allow it to be used. You simply don't have enough of a working life left to be able to make it worth our while..."

Much the way they already withold certain forms of treatment from cancer patients.

(in reply to MarsBonfire)

Post #: 83

RE: Stem Cell Research...your thoughts??? - 3/9/2009 11:15:16 PM

slaveboyforyou

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Christopher Reeve is dead; he has been for quite awhile.

(in reply to MasterShake69)

Post #: 84

RE: Stem Cell Research...your thoughts??? - 3/10/2009 1:31:57 AM

MasterShake69

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youre right Christopher Reeve has been dead for a while. If stemcells were able to make him walk today you would have to decapitate him ;)

http://www.amazon.com/Zombie-Survival-Guide-Complete-Protection/dp/1400049628/darrebaref-20/

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)

Post #: 85

RE: Stem Cell Research...your thoughts??? - 3/10/2009 6:01:42 AM

suhlut

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MarsBonfire.. just letting Ya know.. that i loved reading the things You have said in this thread!

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(in reply to MarsBonfire)

Post #: 86

RE: Stem Cell Research...your thoughts??? - 3/10/2009 6:27:15 AM

suhlut

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Going back a bit.. to the idea of designer babies

Lots of people hate what i am about to say.. but i could care less.. They Don't stand in my shoes.

While i hold onto great hopes in what is happening with stem cell research, both varieties.. Adult and embryo.. and that is in big part in hopes that either might help with finding a cure for those people already alive and living with diseases such as Huntingtons, ect..

Well.. i also have no real basis for such hopes that a cure will ever be found..or if so, made available.. and so.. i tend to think about how to ensure there is no future generations that need to suffer with these things.

So, yes... i am a proponent..in the idea of Genetic selection.. Its is a procedure that is already available.. to those who can afford it..
In this case... They can suction ripened eggs from the overies.. put them into a lil dish..and mix them with sperm. Everyone is with me so far..right? Test tube babies are a rather old concept.

But, it goes even further.. In that after the eggs are fertalized, those few dividing cells can be tested for their DNA.. Any that show that they carry the genetic disease are destroyed,and only those that are shown to be disease free, are to be implanted back into the mother.

It means the end to a terrible disease.. and still gives people the ability to have the children that they desire, rather then be told to not procreate at all.

Thing is, like i said, this is already a procedure that is available. to those whom can afford genetic selection.. but i think it needs to be funded in other ways also.. with insurance..for those whom are middle class and are insured.. and for the poor, through medicaid. Because sad as it is.. Diseases like Huntingtons don't affect only those who can afford ways to eradicate it.

Huntingtons disease.. most people don't even know what it is.. and as such think they are safe.. but in reality NOBODYS life is safe from that disease. My husband surely never thought about it.. but he is married to me..a person that potentially might have it, and he fathered offspring that might also be at risk.

Think about that, before passing judgement over me and my views and beliefs. I never asked to be born into a family that holds genetic disease, but even as such.. here I am.

_____________________________

That girl is pretty kinky
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(in reply to lronitulstahp)

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RE: Stem Cell Research...your thoughts??? - 3/10/2009 6:32:39 AM

whis31

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i work with children who have cancer. i'm all for stem cell reseach it if would save just one of these perious children i see ever day, and morn when one passes away.

(in reply to Maya2001)

Post #: 88

RE: Stem Cell Research...your thoughts??? - 3/10/2009 7:17:12 AM

samboct

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suhlut

I think genetic testing which would show a predisposition towards Huntington's chorea is going to be available within a decade- and affordable for most folks. It makes no economic sense to develop a $10,000 genetic test- the market is too small, but a genetic test for $100- the market is enormous. Prices of DNA analysis have been falling much faster than the stock market.

Sam

(in reply to whis31)

Post #: 89

RE: Stem Cell Research...your thoughts??? - 3/10/2009 8:00:23 AM

MistresseLotus

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From: (aka LotusSong)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama is ending former President George W. Bush's limits on using federal dollars for embryonic stem cell research, with advisers calling the move a clear signal that science — not political ideology — will guide the administration.

It's about friggin' time!

_____________________________

I leave it to the 20-somethings to do the "open-minded, total unconditional acceptance thing" for it's how THEY learn that all the things others older than they have deemed BS, are in fact BS. What a waste of a decade.

(in reply to lronitulstahp)

Post #: 90

RE: Stem Cell Research...your thoughts??? - 3/10/2009 8:03:04 AM

MistresseLotus

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From: (aka LotusSong)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs

I'm guessing it's far fewer than the 18,000 to 20,000 hapless human beings who die in the US each year because they don't have health insurance.

Many of the same folks who are opposed to stem cell research because it may result in the destruction of a potential human don't seem to be too concerned about the fate of a grown-up human being who may die because they can't afford the care they need. I think that anyone who is opposed to stem cell research on moral grounds and is also opposed to universal health care is a flaming hypocrite.

Well said!!!!

_____________________________

I leave it to the 20-somethings to do the "open-minded, total unconditional acceptance thing" for it's how THEY learn that all the things others older than they have deemed BS, are in fact BS. What a waste of a decade.

(in reply to MmeGigs)

Post #: 91

RE: Stem Cell Research...your thoughts??? - 3/10/2009 5:42:00 PM

suhlut

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Joined: 7/20/2007
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samboct

Like i said in my first post.. there already IS a test to check for Huntingtons... in adults..and also in youngsters who are risk of developing the juvinile form of huntingtons..

I made an apointment around three years ago, to be tested, but the Doctor, after showing me the blood work draw order.. refused to fill it out for me to get tested.
At the time, i noted that the DNA test would have cost 300 dollars..

It is an interesting fact that back when Scientists began mapping the genes in DNA (called the Human Genome Project) one of the first diseases to be mapped out and thus making them able to develop a test for a disease, was Huntingtons.

In DNA there are 4 spiraling threads, each given its own name.
C A G T
http://homepages.ius.edu/GKIRCHNE/DNA.htm
In Huntingtons.. three of those strands begin doing something called triple repeating. The C and A and G.
So, looks something like this:

C A G T
C A G
C A G
C A G
in everyones DNA... these start repeating, so there are normal counts and then after the count grows past a certain amount, then Huntingtons is diagnosed.
http://www.hdlighthouse.org/diagnosis/cag/updates/1299CAG.php

A count of 26 and under, means the person doesnt have the disease, a count of 27 on up to 120 mean various things, but from 40 on up, a person will develop the disease. The gray area is still an area being studied.

If you mean that a test might someday be made to test a fetus, that is already possible, just not while in utero.(perhaps it might be possible with a amniocentesis procedure, BUT that would mean aborting any fetus found to have the disease) http://www.thelaboroflove.com/articles/can-i-determine-my-babys-dna-while-pregnant/
The gene selection procedure i described would mean that only healthy eggs would be implanted, and not mean a possible later abortion.

Gene selection like i described before is ALREADY available, in the exact procedure i have described in the last post.
But, like i said..it is a costly procedure, to first perform the removal of eggs and mixing them with sperm in a lil dish, but further expenses come about with the further DNA testing, before only implanting the disease free eggs.

Still it should be available to everyone that has genetic disease, to help slowly eradicate the disease. Sure, i am certain not everyone would choose to use the procedure, and instead risk fate, but, it still needs to be something everyone can afford, or have provided.

_____________________________

That girl is pretty kinky
The girl's a super freak

SUPERFREAK ~by Rick James

(in reply to samboct)

Post #: 92

RE: Stem Cell Research...your thoughts??? - 3/10/2009 6:32:03 PM

aravain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Creation of embryos for the purpose of maintaining a ready supply of "spare parts"

And the Octomom gives us the worry that doctor's ethics and fore-thought may not be all it should be. Will these embrionic stem cells only come from the sources they currently come from or will the demand shift the ethics and the "acceptable" means of embryo generation spread?

Assuming that they're not moving past the embryo stage, I don't see the problem with this -at all-, then again I don't equate embryos with being 'alive' or any such thing.

If they had these sorts of centers where you could donate genetic material for scientific use I'd squirt in a cup for 'em, even if I didn't get money for it. I wouldn't ever *ever* donate sperm with the intention (or even possibility) of it being used to create a child, though. I don't want to be a father (genetically) to anyone, ever. What's wrong with people like me (or people who don't care either way) donating to organizations that need the genetic material to conduct the research? It's not going to be used, otherwise.

The only real 'slippery slope' is when they get paid for it... even then I don't see the big deal.

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 93

RE: Stem Cell Research...your thoughts??? - 3/11/2009 2:22:31 AM

Vendaval

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Thank you for sharing that bit of hopeful news.

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
It makes no economic sense to develop a $10,000 genetic test- the market is too small, but a genetic test for $100- the market is enormous. Prices of DNA analysis have been falling much faster than the stock market.

Sam

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So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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(in reply to samboct)

Post #: 94

RE: Stem Cell Research...your thoughts??? - 3/11/2009 3:09:40 AM

corysub

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Barack Obama fulfills a "campaign promise" and continues his agressive program of rescinding George Bush "executive orders" ...the latest being to permit government funds in the use of embryonic stem cells for research. Bush had banned funds for research on lines developed after August, 2001 which, to date, has not proven to show any positive results.
I'm am far from an expert on this issue but do understand that when you make ANY decision you do create a risk of unintended consequences. We saw that dramatically in the "mandate" to use ethanol and the major impact that decision had on food prices.

Stem cells could cause much more of a danger to a young woman than I have ever heard discussed in public. I'm taking no stance on this issue since it really is a personal choice about donating eggs. I do believe that in, all fairness, the "risks" should be carefully explained to woman as well as the possible important benefits to society.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sv7kGCfnL9Y&feature=related

http://www.bloggernews.net/18433

This link is from a pro life group, anti abortion group. Again, any choice with respect to abortion is a woman's choice. I have a daughter and would never want to put decision on her body in the hands of politicians, one reason I am so against socialized medicne in the the USA.
http://www.lifedynamics.net/Pro-life_Group/Pro-choice_Women/

(in reply to atursvcMaam)

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RE: Stem Cell Research...your thoughts??? - 3/11/2009 3:12:55 AM

subfever

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quote:

RE: Stem Cell Research...your thoughts???

Cures are not good for profits.

(in reply to lronitulstahp)

Post #: 96

RE: Stem Cell Research...your thoughts??? - 3/11/2009 4:26:04 AM

corysub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

RE: Stem Cell Research...your thoughts???

Cures are not good for profits.

Au contraire, the growth of the U.S. pharma and biotech industries and medical instrmentation companies is based on that busines model...finding leading edge therapy and meds for the treatment and cures of disease. Just look at the tremendous advances in chemo, for example, which are saving so many lives these days and the development of cancer markers. The development of Pet Scans, Cat Scans and all sorts of imaging machines and surgical instruments that can locate, define, be less invasive to a patients body....and on and on, have all improved survivability. It's also why I am so against socialized healthcare which is based on cost/benefit analysis and not on the use of the best drugs and procedures available in the markeplace. Do you think its there is no correlation between the fact that most of the significant drugs used these days were developed in the USA? We do not have a monopoly on brains, but we do have, until Obama kills it, tremendous incentives for our industry to spend the billion of dollars on pure research to find these new drugs and make a profit. I don't think the European drug companies, and there are many fine companies, have that same incentive with a National Health Board dictating prices and usage.

(in reply to subfever)

Post #: 97

RE: Stem Cell Research...your thoughts??? - 3/11/2009 5:09:13 AM

subfever

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In my opinion, the advances you mention treat symptoms, not causes. The reason there hasn't been an outright cure for a catastrophic disease since polio (over 50 years ago) is because there's no profit in cures. The Salk Vaccine taught Big Medicine not to kill cash cows.

Most drugs have been developed in the USA due to profit potential, and a government bought and paid for by the PTB who are friendly to the cause.

But like you, I'm against socialized medicine under the current system. But then, I'm also against the current system. It's all a matter of choice. Whether we speak of government or health care, do we want to treat symptoms with bigger and better band-aids, or treat the cause?

(in reply to corysub)

Post #: 98

RE: Stem Cell Research...your thoughts??? - 3/11/2009 7:05:07 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub
I don't think the European drug companies, and there are many fine companies, have that same incentive with a National Health Board dictating prices and usage.

I wish you'd stop confusing the United Kingdom and Europe - France has a system of nationalised health care that relies heavily on private medicine, which is the best in the world (according to the WHO).

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Post #: 99

RE: Stem Cell Research...your thoughts??? - 3/11/2009 7:13:49 AM

samboct

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"Au contraire, the growth of the U.S. pharma and biotech industries and medical instrmentation companies is based on that busines model...finding leading edge therapy and meds for the treatment and cures of disease.
Just look at the tremendous advances in chemo, for example, which are saving so many lives these days and the development of cancer markers. The development of Pet Scans, Cat Scans and all sorts of imaging machines and surgical instruments that can locate, define, be less invasive to a patients body....and on and on, have all improved survivability.
It's also why I am so against socialized healthcare which is based on cost/benefit analysis and not on the use of the best drugs and procedures available in the markeplace. Do you think its there is no correlation between the fact that most of the significant drugs used these days were developed in the USA? We do not have a monopoly on brains, but we do have, until Obama kills it, tremendous incentives for our industry to spend the billion of dollars on pure research to find these new drugs and make a profit. I don't think the European drug companies, and there are many fine companies, have that same incentive with a National Health Board dictating prices and usage."

I wish...and subfever is bang on that pharma companies love palliatives- hate cures. Wanna save BIG money in health care? Cure diabetes.

In terms of advances in cancer treatments- well, it ain't so great although there has been progress made in lung cancer. We've got treatments- they just don't work all that often- with some notable exceptions. We have been doing better with some childhood cancers.

Pharma's blockbuster business model is broken. The idea of billion dollar drugs that are going to be taken by large segments of the population is directly in opposition to the developments discussed in this thread- i.e. personalized medicine tailored to an individuals gene profile. Big pharma has had relatively few new drugs approved by the FDA (and I think your distinction between US pharma and European pharma is not as dramatic as you think- these companies are multinationals.) over the past several years even though they've been spending more money in R + D.

Pharma also doesn't develop diagnostic technologies including all the scanners you mentioned- those are companies like GE, Siemens, Hitachi and a few others. And it's highly debatable whether the scans taken have actually improved medical care- although the cost has certainly increased! That's because for a lot of ailments- the best treatment is to do... nothing and see if it resolves in a few months.

I'm all for Obama's push to actually start trying to correlate what advances in medicine actually have improved quality of life, and which are needless expenses. In terms of socialized medicine-our current system is broken and the pressing demand is to get the lawyers out. I'm also not impressed with the idea of insurance for most medicine- catastrophes maybe, but normal health care should not be a function of insurance any more than paying a heating bill.

Sam

(in reply to subfever)

Post #: 100

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