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The Validity of Clichés - 3/14/2009 2:34:13 PM

catize

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There are many clichés floating around the BDSM world. . One I see from time to time is that a person who has submitted to a previous dominant will struggle with the transition to a new relationship because the ‘new’ dominant has different expectations.

I don’t see any down side to experience. With experience comes the knowledge of what one is capable of giving or giving up.

Not only do I know what I like, but I also know what I can do without if the dominant does not like it. I know what I am willing/able to submit to whether or not I like that.

I don’t think it takes an Einstein to realize that every dominant is unique.
An analogy would be if I moved to a different place of employment. The job description (submissive) is the same. But each work place (dominant) has its own dress code, policies, and accepted manner of interactions. One is more
[or less] formal. One is more [or less] demanding about being prompt. My new job may be similar to the previous one, but I do expect there will be significant distinctions.

Basic facts of life do not bleed from my brain just because I am submissive in my intimate relationships! This side of the slash does not render me less confident or sensible.

Unfortunately, we do see a lot of ‘newbie’ submissives who seem to have lost their faculties. Yet there are just as many dominants who buy into this fallacy and promote it when they cite chestnuts like this. How many of those ‘newbies’ get their ideas from lines that are frequently repeated? How many of us read and accept truisms without considering whether they remain valid under scrutiny?

Do you think experience, or lack of, has a positive or negative impact on the D/s dynamic?

Are there clichés that make you grit your teeth and wonder if the writer has ever actually thought about it?

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

Post #: 1

RE: The Validity of Clichés - 3/14/2009 2:43:57 PM

slaveluci

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Yes. To me, the whole "lifestyle" or "WIITWD" thing is one huge boring cliche in and of itself. The idea that there is a "vanilla" world that is so unlike a BDSM world is just ludicrous to me let alone that the folks living in the "BDSM" world are more enlightened, advanced, open minded, accepting, etc. It's absolutely nothing less than stupid and utterly wrong to perpetuate such nonsense. So yeah, it's all one big goofy cliche in my little book.......................luci

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RE: The Validity of Clichés - 3/14/2009 2:48:03 PM

FullCircle

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I agree. What do we do when it isn't what we don't do, now that I would like to know? Also who is the we in this thing anyway?

It's funny especially when you consider the WIITWD thing came about as a result of truism and now we are saying this doesn't relate to us perhaps. So we know we all like different varied things how can you define that in the modern world when a lot of the things are accepted in ways they never used to be? What you end up with is a society trying to define what it is they share in common. This results in people creating codes and such for all these things. I can understand the ones regarding safety but others go way beyond that defining what it means to be this or that, whatever.

One of the funniest threads is where people try to find common points of reference for unique responses to a situation to define that thing to be true by majority agreement i.e. head space discussions to determine if you’ve truly experienced this space or that. Human responses are not always the same to stimuli so how can you create a true sense of anything, or dismiss someone else as only getting halfway to this experience or that?

I rest my case and once rested it cannot be opened.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 3/14/2009 3:00:08 PM >

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RE: The Validity of Clichés - 3/14/2009 4:13:29 PM

IronBear

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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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FR to both catize and slaveluci ~ If you see as I do the wider kink together with the BDSM lifestyle (As differing to that where people are only involved occasionally for a spot of fun or to get their rocks off), as one of the many sub cultures abounding in society, it would be difficult to see the whole as a cliché any more than to see any other sub culture including various religious and political sub cultures as clichés. However this is really a personal view and is going to vary according to the individual. My personal view in such cases where someone sees a group or a series of activities as nothing more than a cliché is of sadness that someone appears to find things there so boring that I wonder if they are jaded and need to find new pastures and new adventures to become involved in. Of course all this could easily be the result of burn out too..

< Message edited by IronBear -- 3/14/2009 4:15:48 PM >

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RE: The Validity of Clichés - 3/14/2009 4:33:38 PM

catize

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Fast Reply

Luci
< laughs> Busted! I do use clichés and my choice of “BDSM world” was simply because I didn’t know what other words to use!

FullCircle
Maybe it should be I Know What I Do What Do You Do (if that’s any of my business) IKWIDWDYD (itaomb)

IronBear
I don’t view the whole as a cliché. But I do think people should think about what a line actually means instead of just repeating it!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 5

RE: The Validity of Clichés - 3/14/2009 4:36:18 PM

IronBear

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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

Fast Reply

IronBear
I don’t view the whole as a cliché. But I do think people should think about what a line actually means instead of just repeating it!

But of course. I couldn't agree more. Still so many people are lazy aren't they?

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to catize)

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RE: The Validity of Clichés - 3/14/2009 4:49:51 PM

catize

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

Fast Reply

IronBear
I don’t view the whole as a cliché. But I do think people should think about what a line actually means instead of just repeating it!

But of course. I couldn't agree more. Still so many people are lazy aren't they?

Yes, I’d say it takes some effort to step away from a ‘truth’ we have held dear in order to re-examine it.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 7

RE: The Validity of Clichés - 3/14/2009 5:05:14 PM

IronBear

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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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The Measure

Let there be a Book of Measures. Give to every measure its hour and its day and its place and that only ~ so let it be binding in the place until another day and another hour comes that it be weighed again and found to lack balance.

1. Who shall make a Measure? Him who will and let him prove it as he will!

2. And if he prove it wrongly? Let another say: “This is not the hour!” If it is not the hour; or “This is not the day!” If it is some other time!

3. And how shall the balance be resolved? By truth is best, but if best is lacking, then by power of numbers, and, if numbers are lacking, then by power of rank be it resolved.

This is just for a measure must find its own mean! Therefore let there be a Book of Measures in which is kept all Measures within the rule, except that which is immeasurable, which is beyond understanding, which is within us and where it may be proved beyond doubt!

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 8

RE: The Validity of Clichés - 3/14/2009 10:17:09 PM

PrincessEllie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

Yes. To me, the whole "lifestyle" or "WIITWD" thing is one huge boring cliche in and of itself. The idea that there is a "vanilla" world that is so unlike a BDSM world is just ludicrous to me let alone that the folks living in the "BDSM" world are more enlightened, advanced, open minded, accepting, etc.

I agree. Anytime someone gets a little snooty about being D/s instead of vanilla, I just laugh and laugh and laugh. Having a different sexual lifestyle doesn't make us any better or worse, it just makes us different. We're still human beings with all of the flaws that come with it.

But at the same time, I think inside of D/s there are a lot of cliches that have a limited basis in fact. Yes, there are old leather daddy Doms who are total unrelentless anal retentive assholes about BDSM. Yes, there are retarded newbie girls and boys who have no idea what the fuck they are doing. And there are a lot of people who pretend to like BDSM, but are actually faking it and want nothing to do with it in actuality. But not everyone is a cliche, but BECAUSE there is a cliche, those people actually exist.

_____________________________

Sticks and stones
May break my bones
But whips and chains excite me
So tie me up
Or hold me down
And bite me baby, bite me!

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(in reply to slaveluci)

Post #: 9

RE: The Validity of Clichés - 3/14/2009 11:17:49 PM

SteelofUtah

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Sadly, Clichés are Clichés for a reason. The work for the majority of the time. Yeah they do not always apply but often times they are at least things that are universally understood even if not agreed with they are at least understood.

As for being different..... We are different. If we weren't then we would have no issue being who we are in all situations but we cannot come right out and explain the relationship between our partners and us to everyone. And when we finally do find the need or the purpose it is a crap shoot of understranding. Maybe they will and maybe they won't.

The hardest part for people to accept is that we are a social Minority, Homosexuality is more easily accepted than what we do. the reason that terms like "Lifestyle" and "WIITWD" get used is because they are universally understood by those in the know. I can let someone else know something without having to interupt the flow of something else.

I know there are people who thing that these phrases are one true wayisms but I disagree. None of these phrases carry with them a mandatory behavior however they can be inclusive of all people who understand and have heard of that particular phrase.

What upsets me more than Clichés are the people who because a term cannot define them all terms have no meaning. When a person says I will be submissive only if the person is willing to do This, This, This, This, and This and when I say this they have to do this, because I am a Submissive I am NOT a slave. I just get that look on your face like you have just witnesses something that defies the laws of physics. I mean what in the fuck is the difference bettween those two things that has an exact difference? There isn't one. However when you point this out you somehow just don't get it or just haven't beet around long enough.

What upset me more than Clichés is someone who comes into this lifestyle and after a few weeks of dealing with every Cyber Samuari and Keyboard Kowboy that a site has to offer starts in with the Slashie Speak and calls themselves a No Limits Slave, to which I ask if thier Master wanted to Fuck them with a Set of Razor Blades and then Practice Vore with them they would be okay with that, First they go No that would be insane and then they go what is Vore. (Google it if you want an explanation)

You see what upsets me aren't the things that have to repeated OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again because of all the idiots who didn't get it or don't want it to apply to them in the first place it's the fact that some people honestly don't understand that there is often a process to self discovery and that fantasies don't usually feel the way they do whjen playing out in your head and that there are terms we have to accept because they are universally used.

I mean we all know what a person is getting at when they say "Lifestyle" and after someone explaines what "WIITWD" Stands for we all understand what they were trying to say, just like we have come to use "s-type" and "D-Type" because Dominant and submissive are Politically correct anymore when you say Dominant and submissive while refering to them everyone still gets the picture.

What Upsets me more than all the above are people who want their very own definition because they find themselfs to be utterly unique in what it is they like to do, as far as I am concerned call yourself whatever you want, if you need a special title to make it easier to live with yourself that's fine I just learned to be okay with who I am, and leave all the special titles to those who want to bicker about them.

Steel

**Forgive me if I missed the point, just venting on what I find rediculous**

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RE: The Validity of Clichés - 3/15/2009 12:12:42 AM

catize

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Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:

Sadly, Clichés are Clichés for a reason. The work for the majority of the time. Yeah they do not always apply but often times they are at least things that are universally understood even if not agreed with they are at least understood.
<lots of other stuff>
**Forgive me if I missed the point, just venting on what I find rediculous**

I’m not talking about acronyms, other people brought those up.
If a cliché is not true all of the time, then we shouldn’t use them as if they are always true. That’s my point. But I enjoyed your post.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

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RE: The Validity of Clichés - 3/15/2009 12:32:12 AM

HeavansKeeper

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Catize, there's a great discussion in what you brought up, but I'm having trouble grasping what the focus of the thread is.

Are we discussing the trends, memes, zeitgeists, and commonalities in BDSM that bother us?

Dealing in absolutes (if that's the sort of cliched occurrence we're discussing), in any capacity, is tricky stuff. Predicting the future in an absolute manner is similarly futile.

In terms of "good advice" that forms self fulfilling prophecies, there is also much to say. Aim my gun, I'll do the rest, Catize.

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RE: The Validity of Clichés - 3/15/2009 3:24:00 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

I don’t think it takes an Einstein to realize that every dominant is unique.

Now that is a cliche!

How unique? Surely we share common ground......

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: The Validity of Clichés - 3/15/2009 3:41:18 AM

Roselaure

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah
What upset me more than Clichés is someone who comes into this lifestyle and after a few weeks of dealing with every Cyber Samuari and Keyboard Kowboy that a site has to offer starts in with the Slashie Speak and calls themselves a No Limits Slave, to which I ask if thier Master wanted to Fuck them with a Set of Razor Blades and then Practice Vore with them they would be okay with that, First they go No that would be insane and then they go what is Vore. (Google it if you want an explanation)

I admit it, I googled "Vore". Now there's a hard limit! But of course I never claimed to be a "no limits" slave

People like to think of themselves as unique, and I suppose we are, in terms of the combination of traits and experiences that makes us what we are. But what draws us together is our commonality, our shared humanity. It's fun and oddly comforting when we find someone who likes the same quirky thing that we do.

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Once conform, once do what other people do because they do it, and lethargy steals over all the finer nerves and faculties of the soul.
-Virginia Woolf

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RE: The Validity of Clichés - 3/15/2009 3:51:01 AM

CatdeMedici

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quote:

Do you think experience, or lack of, has a positive or negative impact on the D/s dynamic?

No, I think common sense or lack thereof does.

quote:

Are there clichés that make you grit your teeth and wonder if the writer has ever actually thought about it?

Yes, sadly there are far too many.

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"Let's see-whips, dips, chains, chips, yep sounds like a party to Me!"

(in reply to catize)

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RE: The Validity of Clichés - 3/15/2009 4:42:07 AM

feydeplume

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The cliche that i find most commonly espoused AND believed is that "there are X many men for every woman on this site". It applies to every possible dating/hook-up/meeting site that is co-ed (yeah i don't think men out number women on lesbian dating sites, but i could be wrong) . Why it bothers me is that the math does work out and it buys into the myth that women desire men less than men desire women. It is a subtle, mean, and stupid cliche that perpetuates the social norm that women don't actually like sex and are only in it for the relationship.

Now a lot of people (male-through-female) desire relationships are their favorite sexual kink, no doubt there, but the idea that there are (usually) 10 men to every woman on a dating site just doesn't add up. Yet we, the collective we, doesn't doubt or test or wonder about this.

*rattles her empty piggy bank looking for more pennies*

_____________________________

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If it has testicle or tires, it's gonna give you the fidgets.
Pretend I said something witty and laugh.

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RE: The Validity of Clichés - 3/15/2009 5:08:56 AM

DesFIP

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From: Apple County NY
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It wouldn't be a cliche if there wasn't some truth to it. Dominants also can be stuck in past relationships, idealizing them and criticizing every sub they talk to for not being as perfectly submissive as their ex was while conveniently forgetting that the ex wasn't like that the first time they met.

Now I was a newbie and I must tell you that he said it was refreshing because the previous 3 or 4 he had met had all said "But that isn't how my ex did it" and it irritated him enormously. Beyond that, most people I know do stay where things are familiar so they don't have to adapt. Plus the older I get, the less I am willing to adapt to doing things that make no sense for me, are uncomfortable (like sleeping on the floor because that's where slaves belong) and so on. And you can't compare this to a job because home is the place one escapes to after working at a job and home should be someplace you want to go. But if home is now as unpleasant and uncomfortable as work, and needlessly so, then there is something wrong. But we live together and that makes it different then when you aren't 24/7 and have your own home to go to after leaving his place where you are needlessly uncomfortable and subjected to needlessly unpleasantness.

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RE: The Validity of Clichés - 3/15/2009 5:56:51 AM

LadyPact

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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
I’m not talking about acronyms, other people brought those up.
If a cliché is not true all of the time, then we shouldn’t use them as if they are always true. That’s my point. But I enjoyed your post.

By that line of thinking, we should never use any particular word unless it has a singular definition. What you are preferring is aclichébe an absolute, when really all it needs be is a general understanding of a probable result due to past examples. Something that happens often enough in similar circumstances for it to most likely be true.

To your question of whether I think experience or lack thereof, has a positive or negative effect on a D/s dynamic, I would say it is impossible to answer. There are too many factors which would also contribute to a dynamic which are unknown. For example, a sub can have experience in serving a drink to her former Dominant. If that sub is unwilling to change how a drink is served to her new Dominant, that's a problem. If she's willing to learn the new way, the past experience doesn't become an issue. Same with inexperience.

From the other side, if you're talking about the Dominant, and that Dominant happens to like S/m play as a Top, inexperience could be an issue. An experienced one could be a problem too, if their ego has gotten so big that they believe they no longer make mistakes or have been doing it 'so long' that they ignore safety.

There aren't cliches that make Me grit My teeth. I get that for every general rule, there will always be exceptions. Someone might have to show Me that they are that exception, but that doesn't mean the majority of probable truth doesn't exist.

< Message edited by LadyPact -- 3/15/2009 5:58:17 AM >

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Post #: 18

RE: The Validity of Clichés - 3/15/2009 8:07:33 AM

catize

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Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:

Are we discussing the trends, memes, zeitgeists, and commonalities in BDSM that bother us?

Yes. Questioning if they hold true instead of assuming they do.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

Post #: 19

RE: The Validity of Clichés - 3/15/2009 8:09:21 AM

catize

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Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:

Now that is a cliche!

Yep, it is!

quote:

How unique?

Let me count the ways!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 20

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