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RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq - 3/19/2009 9:14:56 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Why stop at Iraq? Why pick it as the starting point? Iraq came about due to the failure of 'Desert Storm'.


Failure?

Let's recap.

Iraq invaded Kuwait.

We drove Iraq out of Kuwait.

Somehow I think that falls under the mission accomplished banner.

Bush Sr. was smart enough to realize what Jr. didn't. 

Remember Powell and the Pottery Barn rule?

Well we broke it and now we bought it, and regardless of whether most of the troops are withdrawn this is going to a bottomless money pit for years to come.

quote:

The USA entered into WWII first as a 'vendor', and eventually as a participant as a catalyst to get us out of the last depression.


Really?

And it had nothing to do with that little incident at Pearl Harbor?

quote:


The US entered into a depression because it, and it's citizens spent money they didn't have. Spending was encouraged by the expansion of credit. Credit was available when 'gold' was no longer backing the currency and more paper money was printed.


We were still on the gold standard then, in fact until Nixon took us off it in the early '70's.

quote:


Therefore, every President the USA has ever had shares part of the blame but ultimately; the "money mess" was created by god.

Now that the critical issue of blame has been settled - which part of the 'plan' instituted by this Administration is pointed to addressing any of the economic issues of unemployment, burgeoning deficit, and lack of investor confidence?


That's a tough one.

Could it have anything to do with the stimulus package that you apparently already have judged a failure when it's barely been implemented?



(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq - 3/19/2009 9:23:16 AM   
ienigma777


Posts: 283
Joined: 2/20/2009
Status: offline 		Hey Guys;
Isn't it abit odd, that, during the Bush years we didn't need a 'Stimulus Plan'....the economy was going along just fine. The focus we all had was to avenge 9-11, stop terrorism on our doorstep, protect our country, protect our children from terrorists, make the WORLD safe for democracy. Just listen to Mr. Bush's speech at the onset of his 'Necessary Military Action'.....it wasn't a WAR...it was just a military action. For 8 years the economy was just fine, people were buying houses at 3 times their actual value, banks were lending money, credit was readily available, the stock market was good, business was thriving......few warned of impending doom, but hey, these were just discruntled partisan mutterings. More and more money was appropriated to protect this country from terrorism which threatened the entire world. Saddam had WMDs ready to be deployed, ready to annihilate cilivization as we know it.
Iraq's Terrorism consummed the entire media with all the 'experts' showering us with their accessments of the current events.
There was no need of any focus on commerce, haliburton's had a lock on the economy......and now we need a 'Stimilus Plan'.
I say, we need a return to the years when credit flowed like a river; where homes soared in value, where jobs abounded, where our focus could be on more important issues, like ...if the world poker Tournament would be cancelled or not. HomeLand security was taking care of our country's security.
When Bush reigned.....ANY AND ALL opposition was shouted down; and if that did not surffice we could always blame Clinton and insult Hillary.
None of those media experts talk about the impeeding threat of terrorism, Al Queda, Talliban, now......No, now it's some 'Stimulas Plan'.
Oh, wait, the bailout.....hell yes....and the bonus money....Those executives worked hard. Now it's all bout' eCONome.
Bring back those good ol' days.....a day without blood is like a day without sunshine. WAR, actually is, piece. A piece of that, a piece of this.

As for the Bush legacy....not many went down in the history of the United States of America as being the worst US president ever. And as far as being a world leader...Bush being the worst in the history of the world.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq - 3/19/2009 9:31:16 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Why stop at Iraq? Why pick it as the starting point? Iraq came about due to the failure of 'Desert Storm'.

Failure?
Let's recap.
Iraq invaded Kuwait.
We drove Iraq out of Kuwait.
Somehow I think that falls under the mission accomplished banner.
Bush Sr. was smart enough to realize what Jr. didn't.  Remember Powell and the Pottery Barn rule?
Well we broke it and now we bought it, and regardless of whether most of the troops are withdrawn this is going to a bottomless money pit for years to come.
quote:

The USA entered into WWII first as a 'vendor', and eventually as a participant as a catalyst to get us out of the last depression.

Really?
And it had nothing to do with that little incident at Pearl Harbor?
quote:

The US entered into a depression because it, and it's citizens spent money they didn't have. Spending was encouraged by the expansion of credit. Credit was available when 'gold' was no longer backing the currency and more paper money was printed.

We were still on the gold standard then, in fact until Nixon took us off it in the early '70's.
quote:

Therefore, every President the USA has ever had shares part of the blame but ultimately; the "money mess" was created by god.
Now that the critical issue of blame has been settled - which part of the 'plan' instituted by this Administration is pointed to addressing any of the economic issues of unemployment, burgeoning deficit, and lack of investor confidence?

That's a tough one.
Could it have anything to do with the stimulus package that you apparently already have judged a failure when it's barely been implemented?
Rule,
My extemporaneous diatribe points to the fact that after the big bang - everything else is a consequence of a prior act. Sorry you didn't appreciate it on that level.

I identify failure by the obvious ignorance details, not in theory, but in practice; specifically by the AIG example but not limited to it. A nearly 50% withdraw rate due to background scandals of the appointees supports that belief.

However, you are right this new Trillion dollar plan hasn't even started, but once again, you answer is belief and provides no benchmarks or path defining success. 'Time' is not a path or plan - its time. Where will the private sector jobs come come from, where will the investments originate, where are the investors being cultivated?

Now if you are a 100% government employment and cradle to grave government nanny-hood; I can give you the expected path and plan. It seems to be the only direction the arrow points. However, I'm willing to consider another possible eventuality - I just haven't heard it yet; from you, or this Administration.


PS - I'd be happy to debate the distinction of what occurred in the 70's under Nixon to the separation of funds employed in the US relative to its gold reserves; which occurred MUCH earlier, but again - the references, including Pearl Harbor, where extemporaneous. Picking up on them may distract, but bottom line - where is the outcry from people holding your position on this issue - to get out of Iraq NOW? That used to be a pretty common theme on these message boards as well as the talking head news reporters. However, when something can actually be done to accomplish this goal - the silence points to more than simple hypocrisy and discloses an agenda.

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq - 3/19/2009 10:09:01 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Picking up on them may distract, but bottom line - where is the outcry from people holding your position on this issue - to get out of Iraq NOW? That used to be a pretty common theme on these message boards as well as the talking head news reporters. However, when something can actually be done to accomplish this goal - the silence points to more than simple hypocrisy and discloses an agenda.


Yes there is an agenda, and it goes back to the "we broke it, we bought it" thing.

Once we committed ourselves to this fiasco leaving it without stabilizing the situation would most likely lead to an Iraqi civil war.

My problem, and I think that of many others, was Bush refusing to set any time line for withdrawal.  It was always an open-ended "when we achieve victory" without defining what victory was.

I've said this before, it wasn't until Maliki endorsed Obama's withdrawal proposals during the campaign that Bush finally agreed to a timetable for withdrawal.



(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq - 3/19/2009 10:43:12 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

I've said this before, it wasn't until Maliki endorsed Obama's withdrawal proposals during the campaign that Bush finally agreed to a timetable for withdrawal.
You better take a close look at that "withdrawal" plan. It contains more 'if/than' provisions than a graduate level logic class exam. Odds are that a escalation and increase in troop levels can be part of the "withdrawal".

Also, I don't recall that a redeployment of these troops to Afghanistan was included for consideration in the pre-election 'Anti-Iraq' War campaign platform. Meritorious or not - one occupation versus another can be supported because of a change in Administration?

It is so damn entertaining and interesting to see the politics of  'status quo' being supported so vehemently by those who less than six months ago screamed for 'CHANGE!'. Whether using the "we broke it" rationalization, to the justification of Bush Stimulus II, because Bush Stimulus I didn't go far enough, to the acceptance of the Administration's naiveté concerning the Bonus language in the bail out bill, to the fact that Dodd and Obama where the top two benefactors of direct AIG contributions whose executives just so happened to benefit by the stimulus and specific Bonus language written into the Bill by one, and signed by the other. 

Damn - if that doesn't point out how NOTHING has or will 'CHANGE!' what else will? But then again, to admit that would require the ability to give and hold an opinion without knowing or caring the political party affiliation of the protagonist. From what I read here - that's just not possible for most.

I didn't expect or want perfection from this Administration. What disturbs me, and surprises me, is the lack of confidence that prohibits it from speaking the truth to the American public. If there was any meaningful 'CHANGE!' to be had, it would come from that confidence. But no - the Administration, and you, are singing to the melody of the old standards; "its not our fault", "we didn't know", "we can't to anything about it". 

Bottom line: No difference - No Change. Should an angry and motivated majority realize that reality; it would be a great starting point for a grass roots effort to affect the change we ALL need and would welcome.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 3/19/2009 10:48:02 AM >

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq - 3/19/2009 4:15:44 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Also, I don't recall that a redeployment of these troops to Afghanistan was included for consideration in the pre-election 'Anti-Iraq' War campaign platform. Meritorious or not - one occupation versus another can be supported because of a change in Administration?


You recall incorrectly.
A campaign promise that Barack Obama will keep | Independent, The ...
The dispatch of 17,000 extra American troops to Afghanistan is in keeping with Barack Obama's pledge on the campaign trail that he will focus military and foreign policy on a country which was neglected, with dire consequences, by the Bush administration when the "war on terror" moved on to Iraq.

And the difference between Iraq and Afghanistan is one country attacked us and the other didn't.


quote:




It is so damn entertaining and interesting to see the politics of  'status quo' being supported so vehemently by those who less than six months ago screamed for 'CHANGE!'. Whether using the "we broke it" rationalization, to the justification of Bush Stimulus II, because Bush Stimulus I didn't go far enough, to the acceptance of the Administration's naiveté concerning the Bonus language in the bail out bill, to the fact that Dodd and Obama where the top two benefactors of direct AIG contributions whose executives just so happened to benefit by the stimulus and specific Bonus language written into the Bill by one, and signed by the other. 


Again, you keep speaking of this "bonus language in the bailout bill" without offering any documentation on what this "bonus language" is and conveniently ignoring that this was Bush's legislation, not Obama's.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq - 3/19/2009 4:43:44 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

And the difference between Iraq and Afghanistan is one country attacked us and the other didn't.
Really when? Where was I? If you are referring to 9/11 more people were from Saudi Arabia. Is war with Saudi Arabia on the horizon with this Administration using that same logic?

quote:

While Obama "electrified and motivated his liberal base by vowing to ‘end the war' in Iraq," the Times states, as the transition advances he is now singing a very different tune. The president-elect is "making clearer than ever that tens of thousands of American troops will be left behind in Iraq, even if he can make good on his campaign promise to pull all combat forces out within 16 months." TROOP WITHDRAW REALITY


quote:

Again, you keep speaking of this "bonus language in the bailout bill" without offering any documentation on what this "bonus language" is and conveniently ignoring that this was Bush's legislation, not Obama's.


Maybe you'll take Dodd's word for it...
quote:

Senate Banking committee Chairman Christopher Dodd told CNN Wednesday that he was responsible for language added to the federal stimulus bill to make sure that already-existing contracts for bonuses at companies receiving federal bailout money were honored. BONUS LANGUAGE


Of course he points to his boss wanting the language in the Bill (same source):
quote:


Dodd, a Democrat, told CNN's Dana Bash and Wolf Blitzer that Obama administration officials pushed for the language to an amendment designed to limit bonuses and "golden parachutes" at those companies.


Feel free to contradict, with sources, either Dodd's position or the fact that the President now claims not to know it was part of the Bill he signed.

As much as you'd like to put President Bush back in office. The Bonus payout could not have been paid without the second round of Bush Stimulus II; written by Congress, amended by Senator Dodd, and depending on who you choose to believe, with or without full approval and authorization of President Obama.

Then again - maybe tomorrow there will be another answer once all the people get their stories straight. It seems from Tuesday to today - things have been mis-remembered differently. (As confusing as this quote from the same source).
quote:


Dodd also said in the statement that his comments on Tuesday and Wednesday to CNN did not conflict.

"I answered a question by CNN [Tuesday] night regarding whether or not [an exemption before] a specific date was aimed at protecting AIG," he said. "When I saw that my comments had been misconstrued, I felt it was important to set the record straight -- that this had nothing to do with AIG."

According to a transcript of the Tuesday interview, Dodd was asked about an executive-compensation provision "that exempts everything prior to February 11, 2009 -- any contracts prior to that date."

He said that language was not in the version of the bill that left the Senate and that he was not one of the negotiators who hammered out a compromise between the House and Senate versions of the plan.

"I can't point a finger at someone who offered a change at all," he said.

Asked whether he had later been able to figure out who added the language, he said, "I really don't know."

In Wednesday's interview, Dodd never said his Tuesday comments had been misunderstood.

"Going back and looking, I apologize," he said when questioned about his words from the day before.


But he IS sorry - that's something right?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 3/19/2009 5:12:05 PM >

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq - 3/20/2009 11:56:59 AM   
gman992


Posts: 120
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		I know...I know. Remember the good days in Iraq when women walking the streets would be randomly taken, thrown into prison, and then systematically raped. In fact, I remember the time when they took a woman, raped her, killed her, and then deposited her remains at her family's frontdoor. I remember the good days when Saddam would casually wipe out entire villages with one VX cannister. Talk about saving money!  I remember the good days when ordinary citizens just suddenly disappeared without a whim. I remember the good old days of mass graves where millions of people were killed.  I remember the good old days of buying off UN members by stroking the fears of the murder of innocent babies that Saddam really didn't give a care of. I remember the good days when any dissent was crushed without any regard of human life. I remember the good days when Iraqi citizens didn't have the right to vote. I remember the good days when Iraq plotted to destroy both Iran and Israel by building a nuclear bomb. I remember the good old days of prisons where people never returned from. I remember the good days when Saddam's sons would kidnap 13-14 year old girls--budding on the cusp of womenhood--and rape them, and then threaten their parents with death if they demande justice. I remember the good days of Saddam welcoming his brother in law in open arms and then putting a bullet in the back of the head. I remember the good old days when people who spoke out against Saddam had their tongues pulled out with pliers. I remember the days of testing chemical weapons by throwing them into crowded prison cells with "guilty" prisoners. I remember the good old days when Saddam would hide weapons that he said he didn't have in his palaces and hospitals and schools. I remember the good days when three UN resolutions weren't followed--and then when they were followed people--they still complained. (I mean these people are like girls--you can still make them cum and cuddle afterwards, but they will still have something to complain about). I remember the kid prisons that Saddam had where children as young as 13 were taken off of the streets, never to see their parents again. I remember the good old days when Saddam bulldozed an innocent village to the ground because he thought they were out to get them. But, more importantly, I remember the good old days when politicians cried and bitched about human rights, but DID NOTHING other than complain about it...as if Saddam and Hitler would just stop what they were doing because someone told on them. I remember the good days when Saddam supported terrorists. I remember the good old days when Saddam gave money to families of sucide bombers who killed innocent people. I remember the good old days when Saddam tried to kill a U.S. president. I remember the good old days when he gave money and training to terrorists. I remember the good old days of Salmon Pak where Saddam trained terrorists to take over and hijack airplanes. I remember the good old days when Saddam gave shelter to Abu Abass, the guy who killed Leon Klingover and threw his wheelchaired body overboard in 1985. I remember the good old days when Saddam gave shelter to Abu Nidal--the most wanted terrorist in the world before Osama. I remember when the Clinton Administration charged Iraq with given support to other terrorists including Al Queda.  The sad fact of the matter is that the left hates GWB is because he has the balls to do something about while they only have the balls to complain about it---hence the war protester-the gutless politician--especially, again, people who say that they are for human rights but really don't care.  Besides, if anyone, who should have gone into Iraq, it should've been those people who call themselves liberal.  And since when do people on the left or call themselves "liberal" complain about spending the government's money? They spend money like Paris Hilton on an all-night spending binge.

< Message edited by gman992 -- 3/20/2009 12:09:42 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq - 3/20/2009 1:02:24 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline 		Have you heard of this new language tool called paragraphs?

(in reply to gman992)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq - 3/20/2009 1:37:53 PM   
Crush


Posts: 1031
Status: offline 		Good job, rule...focus on form, not the substance...typical distractor technique

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq - 3/20/2009 1:40:35 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline 		Sorry, but it gave me a headache trying to read it.

Feel free to provide a translation.

(in reply to Crush)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq - 3/20/2009 2:02:43 PM   
Crush


Posts: 1031
Status: offline 		Wow, talented at avoidance too!


_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq - 3/20/2009 2:55:19 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

Wow, talented at avoidance too!



Yes, my talents are so many I lose track sometimes.


(besides I think it must have given you a headache too or I woud be seeing the translation)


< Message edited by rulemylife -- 3/20/2009 2:57:28 PM >

(in reply to Crush)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq - 3/20/2009 3:48:55 PM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline 		6 Years $684B
3 Months $787B and counting...

Let's see where Hussein is at and the end of his first term before we compare spending, ok?

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq - 3/20/2009 3:54:39 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

6 Years $684B
3 Months $787B and counting...

Let's see where Hussein is at and the end of his first term before we compare spending, ok?


See now - here's how things get messed up when trying to make these comparisons between Administrations. You have to get the basic facts straight...

It is 2 Months as of today. January 20th - March 20th

(in reply to subrob1967)
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RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq - 3/20/2009 3:56:11 PM   
Slavehandsome


Posts: 382
Joined: 9/19/2004
Status: offline 		The Pottery Barn rule?  LMAO  "We broke it (Iraq) so we bought it" hmmmm, classic pundit logic.  I don't guess "the Pottery Barn rule" applies when you don't want it to, like oh say, the families involved in Waco?  We broke that, but didn't buy it.  The judge ruled that the infrared video showing the tank firing into the building and starting the fire wasn't 'admissible evidence' and that the jury 'could not take that into consideration'.  Nah, the Pottery Barn rule is one to pull out when we want to keep stuck on the Tarbaby.  Had they come up with the Pottery Barn rule back in Vietnam?  What's your position on that? 


(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq - 3/21/2009 4:13:30 AM   
subboi3382


Posts: 379
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline 		lol
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: subboi3382

at least we found their WMDs


HUH?

Do please explain this.



I think it was a joke.

~ WishfulThinker


Ah, OK.

It was late, my brain wasn't working.


(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq - 3/21/2009 8:35:06 AM   
Crush


Posts: 1031
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

Wow, talented at avoidance too!



Yes, my talents are so many I lose track sometimes

(besides I think it must have given you a headache too or I woud be seeing the translation)



Naw...it feel it is your responsibility to do your own translation...I'm not your "sub"....Just copy/paste to your Wordpad or whatever and make the font bigger.

BTW...distractor number 2...wow...talent...


_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq - 3/21/2009 12:50:41 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Slavehandsome

The Pottery Barn rule?  LMAO  "We broke it (Iraq) so we bought it" hmmmm, classic pundit logic.  I don't guess "the Pottery Barn rule" applies when you don't want it to, like oh say, the families involved in Waco?  We broke that, but didn't buy it.  The judge ruled that the infrared video showing the tank firing into the building and starting the fire wasn't 'admissible evidence' and that the jury 'could not take that into consideration'.  Nah, the Pottery Barn rule is one to pull out when we want to keep stuck on the Tarbaby.  Had they come up with the Pottery Barn rule back in Vietnam?  What's your position on that? 




I assume you're replying to me.

Pundit logic?

Only if you consider Colin Powell a "pundit".


Pottery Barn didn't sell the U.S. its policy on Iraq
.................with the publication of "Plan of Attack," Washington Post editor Bob Woodward's account of the decision-making behind the war, based on hours of interviews with administration officials.

Among the juicier revelations is that Secretary of State Colin Powell cautioned the president that getting involved again in Iraq could subject him to what Powell called "the Pottery Barn rule:" ... "you break it, you own it.



(by the way, what exactly does this mean: " Nah, the Pottery Barn rule is one to pull out when we want to keep stuck on the Tarbaby."?)

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 3/21/2009 12:53:15 PM >

(in reply to Slavehandsome)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq - 3/21/2009 12:56:55 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

BTW...distractor number 2...wow...talent...



Yes, I did already agree with you on my vast talents.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 3/21/2009 12:58:06 PM >

(in reply to Crush)
Profile   Post #: 40
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